• From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Guildenstern wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Technically I think your theme counts towards you budget. Realistically I don't think I've ever seen anyone get sweated over that fact.

I too appreciate clean cars. Especially when they stay clean since it shows the team drives clean. Car looks good.

The words "Paint" or "Theme" are nowhere in the rules anymore. "Prep" is considered mechanical work to go faster or longer.

Most of the High Theme teams spend more on the car and team theme than they do on prepping the car. Just the cost in used luggage and Spagetti-O's alone.

I just remember Phil jumping in on a thread somewhere in my first year or so racing and saying that yes, your theme counts towards the budget technically. But i've never seen a team get sweated for it. And if it's really gone from the rules, cool.

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  • Registered: 2010-03-08
  • Posts: 419

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

While I suspect your accounting will have approximately zero to do with whether you get laps or not, you can't technically drive parts cars below $0 for budget purposes.

Meaning you can buy a parts car, harvest what you need, and resell the car for more than you paid for it to make beer money, but the best you can do for your budget is zero the value of the harvested parts.

So yeah, you are way over $500.

That said, carry on.  Car looks good.

Oh, and whatever you do, don't put that T5 in fifth and use the throttle pedal.  No bueno.  I also concur that there will be synchro issues in your future.

  • Registered: 2018-02-19
  • Posts: 47

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Guildenstern wrote:

Nahh, we went 2 full races on our 1988 era 5.0 before it gave up. Not super familiar with the pre ECC-IV 302's but I think those predated H.O.s so consider a 4,000 rpm redline. Especially if you have flat tappets.

Also be gentile with 1st and 2nd in that 85 WC. we have one of that year and they almost all have had the wrong lube put in them and the original WC friction material synchros for 1 and 2 die pretty hard deaths.

WHEN you rebuild it, put the Ford Motorsports Carbon fiber 1 and 2 parts in. And only ever put Mercon rated ATF in it. Avoid MTL! we halved what was left of the synchros life doing that one race. The Friction pads NEED ATF. Redline D4 is recommended by most T5 people. 

The best thing you can do is re-gear the rear end so that you primarily run 3-4 on the track. We went 3.55 and the meat of our speed range is 3rd and 4th gear now which are both standard brass synchro rings which shift better and smoother.

Yeah I know all about the limitations of the t-5. The biggest problem with them is that people shift them like a retarded gorilla on crack and bend the shift forks which in turn destroys the synchros. Especially on the 1-2 shift fork. Wrong lube is another common problem.

The rear end is geared 3.27:1 and the shifter is a hurst with the limiting screws in it. The junk motor in this thing "should" not put out enough to kill it to quickly.

  • From: Westminster MA
  • Registered: 2017-01-17
  • Posts: 92

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Anything that makes you go "Faster" Or "longer" is budget  theme, safety, tires, and wheels and brakes are all free! 

sidenote
at nhms we were asked why we were not running megasquirt on our car, my response of it would have blown the budget by 50% was met with confused look.  Granted im in the holy grail of speed with all that is the Toyota Tercel (haha not).  I also got flack for my header because i wrapped it and it kind of looks good now,  I legit paid 20$ for a rusty SBC header set and cut them welded and massaged them to work on a 1.5liter toyota. Honestly the 500$ rule is dead. At least on the east coast  as long as its not a bmw you can squeak in a few things.  Dont show up with super $$$$ parts but you can re spring a car add some cheaty bits and be ok with a normal econo box car.  If youre German and turbo you can pretty much do anything because they are praying you just blow up (which you very well probably will the first few times)

They have hinted that next year will be different and i sort of hope so.  I think they were trying to prove the point that putting go fast parts on a car doesn't make much of a difference and driving well and consistent is far more of an advantage over coilovers on a 97hp rusty shitbox.

