Topic: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

I'll be running N/A 2.3, 373 rear, mild brake upgrades, and complete weight reduction (even the sound deadener.)  I'd love to get opinions on tire size (running 15" wheels,)  Tire type,  top speed in NH and Thompson based on a setup like this, and whether or not I remove the whole hatch,   window only, or keep the whole hatch assembly.

Thanks for your guidance.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

We run a similar FOX Thunderbird, while they still last I can recommend the Dunlop Direzza Z-II Star Spec. No news yet on the Z-III but if the roll out of the Z-II was any indication, expect high tread wear until the "Star Spec" version comes out.

Unfortunately in the Z-II the widest you can get in 15's is 205. the car came with 225/60-15's

225/45 gives you some options Goodrich, Khumo, Toyo
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSear … iameter=17

Sadly the now "Official Tire of Lemons" doesn't come in 15's

When researching the car I was working on before the T-Bird the opinion was to leave the whole hatch with window on as it helps aero, keeps weight on the back, and keeps the exhaust from rolling back in on you.

Not sure with the 2.3, but assume maybe 100 on a really really good straightaway entry? MAYBE? Probably lower, and your speedo won't read right anyways with the 45 series tires, FOX Mustangs are pretty blocky cars and the NA 2.3 has a lot of work to do above 80 to shove the air out of the way.

Good luck removing the Asphalt Sound Deadener. It sucked. Dry Ice only Kinda worked on it.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

205s or 225s would be ok.  245s if you can find a tire in a good compound and have a wheel with a good offset to handle them without rubbing something.  We run the star specs and replace two every race.  You may want a less expensive compound to get through your cars teething races.   

Our teams runs a 5.0.  We run the car in both configurations - with the hatch and without.  When it's inclement weather, we run with the hatch.  I like to run with it anyway (with the window) because it helps with the noise and wind buffeting.  There is less driver fatigue so they can concentrate for longer stints and not come out of the car exhausted.  When it's nice out, we reduce the weight and take the whole hatch off (two bolts under the roof and it's off.  Be aware that the latch is in the hatch and needs power, so if, like us, it's going to go one and off you need to get power to it.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Guildenstern wrote:

Good luck removing the Asphalt Sound Deadener. It sucked. Dry Ice only Kinda worked on it.

My multi tool made easy work of it.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

brianstrange wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Good luck removing the Asphalt Sound Deadener. It sucked. Dry Ice only Kinda worked on it.

My multi tool made easy work of it.


MULTITOOL! I even had one of those! Why didn’t I think of it?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Going with wider than a 225 tire on a 4 cyl. Fox is not going to help much. If you want to stay with 15's I would go with a 205/50-15 and just be prepared to change a couple of tires at some point duing the race. Hauling around bigger rubber only makes the engine work that much harder and will slow you down. If you're trying to get the car as light as possible then going bigger shouldn't be required.
While 15 wheels are easy to find I think  that going up to 16's may give you more options on tires.
You can get  225/50X16 in #200 tires.


I've built 2.3L engines for Lemons and there are a few tricks to making good power using stock parts. Unless it's a turbo block I would not spin it over 6K and do not let it over heat as the head gaskets will let go if the engine is allowed to get to hot.

I have also road raced a Fox Mustang in club racing and with the proper mods they will handle.

If you want to discuss just PM me.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

While we run a 2.3T, this will still apply to the NA. We run Cometic MLS head gaskets, now. We've managed to get it quite hot w/o any gasket failure. We're also running head studs, so that might've helped.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

DelinquentRacer wrote:

While we run a 2.3T, this will still apply to the NA. We run Cometic MLS head gaskets, now. We've managed to get it quite hot w/o any gasket failure. We're also running head studs, so that might've helped.


The head studs more then likely are the reason. But "better" head gaskets can't hurt.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

brianstrange wrote:

I'll be running N/A 2.3, 373 rear, mild brake upgrades, and complete weight reduction (even the sound deadener.)  I'd love to get opinions on tire size (running 15" wheels,)  Tire type,  top speed in NH and Thompson based on a setup like this, and whether or not I remove the whole hatch,   window only, or keep the whole hatch assembly.

Thanks for your guidance.


If you like, I should have two or three sets of 16" wheels I'll be looking to sell.   I'll even leave the tires on them (225/50/16 some Falken Azenis and some Direzza Star Specs). 

The car you are describing is what we won class C with at Loudon three years ago.  We ran with the hatch off, but with a sprint car wing mounted on the roof.

I'd suggest going to 4.10 gears.  We ran 4.30 at Loudon, and still never turned over 5300 in 4th gear.

If you'd like to chat about what we've done, shoot me an email.

