Topic: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

3 years ago, I bought a cheater car. I brought home a 1994 E36 318i with a blown motor and a bunch of cosmetic issues. It's been the worst kept secret of a project, and I want to talk about it so that I'll be a bit more motivated to finish it. It kinda went on the back burner when we built the Saab because, well, the saab is reliable and we kinda like that.

So, if you're me, and you buy an E36 with a blown motor, what would you logically throw in the engine bay? Right, a 13B rotary. At least, that's where we started. I bought the rx7 before i actually bought the E36. I have the full drivetrain, wiring harness (which I started stripping out to bare essentials), and a whole bunch of other parts from that donor car. I actually bought that rx7 so long ago I was trying to figure out how to adapt the brakes from it onto the daytona at one point.

But. rotaries are expensive. And in the aftermath of scrapping the Daytona I looked around my garage, and noticed just how many parts and engines I still have.... So what does a dumb engineer do at this point? If you guessed set the long term goal of making both engines work so that one day you can show up, race saturday with one engine, and sunday with another, you win! That's the stretch goal anyway. For now, Daytona powered E36 is the first step.

Some know this plan already. I keep secrets like a cracked bucket holds water. I wanted to keep it quiet and just show up with the car, but honestly, I need motivation to keep working at something faster than a snails pace. And talking about it helps. Talking about it keeps me excited. So I'm going to start a build journal.

Alright, so what's the status of the car right now? Well, I found a transmission, built some mounts, and a dummy engine is sitting in the engine bay. I've been working on re-engineering the intake for reasons I'll talk about later on. The car is caged, the seat is mocked up. I have an engine on a stand waiting for a tear down and refresh. I need to order a custom clutch and drive shaft. What I really need is time.

To pick a point to start however, let's talk about the transmission. what do you do when you have an engine that was transverse originally, but you want it longitudinal? Internet rabbit holes. In 1994 and 1995 the dodge dakota came with the 2.5L 4 cylinder. The same common block that was in my daytona. That engine was mounted up to a 2WD AX15 trans. What is so magical about that? Well the AX15 shares a bellhousing bolt pattern with the toyota R154, as well as the Aisin AR5 (also known as the MA5 in chevy cars/trucks). Cool. So I bought a 1994 Dakota AX15, telling myself I'd start with that. It was direct fit after all. Until I stuck it in the car. Because it's a truck trans, the shifter wanted to come up through the tunnel where the HVAC mess was. Not ideal. So I started looking around, and the MA5 from a Solstice/Sky is not that expensive. Junkyard prices are downright reasonable actually. And the gear ratios are way better. So dad and I drove to Jersey and picked one up. You would not believe how naturally this rig bolted together, and went into the car. The engine sits perfectly over the cross memeber, and the shifter is right in line with the stock trans tunnel opening. Now all I need to do is measure a bunch of things, and see if I need to modify the input shaft at all to make it line up correctly with the crank and pilot bearing.

Pictures are worth a thousand words, I'll get some posted tonight and tomorrow once I figure out the best alternative to photobucket after they broke the internet.

This should be fun.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

Curious about oil pickup when converting from east-west to north-south.  Is any mod necessary?  Also, I'm transitioning out of the 13B world so let me know if you need anything.

BTW, the saturday/sunday engine conversion has long been Spank's dream but he's been surrounded by people like me doing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ixckCSoN9M#t=22s

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

We have the same issue with shifter location on the Dodge AX15 we're using in the V8 miata.  There's no more HVAC stuff in our car, so I'm just making a long dog-leg shifter.  What clutch setup were you able to run with the AR5?

Sounds like a fun project.  Flickr has worked well for me lately and has 1TB of storage for free with full resolution upload capability.

Petrosexual Racing - 4.9 HT swap/Trashback Miata
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=35746
"Seriously, WTF Award" - 2017 - Spaghettio Bribe
BFE GP 1st in C - 2018

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

cheseroo wrote:

Curious about oil pickup when converting from east-west to north-south.  Is any mod necessary?  Also, I'm transitioning out of the 13B world so let me know if you need anything.