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  • From: Chicago-ish
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 3,498

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

NOPANTSDOUGIE wrote:

Anything that makes you go "Faster" Or "longer" is budget  theme, safety, tires, and wheels and brakes are all free! 

sidenote
at nhms we were asked why we were not running megasquirt on our car, my response of it would have blown the budget by 50% was met with confused look.  Granted im in the holy grail of speed with all that is the Toyota Tercel (haha not).  I also got flack for my header because i wrapped it and it kind of looks good now,  I legit paid 20$ for a rusty SBC header set and cut them welded and massaged them to work on a 1.5liter toyota. Honestly the 500$ rule is dead. At least on the east coast  as long as its not a bmw you can squeak in a few things.  Dont show up with super $$$$ parts but you can re spring a car add some cheaty bits and be ok with a normal econo box car.  If youre German and turbo you can pretty much do anything because they are praying you just blow up (which you very well probably will the first few times)

They have hinted that next year will be different and i sort of hope so.  I think they were trying to prove the point that putting go fast parts on a car doesn't make much of a difference and driving well and consistent is far more of an advantage over coilovers on a 97hp rusty shitbox.

I'm not currently set to judge any East Coast races this year (very subject to change, though). However, next time I head that way, I'm coming armed with better knowledge of BMW engines and an eye for your budget history if you're racing a 3-Series and probably even a 5-Series. [Feel free to run a 635, 7-Series, or 8-Series, though]. Someone pointed out a couple of S engines post-facto when I was last out there. If you're gonna bring that, you'd better have a damn-good story for me.

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  • From: Iowa
  • Registered: 2010-04-20
  • Posts: 2,660

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.
  • Registered: 2016-11-07
  • Posts: 66

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

therood wrote:

I'm not currently set to judge any East Coast races this year (very subject to change, though). However, next time I head that way, I'm coming armed with better knowledge of BMW engines and an eye for your budget history if you're racing a 3-Series and probably even a 5-Series. [Feel free to run a 635, 7-Series, or 8-Series, though]. Someone pointed out a couple of S engines post-facto when I was last out there. If you're gonna bring that, you'd better have a damn-good story for me.

I'll have to find another use for all the time I'll save NOT scouring craigslist for running basketcase 330i/530i BMWs.

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  • From: Chicago-ish
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 3,498

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

mgavro wrote:
therood wrote:

I'm not currently set to judge any East Coast races this year (very subject to change, though). However, next time I head that way, I'm coming armed with better knowledge of BMW engines and an eye for your budget history if you're racing a 3-Series and probably even a 5-Series. [Feel free to run a 635, 7-Series, or 8-Series, though]. Someone pointed out a couple of S engines post-facto when I was last out there. If you're gonna bring that, you'd better have a damn-good story for me.

I'll have to find another use for all the time I'll save NOT scouring craigslist for running basketcase 330i/530i BMWs.

I'm not saying an E46 or an E39 can't be found for Lemons money, but I'm going to be asking for your paper trail.

Eric Rood
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  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
  • Posts: 2,111

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

therood wrote:

I'm not saying an E46 or an E39 can't be found for Lemons money...

No! Tell everyone it's impossible and that we're all better off going with Rootes Group, International Harvester, or nearly anything French.

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  • From: Wilton, NH
  • Registered: 2009-06-04
  • Posts: 288

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

I'm not currently set to judge any East Coast races this year (very subject to change, though). However, next time I head that way, I'm coming armed with better knowledge of BMW engines and an eye for your budget history if you're racing a 3-Series and probably even a 5-Series. [Feel free to run a 635, 7-Series, or 8-Series, though]. Someone pointed out a couple of S engines post-facto when I was last out there. If you're gonna bring that, you'd better have a damn-good story for me.

Full disclosure, we run a BMW S30 (that's the cheaty version of the M30) in our e12, that's why we win every race, tru story.

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  • From: Chicago-ish
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 3,498

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

n0m4d wrote:

I'm not currently set to judge any East Coast races this year (very subject to change, though). However, next time I head that way, I'm coming armed with better knowledge of BMW engines and an eye for your budget history if you're racing a 3-Series and probably even a 5-Series. [Feel free to run a 635, 7-Series, or 8-Series, though]. Someone pointed out a couple of S engines post-facto when I was last out there. If you're gonna bring that, you'd better have a damn-good story for me.