"She's a brick house" 57th out of 121 and 5th in Class C, There Goes the Neighborhood 2013
"PA Posse" 21st out of 96 and 2nd in Class C, Capitol Offense 2013.
"PA Posse" 29th out of 133 and Class C WINNER, Halloween Hooptiefest 2013
"PA Posse" 33rd out of 151 and 2nd in Class C, The Real Hoopties 2013

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

racinrob wrote:

If you like, I should have two or three sets of 16" wheels I'll be looking to sell.   I'll even leave the tires on them (225/50/16 some Falken Azenis and some Direzza Star Specs). 

The car you are describing is what we won class C with at Loudon three years ago.  We ran with the hatch off, but with a sprint car wing mounted on the roof.

I'd suggest going to 4.10 gears.  We ran 4.30 at Loudon, and still never turned over 5300 in 4th gear.

If you'd like to chat about what we've done, shoot me an email.

I think we're going 205 50 15.  That would change the gearing a bit, and keep the mass down.    Did the wing help?  I would think that would slow you down quite a bit.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

We are at the pointy end of class A... running 205-50/15’s.   They’ll be plenty of tire for a 4 cylinder....  lots cheaper too.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

we also run the  Dunlop Direzza Z-II Star Spec on our HEAVY 84 Trans Am...good tires and they last. I don't think you will be carrying a ton of speed w/ the 4 banger so the smaller tire isn't going to be an issue. I hope it is a stick car... otherwise it will be a dog out of the corners.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Ran a fox body a couple years ago but had the 5.0 in it
if your running the 2.3 there are lots of turbos out there for dirt cheap
keep your rpms below 5500-6000 and that little motor will sing
I would def ditch the 15's and run a 16" rim. More tire choices. We are running a 89 ranger this year with a 87 mustang drive train (5.0/c4)

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

So another though has crossed our mind, deleting power steering.    What are the thoughts on tracking without power steering?   We're running sn95 LCS's so we should have lots of caster and camber.   I had good experiences with converting a fox rack to manual when I built my FFR Cobra.   How would this transfer on a track car?    I figure it's a few HP gain, and 20 lbs off the front end.....

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

It's been done but you will need to build up your upper body or die trying. 
The funny thing is that Ford did sell the base model Fox Mustang without power steering early in it's life.
So if you can get a "real" manual rack the steering effort won't be so high.

I did a quick check at RockAuto and they do sell them so their out there!

16 (edited by -SDR- 2018-02-25 09:41 PM)

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

jimbbski wrote:

....if you can get a "real" manual rack the steering effort won't be so high....

I don't know if Ford did the same with the Fox racks, but there is a full steering wheel rotation difference between the manual Pinto rack (4) and the power one (3). What you might gain in ease will take longer to steer.  Anything above walking speed with the manual converted power rack is very manageable, at least with a Pinto.  Heck, in my turbo Bobcat Auto-X car I have a Howe 2/1 reducer making it 1.5 lock to lock and the steering effort is less that one might expect at speed. Low speed (pits), not so good....


Bill

2020 I.O.E. CT #36 The Rootes Of All Evil,1958 Sunbeam Rapier Convertible (YES 1958!!) & 2019 Judges Choice NJMP
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

brianstrange wrote:

So another though has crossed our mind, deleting power steering.    What are the thoughts on tracking without power steering?   We're running sn95 LCS's so we should have lots of caster and camber.   I had good experiences with converting a fox rack to manual when I built my FFR Cobra.   How would this transfer on a track car?    I figure it's a few HP gain, and 20 lbs off the front end.....

No way... you'll be wrestling that thing for  about 2 hours.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Mr.Yuck wrote:
brianstrange wrote:

So another though has crossed our mind, deleting power steering.    What are the thoughts on tracking without power steering?   We're running sn95 LCS's so we should have lots of caster and camber.   I had good experiences with converting a fox rack to manual when I built my FFR Cobra.   How would this transfer on a track car?    I figure it's a few HP gain, and 20 lbs off the front end.....

No way... you'll be wrestling that thing for  about 2 hours.


Yuck, did you try it?  Do you use "Pull down to steer" technique?

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

brianstrange wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
brianstrange wrote:

So another though has crossed our mind, deleting power steering.    What are the thoughts on tracking without power steering?   We're running sn95 LCS's so we should have lots of caster and camber.   I had good experiences with converting a fox rack to manual when I built my FFR Cobra.   How would this transfer on a track car?    I figure it's a few HP gain, and 20 lbs off the front end.....

No way... you'll be wrestling that thing for  about 2 hours.


Yuck, did you try it?  Do you use "Pull down to steer" technique?

I have driven plenty of cars with manual steering. I'm not sure why anybody would want to try that for 2 hours on a road course. I'd rather find a way to make more HP and take weight from someplace out.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

We deleted power steering 4 years ago and have done 4-5 races a year since with no problems. It's a little heavy in the pits but you don't notice on the track. We have done 4 hour stints with no complaints from both young/fit and old/fat drivers.