BTW, the saturday/sunday engine conversion has long been Spank's dream but he's been surrounded by people like me doing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ixckCSoN9M#t=22s

I don't think anything is necessary in this engine. pickup sits in a low spot in the pan anyway with no baffles. however, I think I need to modify the pan to clear the crossmember, so I'll have to modify the pickup anyway. Might as well add baffles while I'm in there.

No idea what I need for the 13B. It's been so long since I looked at it. Likely gaskets and exhaust. but shipping exhaust is stupid.

I really want to get to the point where I can do the saturday night engine swap. I think it would be fun. We'll see how much work that takes.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

egesledder wrote:

We have the same issue with shifter location on the Dodge AX15 we're using in the V8 miata.  There's no more HVAC stuff in our car, so I'm just making a long dog-leg shifter.  What clutch setup were you able to run with the AR5?

Sounds like a fun project.  Flickr has worked well for me lately and has 1TB of storage for free with full resolution upload capability.

I won't abandon the HVAC. I like having a functioning defroster in the car. That's why I moved on to the MA5. For a clutch, I'm just going to have someone make me one that's a standard daytona clutch with the GM spline. Shouldn't be hard to get done. I'm sure if I search through mountains of catalogs I can find an off the shelf that works, but I already don't have enough time on my hands.


If you happen to be on the east coast and want a questionable AX15 with no bellhousing, I can load it up and bring it to a race.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

TheEngineer wrote:

But. rotaries are expensive. And in the aftermath of scrapping the Daytona I looked around my garage, and noticed just how many parts and engines I still have.... So what does a dumb engineer do at this point?

Fuse the crank shaft of one of the Daytona engines to the output shaft of the rotary and use it as a torque augmenter?


TheEngineer wrote:

If you guessed set the long term goal of making both engines work so that one day you can show up, race saturday with one engine, and sunday with another, you win! That's the stretch goal anyway. For now, Daytona powered E36 is the first step.

Oh, or that I guess.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

TheEngineer wrote:

...

Pictures are worth a thousand words, I'll get some posted tonight and tomorrow once I figure out the best alternative to photobucket after they broke the internet.

This should be fun.

I've been using:
https://postimages.org/
for pictures I post and forget.

Guildenstern wrote:

Fuse the crank shaft of one of the Daytona engines to the output shaft of the rotary and use the rotary as a supercharger.
...

ftfy.

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

Pictures from picking up the MA5 and fitting it to the engine the first time

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/813/27392116828_1c45033d55_k.jpg

Comparing the AX15 and MA5. Shows just how far off the shifter was on the AX15
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/870/27392116138_01ce92a318_k.jpg

Bellhousings swapped, ready to bolt to the dummy block.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/813/27392111038_5426e6fecd_z.jpg

Bolted on, without the oil pan so it looks weird.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/790/40369416275_c6293cd166_z.jpg

Hanging in place so I can align it and make mounts
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/866/27392110138_d0a37b63c8_z.jpg

Showing just how perfectly the shifter lines up
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/894/40369415535_263737821e_z.jpg

Sitting on engine mounts for the first time
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/785/40369412705_e6953498fa_z.jpg

Starting to check accessories. Water pump is fine, but the alternator interferes with the frame rail.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/877/27392102978_4e622f30e1_z.jpg

One just for fun. How I picked up the latest extra engine from the junk yard. Hatchbacks rule. https://farm1.staticflickr.com/816/40369409885_e0722a7358_z.jpg

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

Big project prior to installing the cage, fixing the jack points. The chassis was fairly solid, but the actual jack points like to rust out on the E36. Bad enough that I couldn't lift the car on the stock points on a few corners. So I build some boxes to put the car up on while I worked under it. You don't want to know how I got it up like this.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/820/39456213730_854bd284ff_z.jpg

Example of what I found when I started cutting out the bottom of the rockers.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/820/40369405775_d9d2fdba76_z.jpg

Example of how I fixed it. Welded in spreader plates up inside the rockers, backed up against the areas the cage lands. Then more spreaders that tie out onto the bottom of the car. Weld in a piece of DOM with a few pieces attaching it to the spreaders as well as the stock lift points (behind the DOM in this pic)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/885/40369403095_c2e04de571_z.jpg

