Topic: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

Hey guys,

I'm working on a project at Lemons HQ hopefully to do things like:

* help captains find drivers (and probably vice versa).
* help first-time captains get to the track.
* help first-time captains have a good experience at the track.
* other things that I'm totally missing.

Anybody want to chat about things you think Lemons might be able to do to these ends? Send me a forum message or an email (below) and let me know when you're free.

Cheers,
Eric

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

Buddy system!!! I would have died when I started my own team if I couldn't lean on the Bad Decisions conglomorate. Even having raced in the series for a year, bringing a car to the race and getting everything straightened out was overwhelming. If you could find a way to match new teams with established teams to help show them the ropes it would probably help a lot.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

New captains is a different matter than what I emailed but on top of a lot of the same topics:

Buy a used LeMon if the act of fabricating your own racecar is less than 70% of why you want to do this.
Budget $4500 to get the CAR to the first race if you are building from scratch.

All your friends that want in are flakes...you will lose 2/3'rds of the team before for the first race.  To help avoid this, money up front for car prep.  $1000 deposit refundable if the person pulls out WHEN you replace them with a new $1000 sucker. 

Most Teams have to have a benevolent dictator...you have to have someone that breaks deadlocks even when they may not be right.

The order of importance on car prep is:

Safety (gotta pass tech)
Reliability (nice to run most of the weekend)
Paddock skills (nothing makes you faster than short pit stops)
Handling/Brakes
Weight reduction
MOAR POWAR

On top of a tech worthy car the minimum you need to get the car through the weekend:

Tow dolly or Trailer (Uhaul for the first race is a useful investment)
Something to pull it with
15 gallons of 5-gallon fuel storage devices
One of every fluid the car uses
One of every commonly failed item on your car that is not in stock at the local Autozone (think wheel bearings or if a BMW ECU’s)
Drip pan
Fire Extinguisher

Bored now and need beer so I will finish up work after I get home from work

4 (edited by VKZ24 2018-04-03 01:46 PM)

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

I'll add that the best way to lose good friends is a fight over money.  Building a "$500 car" is a significant investment, and all involved need to be totally aware of this fact.  If you have an interested party who can't fork over $1K right from the get-go, he/she will most likely end up owing you money, and you will no longer be friends.

On my team we decided we would be friends first, teammates/car co-owners second.  We've been doing this for 10 years now, we're all still friends, so we must be doing something right.

You need to decide if the car will be owned by the team or by the captain and exactly how the finances will be split.  We use a Google Spreadsheet to track ALL costs, and ALL costs are SPLIT EQUALLY between the four owners. 

Also some agreement needs to be hashed out between all the the teammates as to what happens if things go south with the car due to driver error or something else.  Again, you and your buddies may no longer be buddies if he/she balls up the car the first stint because he/she drove like a jackass or made the engine go boom.  Who pays for what under what circumstances?  On our team if you break it, and it was 100% your fault, you pay for 100% of what it cost, and help with labor to fix it.  Can't afford to do that?  Don't break it, or find another team that hands out charity.  Racing incidents happen, but 99.9% of the time YOU KNOW if it was your fault, so man-up, admit it, and we'll move on from there with the repair.  If you think one of your teammates would lie, or just walk away from his/her major f*ck up, you don't need them on your team.

To add to OnkelUdo's list above...radios.  I don't know how teams get by without them.  You can get a decent setup for about $75 per driver these days, so just do it.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

My first time I mentally vapour locked about ten days before the race - came to the forum asking for help and received it in spades. Checklists for parts, supplies, paddock gear, things to tell my A&D friends. Transmission blew nine laps into Saturday morning and it took all weekend to fix, but we ended up having a fun weekend regardless.

#98 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight - Class A car in the hands of a Class D team - MSR Houston IOE!

6 (edited by gus 2018-04-03 03:27 PM)

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

Some things I wish I knew a year ago, plus some other non-obvious things worth sharing to newcomers:

- No one will fault you for buying a second-hand lemon, people will actually tell you about all the interesting ways it failed in the past. Avoid anything that "just needs xyz to pass tech" and seek something that has passed tech and finished a race recently (rule change)
- You can fuel at the pumps for your first few races (maybe not at all tracks?), it's much less stressful and is actually faster for my team
- If a driver gets a black flag, you have already lost time and you're not going to win, so swap out the driver instead of sending them back out to save time
- If you're car isn't going to doh-min-ate A class, no one is going to give you a hard time about your lack of good theme at your first race
- There's a surprising amount of gear in the paddock. Ask around for a welder or engine lift or transaxle brace before spending 3 hrs trying to macgyver something
- There's also a lot of spare parts around the track for the low low price of "beer". Take the time to walk around after tech to find all the teams running part compatible cars. Don't rush to the autozone 1hr away before asking around
- If your track has garages and it's the first race of a car, a garage is a very worthy investment since your car will spend a lot of time there
- I've heard of hopeless teams paying other racers in beer for clutch or head-gasket jobs, if you're not mechanically inclined ask around before going home
- Pay for the test day if it's your first race, don't be cheap. Send each driver out for a couple laps, if the car doesn't break send them out for some more
- Recruit drivers for your team of similar physical size if possible. Wildly varying physiques makes lots of things difficult.
- Ignore the above advice if a team member can supply a tow vehicle and/or trailer. Uhaul is fine but expensive.