Car is around 2400 lbs with steering box (not rack) so your results may vary but I would not have power steer in a Lemons car, it's just one more thing to go wrong and cost time on track.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Ditto what Brett says.  Manual rack on a Lemons car.

If it is a newer fancy SCCA car like our Spec E46 then I’d keep it as you will spend the money to make sure everything is perfect.   

Our Spec E46 is a little more vague feeling to me even though it was waaaay more expensive to build.  I like the steering feel in our 30 year old E30 with the manual rack better.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

22 (edited by jimbbski 2018-02-26 10:42 AM)

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

The manual rack does have more turns "lock-to-lock" but if you ever have to turn the wheel more the 90 deg. on a race track your in trouble!

The other think about just depowering a Fox PS rack is that to make the Fox chassis handle you have to add quite a bit of pos. caster. in the range of 5-8 deg. and I've heard of some running more.  With that much caster the steering will not be "lighter at speed" much if at all.

The amount of power you'd gain is not going to help you win in Lemons.  A 4 cyl. Fox Mustang is a class c car most times but if well prepared or as it gets developed over multiple races it may end up in B. If going for a class win then driving clean and smart, making quick pit stops, in other words "not screwing up" will get you a high finish and not just more power!

Boost the power level of the 2.3L by using stock parts from various year models of this engine is what you should be looking at.
First go to a Pick N Pull and snag a Ranger "roller cam and rockers" from a 2.3L. The better cam and lower friction just gained more HP then you will gain depowering the rack. Pull the head and have 0.060 milled from the head. You have now raised the com/ ratio to near 9:1 and retarded the cam a couple of degrees.  Both mods will net you more power in the RPM range you will see on track.

These two mods, along with some porting of the cyl. head is what allowed a 2.3L powered Lemons car (Not Ford)  to win Class B twice.  The car was then moved into class A where it's was underpowered  but without any further mods ran in the top 10 overall in a couple of later races..  .

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

jimbbski wrote:

The manual rack does have more turns "lock-to-lock" but if you ever have to turn the wheel more the 90 deg. on a race track your in trouble!

The other think about just depowering a Fox PS rack is that to make the Fox chassis handle you have to add quite a bit of pos. caster. in the range of 5-8 deg. and I've heard of some running more.  With that much caster the steering will not be "lighter at speed" much if at all.

The amount of power you'd gain is not going to help you win in Lemons.  A 4 cyl. Fox Mustang is a class c car most times but if well prepared or as it gets developed over multiple races it may end up in B. If going for a class win then driving clean and smart, making quick pit stops, in other words "not screwing up" will get you a high finish and not just more power!

Boost the power level of the 2.3L by using stock parts from various year models of this engine is what you should be looking at.
First go to a Pick N Pull and snag a Ranger "roller cam and rockers" from a 2.3L. The better cam and lower friction just gained more HP then you will gain depowering the rack. Pull the head and have 0.060 milled from the head. You have now raised the com/ ratio to near 9:1 and retarded the cam a couple of degrees.  Both mods will net you more power in the RPM range you will see on track.

These two mods, along with some porting of the cyl. head is what allowed a 2.3L powered Lemons car (Not Ford)  to win Class B twice.  The car was then moved into class A where it's was underpowered  but without any further mods ran in the top 10 overall in a couple of later races..  .

Time for a Breadwagon Turbo, I think.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

therood wrote:

Time for a Breadwagon Turbo, I think.

Indeed.  Ever since I watched the Star Wars Porsche with the turbo 2.3 Lima belching out flames on every downshift, I've had turbo envy.  I wanted to do the conversion but before I could pull the trigger, two of my A&D drivers made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  I've been working on Willy and Bob ever since to add the snail to the BV's powerplant..... but my pleas fall on deaf ears.  I've even sent them CL ads for clapped-out 'Stang SVO donors!

C'mon Willy... DO IT!

Darren

Bad Mojo Racing
1971 Opel GT "Breadvan"
2012 - April Gingerman (Ercole Spada Award) and October AutoBahn (19th in Class B, 52nd OA )
2013 - April Gingerman (8th in Class B, 25th OA) and June AutoBahn (WINNER Class B, 9th OA)

25 (edited by Fishah 2018-02-26 12:54 PM)

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

brianstrange wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
brianstrange wrote:

So another though has crossed our mind, deleting power steering.    What are the thoughts on tracking without power steering?   We're running sn95 LCS's so we should have lots of caster and camber.   I had good experiences with converting a fox rack to manual when I built my FFR Cobra.   How would this transfer on a track car?    I figure it's a few HP gain, and 20 lbs off the front end.....

No way... you'll be wrestling that thing for  about 2 hours.


Yuck, did you try it?  Do you use "Pull down to steer" technique?

Just to jump in here, the pull down the steer technique may work in NASCAR, but it's not good a road-racing technique. If you're new to this, practice locking your hands to 9-3 and never move them. If your steering is too heavy, put the seat closer to the wheel, and hit the gym.

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