Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

therood wrote:
jimbbski wrote:

The manual rack does have more turns "lock-to-lock" but if you ever have to turn the wheel more the 90 deg. on a race track your in trouble!

The other think about just depowering a Fox PS rack is that to make the Fox chassis handle you have to add quite a bit of pos. caster. in the range of 5-8 deg. and I've heard of some running more.  With that much caster the steering will not be "lighter at speed" much if at all.

The amount of power you'd gain is not going to help you win in Lemons.  A 4 cyl. Fox Mustang is a class c car most times but if well prepared or as it gets developed over multiple races it may end up in B. If going for a class win then driving clean and smart, making quick pit stops, in other words "not screwing up" will get you a high finish and not just more power!

Boost the power level of the 2.3L by using stock parts from various year models of this engine is what you should be looking at.
First go to a Pick N Pull and snag a Ranger "roller cam and rockers" from a 2.3L. The better cam and lower friction just gained more HP then you will gain depowering the rack. Pull the head and have 0.060 milled from the head. You have now raised the com/ ratio to near 9:1 and retarded the cam a couple of degrees.  Both mods will net you more power in the RPM range you will see on track.

These two mods, along with some porting of the cyl. head is what allowed a 2.3L powered Lemons car (Not Ford)  to win Class B twice.  The car was then moved into class A where it's was underpowered  but without any further mods ran in the top 10 overall in a couple of later races..  .

Time for a Breadwagon Turbo, I think.

you say that like you think it already has one.  it doesnt

Your Miata Parts Pimp

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Alferrari Fistillini wrote:
therood wrote:

Time for a Breadwagon Turbo, I think.

Indeed.  Ever since I watched the Star Wars Porsche with the turbo 2.3 Lima belching out flames on every downshift, I've had turbo envy.  I wanted to do the conversion but before I could pull the trigger, two of my A&D drivers made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  I've been working on Willy and Bob ever since to add the snail to the BV's powerplant..... but my pleas fall on deaf ears.  I've even sent them CL ads for clapped-out 'Stang SVO donors!

C'mon Willy... DO IT!

Darren

Every once in a while we talk about that. and quickly nix it for reliability reasons.  Right now we have enough pains keeping the car together, we have to get past our growing pains before we add another demon to the car.

Your Miata Parts Pimp

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

jimbbski wrote:

The manual rack does have more turns "lock-to-lock" but if you ever have to turn the wheel more the 90 deg. on a race track your in trouble!

The other think about just depowering a Fox PS rack is that to make the Fox chassis handle you have to add quite a bit of pos. caster. in the range of 5-8 deg. and I've heard of some running more.  With that much caster the steering will not be "lighter at speed" much if at all.

The amount of power you'd gain is not going to help you win in Lemons.  A 4 cyl. Fox Mustang is a class c car most times but if well prepared or as it gets developed over multiple races it may end up in B. If going for a class win then driving clean and smart, making quick pit stops, in other words "not screwing up" will get you a high finish and not just more power!

Boost the power level of the 2.3L by using stock parts from various year models of this engine is what you should be looking at.
First go to a Pick N Pull and snag a Ranger "roller cam and rockers" from a 2.3L. The better cam and lower friction just gained more HP then you will gain depowering the rack. Pull the head and have 0.060 milled from the head. You have now raised the com/ ratio to near 9:1 and retarded the cam a couple of degrees.  Both mods will net you more power in the RPM range you will see on track.

These two mods, along with some porting of the cyl. head is what allowed a 2.3L powered Lemons car (Not Ford)  to win Class B twice.  The car was then moved into class A where it's was underpowered  but without any further mods ran in the top 10 overall in a couple of later races..  .

the car has 3 b wins   but shhhhh  wink

Your Miata Parts Pimp

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Alferrari Fistillini wrote:
therood wrote:

Time for a Breadwagon Turbo, I think.

Indeed.  Ever since I watched the Star Wars Porsche with the turbo 2.3 Lima belching out flames on every downshift, I've had turbo envy.  I wanted to do the conversion but before I could pull the trigger, two of my A&D drivers made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  I've been working on Willy and Bob ever since to add the snail to the BV's powerplant..... but my pleas fall on deaf ears.  I've even sent them CL ads for clapped-out 'Stang SVO donors!

C'mon Willy... DO IT!

Darren

I tried to get Willy to let me build him another engine making more power; still using stock parts; but he wasn't interested.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Will a"Turbo coupe" motor drop in? Take the stick and all

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

All 2.3L engines will fit into any car that came with them OEM, Turbo or non-Turbo.

For Lemons using the Turbo version is attractive  because of the power but their record for finishing races is not so good.
Keep the engine non-turbo and stay in class C until you have proven your car, yourself,  and your team to yourselves.

Then and only then consider up-grading the engine.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

jimbbski wrote:

All 2.3L engines will fit into any car that came with them OEM, Turbo or non-Turbo.

For Lemons using the Turbo version is attractive  because of the power but their record for finishing races is not so good.
Keep the engine non-turbo and stay in class C until you have proven your car, yourself,  and your team to yourselves.

Then and only then consider up-grading the engine.


The pre-78 blocks only have the oil dipstick tube hole for a front sump oil pan.  The 78 and later have a place for the dipstick tube for both front and rear sump pans.  Also, in 88 or so they changed front seal cover and the rear main cap for a different pan gasket.

I agree, the N/A is much more durable, but sometimes that depends on the driver.....


Bill

2020 I.O.E. CT #36 The Rootes Of All Evil,1958 Sunbeam Rapier Convertible (YES 1958!!) & 2019 Judges Choice NJMP
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

jimbbski wrote:

All 2.3L engines will fit into any car that came with them OEM, Turbo or non-Turbo.