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

Isn't there an OK Stupid already set up to match people up and the forum to address most questions/needs a newbie might have?

There is only so much hand-holding one can/should facilitate.

Has HQ noticed a distinct lack of something they are trying to fix?

It seems like you are trying to "Fix" something by dancing around the issue.

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

SPANK SPANKSON INVESTIGATES

Basically, we're trying to figure out what are some low-effort things we can do to make first weekends go smoothly (at least from the perspective  of administrative things...They're hella on their own when the connecting rods poke holes in the hood) and how we can communicate with teams better before, during, and after race weekends.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

Spank wrote:

Isn't there an OK Stupid already set up to match people up and the forum to address most questions/needs a newbie might have?

There is only so much hand-holding one can/should facilitate.

Has HQ noticed a distinct lack of something they are trying to fix?

It seems like you are trying to "Fix" something by dancing around the issue.

Having been in the role of Midwest region matchmaker/pusher for a while and just having got off the phone with Eric, the gap is this:

Potential team captains can't get to the race because their team does a runner and they cannot get potential additional idiots in time (me, my first race).

Teams that would race but are missing 1-2 drivers do not know how to find them

Potential new team captains have no backstop when prepping for "is this right" since the forums have been slowly dying.

"Hey can you look at my...cake/seat mounting/belts/etc" for those that do poorly with written instruction and need individual attention.

I get the problem being someone who develops solutions then has to train people of varying learning styles how to use them...some people cannot internalize detailed instructions of a technical nature without an example.

Then Customer Service type follow-up with new teams to drive (corporate speak alert!) continous improvement in the communication with new teams.

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

Look, some easy things that can be done is to make a "Team Captain's" section on the website with explicit direct links to Pagel possibly including a submission form for "is this right?" questions. Some people just won't ask questions unless you ask them to.

More thorough "How to pass tech" section including a lot of "Don't do what donny don't does" pictures. Especially close cases so teams can calibrate their "Just Good Enough" gauge.

As for drivers......Yea, most of the country is broke. I wonder if it's time to drop the 4 driver registration and just charge a fixed cost for UP to 4 drivers. Then add on after that for more drivers. HQ doesn't seem to mind if one driver just does all the driving anyways.

And in general perhaps a page with a photo document or video of "What to do the first time you come to the track" Because with 100 plus teams the paddock does kinda just seem like a cluttered madhouse. I can see a pack of Newbs not knowing what order to do things or where to go first.
Especially if they show up mid Friday and have to set up in the boonies.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

As a true rookie "Lemon" (first race will be an A&D at NOLA this weekend with Orca) and future team captain (picking up a car to build this weekend, too), I've been reading the forums several times a week for a couple of months now.  I've found advice in the "newbie" flame-free section a big help, and also gotten advice from other team owners and a couple of former Lemons racers who volunteered start-up and run-a-team info.  I've appreciated all of the advice and carefully considered everything offered.  Most of it will be taken and used.  Some doesn't fit my team philosophy yet, since we intend to start out slow while we learn to race.  We'll go faster and push ourselves and the car harder after we "know how to race" without wrecking our car or anyone else's, maybe after our first couple of races.  Then we'll start working the go-faster/race harder/shave your 200 treadwear tires/cheatey tips I've been getting - all appreciated, but a little premature for our not-even-embryonic team at this point.

I found a great post last night with advice for new teams; trying to find it again so I can save a link to it or print it out.

The only suggestion I can think of is to maybe have a way to link "driver needing team" and "team needing driver" posts by race, so somebody needing a driver for Atlanta in the fall can go to an "Atlanta driver/team linkup" forum.

Is there a team name registration forum/location?  I haven't seen anyone using the team name I want to use and would like to "claim" it if possible.

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

Stan in Bham wrote:

The only suggestion I can think of is to maybe have a way to link "driver needing team" and "team needing driver" posts by race, so somebody needing a driver for Atlanta in the fall can go to an "Atlanta driver/team linkup" forum.

The forum sections for this are not long or complex so this one puzzles me.  Getting said potential drivers or team looking for drivers to contact you back can at times be complex.  human/internet nature.