Full disclosure, we run a BMW S30 (that's the cheaty version of the M30) in our e12, that's why we win every race, tru story.

Yeah, not so worried about that. More thinking about cars without proven track records, etc.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

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  • From: Lyndeborough, NH
  • Registered: 2011-05-22
  • Posts: 843

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Fishah wrote:

You'll be fine. I don't see penalty laps in your future.

Btw, you will blow up. First timers always blow up. That's how you learn.

Sometimes first-timers get lucky, finish in the top 15, then spend another 10 races blowing up before taking a year off.

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  • Spank
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  • From: Escondido, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-10
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Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

This car looked AWESOME at Gingerman!

Shame you got buried in penalty laps. Yea, It sure as heck LOOKED cheaty. I think you finished with, what, 2 laps on the positive side?

But you all took it in stride.

Great team and great attitude. Wish there were more trophies to hand out!

...coolant system full of rodent nesting, carburetor "borrowed" from you dad's plymouth, double intake manifold gaskets... Totally CLASSIC Lemons story!

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  • From: South of Chicago
  • Registered: 2011-11-26
  • Posts: 750

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

The Fox chassis has been around for almost 40 years! 1979 in fact!
Aftermarket parts for it have been available for nearly that long.
Parts depreciate as they age so in most cases those camber plates and strut braces are worth only a fraction of what they went for new.
Make up a document similar to what you put in your posting and the judges should be OK with that.
They have been around and know that Fox cars and their "go fast" parts are cheap to buy.
When you buy and sell you can even net a profit but of course you can't use that as you can't go negative on value.

  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
  • Posts: 2,227

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

jimbbski wrote:

The Fox chassis has been around for almost 40 years! 1979 in fact!
Aftermarket parts for it have been available for nearly that long.
Parts depreciate as they age so in most cases those camber plates and strut braces are worth only a fraction of what they went for new.
Make up a document similar to what you put in your posting and the judges should be OK with that.
They have been around and know that Fox cars and their "go fast" parts are cheap to buy.
When you buy and sell you can even net a profit but of course you can't use that as you can't go negative on value.

Race already happened, they got laps, which didn’t matter since it was too hot to care.

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  • chaase
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  • From: East Meadow, NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-06
  • Posts: 1,555

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Guildenstern wrote:
jimbbski wrote:

The Fox chassis has been around for almost 40 years! 1979 in fact!
Aftermarket parts for it have been available for nearly that long.
Parts depreciate as they age so in most cases those camber plates and strut braces are worth only a fraction of what they went for new.
Make up a document similar to what you put in your posting and the judges should be OK with that.
They have been around and know that Fox cars and their "go fast" parts are cheap to buy.
When you buy and sell you can even net a profit but of course you can't use that as you can't go negative on value.

Race already happened, they got laps, which didn’t matter since it was too hot to care.

based on all the go fast parts, I can see why they got laps. They got to race and they had fun which is all that matters.

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42 Reply by Hanger 18 Customs (edited by Hanger 18 Customs 2018-07-08 08:05 AM)

  • Registered: 2018-02-19
  • Posts: 47

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

chaase wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:
jimbbski wrote:

The Fox chassis has been around for almost 40 years! 1979 in fact!
Aftermarket parts for it have been available for nearly that long.
Parts depreciate as they age so in most cases those camber plates and strut braces are worth only a fraction of what they went for new.
Make up a document similar to what you put in your posting and the judges should be OK with that.
They have been around and know that Fox cars and their "go fast" parts are cheap to buy.
When you buy and sell you can even net a profit but of course you can't use that as you can't go negative on value.

Race already happened, they got laps, which didn’t matter since it was too hot to care.

based on all the go fast parts, I can see why they got laps. They got to race and they had fun which is all that matters.

We got 86 BS laps. Didn't matter though. Main thing was laps where turned, fun was had,met a bunch of cool people and brews where consumed! We will (I hope) be back!