For Lemons using the Turbo version is attractive  because of the power but their record for finishing races is not so good.
Keep the engine non-turbo and stay in class C until you have proven your car, yourself,  and your team to yourselves.

Then and only then consider up-grading the engine.

This is our Plan.  Turbo gives us a HP boner, but I may eye other NA options once we outgrow the 2.3

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

Stick to the mantra:

Make it safe
Make it last
Make it handle
Make it fast

10x loser (Arse-Freeze '11 - Vodden '15) 1x WINNER! Arse-Freeze '14 in the Watermelon Volvo Wagon
Swedish Knievel Skycycle('90 Volvo 740 Wagon)

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

jimbbski wrote:

Boost the power level of the 2.3L by using stock parts from various year models of this engine is what you should be looking at.
First go to a Pick N Pull and snag a Ranger "roller cam and rockers" from a 2.3L. The better cam and lower friction just gained more HP then you will gain depowering the rack. Pull the head and have 0.060 milled from the head. You have now raised the com/ ratio to near 9:1 and retarded the cam a couple of degrees.  Both mods will net you more power in the RPM range you will see on track.

These two mods, along with some porting of the cyl. head is what allowed a 2.3L powered Lemons car (Not Ford)  to win Class B twice.  The car was then moved into class A where it's was underpowered  but without any further mods ran in the top 10 overall in a couple of later races..  .

Jim, when we mill the head .060, does that retard the cam by default, or do we need an adjustable cam sprocket.    I read that you mill, then retard the cam.  My initial thought was mill the head, set cam at zero after the mill, then retard the cam 3 degrees.   I guess my question is do I need an adjustable cam sprocket, or does the mill automatically give you the 3 degrees when using a stock sprocket?

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

brianstrange wrote:
jimbbski wrote:

Boost the power level of the 2.3L by using stock parts from various year models of this engine is what you should be looking at.
First go to a Pick N Pull and snag a Ranger "roller cam and rockers" from a 2.3L. The better cam and lower friction just gained more HP then you will gain depowering the rack. Pull the head and have 0.060 milled from the head. You have now raised the com/ ratio to near 9:1 and retarded the cam a couple of degrees.  Both mods will net you more power in the RPM range you will see on track.

These two mods, along with some porting of the cyl. head is what allowed a 2.3L powered Lemons car (Not Ford)  to win Class B twice.  The car was then moved into class A where it's was underpowered  but without any further mods ran in the top 10 overall in a couple of later races..  .

Jim, when we mill the head .060, does that retard the cam by default, or do we need an adjustable cam sprocket.    I read that you mill, then retard the cam.  My initial thought was mill the head, set cam at zero after the mill, then retard the cam 3 degrees.   I guess my question is do I need an adjustable cam sprocket, or does the mill automatically give you the 3 degrees when using a stock sprocket?

''

No, I just had the head milled and ran it like that. No adj. cam gear. The cam get retarded just because you  have moved the head downward and that shortens the tension side of the cam belt thus retarding the cam. Now I don't remember how much retard but you can confirm that with a degree wheel and some time if your concerned the amount of retard.

The engine I built this way ran quite well up to 6K. It would pull over that but you shorten the life of the engine doing that.  All stock or replacement pistons are cast (Except for the Turbos.) and running them past 6K can cause the tops of the pistons to separate from the bottom half. This engine when I first opened it up had more than one piston that had WIDER top ring grooves then the specs. called for.  This is a sign of the piston streeching pryor to failure.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

brianstrange wrote:

So another though has crossed our mind, deleting power steering.    What are the thoughts on tracking without power steering?   We're running sn95 LCS's so we should have lots of caster and camber.   I had good experiences with converting a fox rack to manual when I built my FFR Cobra.   How would this transfer on a track car?    I figure it's a few HP gain, and 20 lbs off the front end.....

I'm always for deleting power steering. I may be biased, since i own and semi-daily several old trucks without power steering. A great compromise is using an EPS box out of a Saturn vue, which is what we run on the Knoxvegas twin engined van. Much lighter than a traditional hydraulic setup. (not that it matters on a 4000 lb van)  If it fails, there isn't anything keeping you from making laps, like a blown hose would. There are controllers you can buy online, that allow you to dial in the assist level to whatever you want. At full assist, you can turn the steering shaft without a steering wheel on it. I always switch it completely off on track, as do a couple other guys. Some of the guys run it at various levels of assist. I would consider it if you're worried about not having the strength to work the wheel with a manual rack.

Re: Building a Fox Mustang Hatch

mgbgt89 wrote:
brianstrange wrote:

So another though has crossed our mind, deleting power steering.    What are the thoughts on tracking without power steering?   We're running sn95 LCS's so we should have lots of caster and camber.   I had good experiences with converting a fox rack to manual when I built my FFR Cobra.   How would this transfer on a track car?    I figure it's a few HP gain, and 20 lbs off the front end.....

I'm always for deleting power steering. I may be biased, since i own and semi-daily several old trucks without power steering. A great compromise is using an EPS box out of a Saturn vue, which is what we run on the Knoxvegas twin engined van. Much lighter than a traditional hydraulic setup. (not that it matters on a 4000 lb van)  If it fails, there isn't anything keeping you from making laps, like a blown hose would. There are controllers you can buy online, that allow you to dial in the assist level to whatever you want. At full assist, you can turn the steering shaft without a steering wheel on it. I always switch it completely off on track, as do a couple other guys. Some of the guys run it at various levels of assist. I would consider it if you're worried about not having the strength to work the wheel with a manual rack.


Thanks!    I was thinking the same.    I also found a list of Donor EPS setups that have failsafe mode, and don't require a control box.  I'll post the link when I find it.