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

gus wrote:

- There's a surprising amount of gear in the paddock. Ask around for a welder or engine lift or transaxle brace before spending 3 hrs trying to macgyver something.


I don't know if this is really on topic, but it's a least tangentially related.

I think it would be helpful to have a list of teams at a given race with specalized gear/tools/knowledge to share.  I know the "On Fire, Now What?" topic exists, but when I'm at the race and on fire, or especially when I'm at the race and NOT on fire, I'm not looking at the web.  I may, for example, have a an engine hoist that I'd be willing to let some other poor schmuck use, assuming my engine isn't already (still?) hanging on it.  I could post this before the race so that the other poor schmuck knows what I have and where/who I am.

And the fact that I could have used this about 100 times in three races is NOT self serving!

14 (edited by DirtyDuc 2018-04-03 10:02 PM)

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

VanillaHaze wrote:

Buddy system!!! I would have died when I started my own team if I couldn't lean on the Bad Decisions conglomorate. Even having raced in the series for a year, bringing a car to the race and getting everything straightened out was overwhelming. If you could find a way to match new teams with established teams to help show them the ropes it would probably help a lot.

This. Although I'd call it more of a mentoring relationship. Thanks, Spank, cheseroo, rb# and mharrell (and several others whose forum names I've either forgotten or never knew). But for those who don't live in the West region (and some who do), it might help if there was some sort of "how to find someone to tell you not to give up" resource before the first race, or find that person in the paddock.

Like a group text thing that "vetted" captains/cheerleaders could volunteer for... Options for home base and races attending. Captains/crew could respond (or not) with helpful messages like "i have a spare trans for a Taurus" before someone flies a plane into Newark.

By vetted, I mean judged (in the traditional Lemons way of completely arbitrarily) to be less of a menace than random Facebook posts in vaguely related groups/streams/whatever the cool kids are calling them these days.

Could also have a less reputable section of "tools I have and will kill to get back."

That guy

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

The Buddy System idea has come up in every single conversation I've had so far. I'm not sure what looks like in an official capacity, but it's definitely something I'm going to discuss with Jay today.

Also: All of the feedback so far has been really great. The community in Lemons is its most redeeming part and I can't really express how thankful I am to be part of a series where the competitors really and truly want it to be better for everyone.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

One thing that helped our team was by luck finding out that Team EVR was within 20 minutes of us.  Frank was nice enough to come by one night and talk to us about what to expect and what we might need for our first outing.  When our welder did not get finished with our cage, Frank and Bob were at the track, with their welder and finished out the cage for us so we could turn in 65 laps for the weekend.

Skip "Mongo" L.
Team DadBod

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

More promotion of these forums would go a long way. There is a ton of stored info here that I know helped me a lot when I started. Unfortunately there's been a shift to places like facebook that has really hurt forums. So now you have large groups run by people who are more fans than participants, spreading info that is not necessarily correct, and zero knowledge retention. Asking a question on a facebook group you are at the mercy of whoever happens to be looking that minute. And that someone may have no idea what they're talking about.

A big Newb/Captin's section on the main site, with direct links to resources like the forums, the rules, all the email addresses for specific people at HQ, stuff like that would likely help.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

New Captain here! with a few cents of how, what, when, and why we are doing our first race as a team in less than 2 weeks.

The start of the 2017 season I got invite from my cousin out on the west coast to be part of a team for this race called The 24 Hours of Lemons. no Idea as to what it pertained so I looked it up, called him the next day, I am in! needless to say when I got there the car wasn't done and we didn't make the race, but we did spend the weekend at the track(Sonoma). came back out in May for race #2 which is when and where I met Chris Overzet. Our Nash made 1.5 laps and was done for the rest of the weekend not with out a lot of hard work to try to get it back on the track. Overzet allowed me to hop into his car to get some track time! Dusty and Chris offered me a spot once again on the Aztec build and team at Arse-Freeze-Apalooza in December at the end of 2017(when I met Spank, Neal and a bunch of other guys). I wanted to build my own team back in Indiana at this point. Once I got home I was contacted by one of my friends about these races he seen me doing. we met up a weekend after I got home and decided we would start a build!

we have 6 drivers:

one of which is Overzet

Without his help throughout this process we would probably not be making this race, along with some other guys from the forums, which found to be close and cant wait to meet in person next week. one of the fairly local teams allowed me to reach out when I couldn't find parts and BAM! I'm leaving that day for a 3 hour drive for the unicorn of windshields!