43 Reply by Hanger 18 Customs (edited by Hanger 18 Customs 2018-07-08 07:43 AM)

  • Registered: 2018-02-19
  • Posts: 47

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Spank wrote:

This car looked AWESOME at Gingerman!

Shame you got buried in penalty laps. Yea, It sure as heck LOOKED cheaty. I think you finished with, what, 2 laps on the positive side?

But you all took it in stride.

Great team and great attitude. Wish there were more trophies to hand out!

...coolant system full of rodent nesting, carburetor "borrowed" from you dad's plymouth, double intake manifold gaskets... Totally CLASSIC Lemons story!

Thanks for the compliments on the car and a big thank you to you and the rest of the staff for putting on an awesome race! Despite all the problems we had hella fun! I am going to sort the T-5 3rd gear downshifting problem and dig into the motor.
No way a 2900# as raced Fox body with a motor that should be 250+ HP  should be driven away from on the straights by  a Focus, mkii golf , or 3/4 of the field for that matter. Something is very wrong there.

I enjoyed meeting and talking to you and hope to see you again at another race!

  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
  • Posts: 839

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

What rear end ratio were you running?

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  • Registered: 2018-02-19
  • Posts: 47

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Fishah wrote:

What rear end ratio were you running?

3.27:1 with a 23 inch tall tire(245/40r15)

46 Reply by Fishah (edited by Fishah 2018-07-08 08:43 AM)

  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
  • Posts: 839

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

On a track like Gingerman, you could go much more aggressive. Our car has a Ford 8.8 IRS rear, so we run 3.73 on short tracks and 3.27 on long ones. The difference in acceleratation compared to the competition is very noticeable.

Also don't understestimate the get-up-and-go of some of those small cars smile

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47 Reply by Hanger 18 Customs (edited by Hanger 18 Customs 2018-07-08 09:52 AM)

  • Registered: 2018-02-19
  • Posts: 47

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Fishah wrote:

On a track like Gingerman, you could go much more aggressive. Our car has a Ford 8.8 IRS rear, so we run 3.73 on short tracks and 3.27 on long ones. The difference in acceleratation compared to the competition is very noticeable.

Also don't understestimate the get-up-and-go of some of those small cars smile

Maybe, but we are not comparing apples to apples here. I assume you are referring to the 928? I am going to guess that you are at least a couple hundred pounds heavier and run a taller tire. Both factors in determining which rear gear to pick with tire diameter having a far greater affect than weight. Just figuring on the tire diameter alone based on the stock mustang 5.0L tire size which is 25.7" the difference is 3 inches in diameter.(22.7 is our actual dia. if you do the math) this is a 13.2% change which puts our actual ratio at 3.7:1.

I am not underestimating the get up and go of the smaller cars. After owning(many),daily driving, racing,and working on customers Fox Mustangs over the years I know this car isn't making anywhere near the power it should be given the combination of parts.

48 Reply by Fishah (edited by Fishah 2018-07-08 10:09 AM)

  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
  • Posts: 839

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

For reference, its a 928 with a Chevy Motor and Super T10 trans. 3000lbs. 225/50/16 tires.

You probably shouldn't ever need fifth gear, so I'd aim for a rear end ratio that'll have you almost running out of revs in fourth at the longest straight.

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  • Registered: 2018-02-19
  • Posts: 47

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

Fishah wrote:

For reference, its a 928 with a Chevy Motor and Super T10 trans. 3000lbs. 225/50/16 tires.

You probably shouldn't ever need fifth gear, so I'd aim for a rear end ratio that'll have you almost running out of revs in fourth at the longest straight.

Exactly where we were. car stayed in third and fourth the whole track. Mainly fourth due to the downshift issue. I'm going to dig into the motor this week, maybe today, and do some investigation. Compression/leak down test, check the cam lift as it's an '83 shortblock and has a flat tappet cam.

Is that 3000# as raced?

  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
  • Posts: 839

Re: Does paint count towards the budget?

I'm sure it's more than that with driver, fuel and ice.

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