What's Helped me so far:

1, Constant team communication! texting, calls, emails
2. Taking Overzets and Spanks(experienced captains) advice on what to do and not to do.
3. Using the forums!!!!!!!
4. Printing and reading over the rules and how not to fail tech constantly, just caught something yesterday we could have failed for.
5. When it comes to the funding side, as everyone has said...make it clear this will cost more than $500 and make sure the team is ready, willing and able to fork out the cash.
6. Finding a fun car to build (don't make the mistake I did and find one you cant get parts for in a hurry) but its a pretty neat car so far and the whole team loves it.
7. Know going into this there will be a lot of work, beers drank, cusswords and long ass nights
8. Be willing to carry your team when things get tough
9. Be willing to be the "bad guy" on split decisions
10. Do not be afraid to admit when you are wrong, failed and need help!
Last but not least, no matter the outcome stay friends/make new ones, have fun and prepare for the next Race/Build!

Team Captain at Rust Belt Racing,IOE Pontiac Aztek with The Pit Crew Revenge,Organizers Choice 1956 Nash Metro With Cheesy beards Racing,IOE 1977 Toyota Celica S/T RBR,.SERVICE BY MANNY, MOE, AND JACK PIT CREW REVENGED AEWOO LEGANZA,Judges Choice Chevy HHR RBR

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

As far as all the help - the best thing is having an experienced team help a new captain out.  Having a list of experienced teams/captains available locally to help.

From there, really having a recipe for the novice racer would be beneficial.  For first timers:
here is the list of cars [car1, car2, etc.] that are cheap and have available parts
use this harness [...] or this better harness [...] until you know better
attach it with these fasteners [...]
Use this seat [...] or this seat for XXL drivers [...]
use this power switch [...] with these wire connectors [...]
go to this decal shop for your car numbers [...]
here is a cage maker in your area [...]
use these radios with this radio harness [...]
Bring [tools, water, beer, spare parts, etc.]
use these utility cans to fill your car with gas [...]
on your car, here are the things likley to fail [cooling, brakes, wheel bearking, etc.]
rent a transponder or buy one here [...] here is a transponder holder [...]
...and so on

You really want someone to be able to sit down and take the guesswork out of being a novice.  Have a .pdf with a list of parts that they are going to need.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

RobL wrote:

go to this decal shop for your car numbers [...]

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zl3SefJ2Mwk/hqdefault.jpg

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

TheEngineer wrote:

Unfortunately there's been a shift to places like facebook that has really hurt forums.

I will admit there's very little reason to visit the 24 Hours of Lemons Yahoo! Group these days. It's awfully quiet over there.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

mharrell wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Unfortunately there's been a shift to places like facebook that has really hurt forums.

I will admit there's very little reason to visit the 24 Hours of Lemons Yahoo! Group these days. It's awfully quiet over there.

The weekly discussions on how to wire a cutoff switch were amusing.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

therood wrote:

SPANK SPANKSON INVESTIGATES

Basically, we're trying to figure out what are some low-effort things we can do to make first weekends go smoothly (at least from the perspective  of administrative things...They're hella on their own when the connecting rods poke holes in the hood) and how we can communicate with teams better before, during, and after race weekends.

I'm not really sure how Lemons could make things clearer.  There is a ton of emails and nice diagrams of how to not fail tech.  Most of the problem there is people don't read.  Most of us here who run teams have experienced that.  As stated by others, the issues tend to be how to actually get all the moving parts of building a team and car together at once.  The regional buddy system, mentor, or whatever would come into play for that.  Most teams have received and given support to others so it's more a matter of the format to link people.

Team Glue Sticks
00 Firebird, 02 X-Type, 93 NX2000, 00 Mazda 626 (Sold)
2016 NJMP Heroic Fix, 2017 NJMP Near Heroic Fix except we can't drive, 2017 Thompson I Got Screwed, 2019 Pitt Heroic Fix

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

RobL wrote:

From there, really having a recipe for the novice racer would be beneficial.

All after this is already provided, or comes with the "mentor/buddy" package.

And I don't think it's in Jay's (or the series) best interest to provide all that any more than they already do.

That guy

25 (edited by gunn 2018-04-04 03:36 PM)

Re: ATTN: CAPTAINS, I WANT SOME INPUT

While not directly related to just team captains, I've always thought that having some way to identify NEW TEAMS/Drivers on-track would be useful for everyone else on the track; this way you can give them more leeway and are more likely to forgive their asshoolery. Example: having TX plates when driving in the CO mtns can almost guarantee you that other drivers will give you a wide berth since they know you don't know how to deal with snow.

I know that there's already
a mandatory new driver's meeting but it seems like some people just don't get it (aka those teams that rack up 4 flags/day and have to park).

My suggestion would be something like a pennant or flag with this at the end that the car must display:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1WzjqWpOeTo/TW0h7HnrT7I/AAAAAAAAABo/iYbJevq6fmE/s1600/wakaba_1v1_by_killertofupanda.png

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4