All sealed up and primed.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/878/40369402455_3e6a70f3e9_z.jpg

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

I'm skipping forward a bit because I don't want to go over the cage build just yet tonight. So lets talk about the intake. The stock intake has a 90deg elbow that wraps the throttle body around the engine. This is fine in a transverse layout, but in the BMW that puts the throttle body up against the firewall. See here:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/877/27392102978_4e622f30e1_z.jpg

Because of how the intercooler piping will run eventually, this is not ideal. I'd really like the throttle body facing forward, and look at that freeze plug just begging to be knocked out. So what I really want is something like this:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/822/26393833677_f0a62fc17b_z.jpg


However, there's a problem. And it's the inside of the intake. The way it's cast the runners aren't fully open inside, they're up on a ledge and the incoming air blows over them as it comes through the elbow. When I move the throttle body it just pressurizes the intake and air has to make a big curve up and around to go through the runners. See this picture from when I cut the intake open to make sense of what i'm trying to say.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/787/26393831997_1c2f8f46f2_z.jpg

So what to do. I decided I might as well cut the runners open and then weld it back up. I mean, how much worse can I make it? Runner length gets shorter, but in a race you're always in boost, so who cares. So I did that.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/788/26393831317_75ef344ecc_z.jpg
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/785/41221848562_3982577da5_z.jpg
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/865/41265266361_b3fef48209_k.jpg

After that it's just a matter of welding it back up.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/784/40551984164_381e2fdcb3_k.jpg
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/902/41265625521_0987de752b_k.jpg

I'm not 100% done with it yet. Need to weld on the throttle body and seal off the other side. but it's close.


I'll leave it there for tonight. Tomorrow I'll show the cage build. And from there? The rest. A long way to go.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

jiggermyster wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Fuse the crank shaft of one of the Daytona engines to the output shaft of the rotary and use the rotary as a supercharger.
...

ftfy.

YEA!!!! I mean above their Engineered optimum RPM they spit out as much gas as they burn. Sort of a pre stage burner.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

12 (edited by TheEngineer 2018-04-09 09:02 AM)

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

I appreciate the ambition of combining the engines. But i'm not that talented. And the engine bay isn't THAT big.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

Chris .....This is Epic!
You need to continue.....
Just the fact that you are using that engine is cool enough!
I would suggest you ditch the intake completely and make one.
Grab the intake gasket and some tube, cut out a thick plate in the shape of the gasket and add a log style tube for the intake.
I would do it in mild steel, easier than aluminum to fab.
Hit me up if you need anything.
Manny

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

I did think about custom making the intake, but a few things turned me off the idea. It's not a cross flow head, so the intake and exhaust are interwoven. Makes it a bit more annoying. And I have like 4 intakes just laying around. I'll see how the modded one works. If it's a failure I'll go the custom route. I don't mind working in aluminum that much, Welding it is getting easier with practice.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

So. Clutch. I was resigned to having a custom clutch made to get us where we need to go. But I decided to give it one last look, and I think I might have found one. I found this catalogue of clutch parts and looked up the daytona and sky parts.

http://www.manualtransmissionpart.com/m … -16_us.pdf

Dodge - 9.125" disk 13/16-18 spline
Saturn - 9" disk  1.125 26 spline

So search for a 9.125" disk with 1.125"-26 spline. And a bunch come up. All Chevy/GMC/Izuzu. Here's the list I pulled together organized by the LUK part numbers

1. 04-138
S10/T10, Blazer 2.2 4cyl 94-95
BLAZER (FULL SIZE), C10-30, K5-30, R10-30, V10-30, SILVERADO, TAHOE  3.1V6 5 speed 95
S15/T15, JIMMY, SONOMA  2.2 94-95

2. 04-155 **
S10/T10, Blazer 2.2 4cyl  96-01, 04
S15/T15, JIMMY, SONOMA 2.2 96-01
BLAZER (FULL SIZE), C10-30, K5-30, R10-30, V10-30, SILVERADO, TAHOE  3.1V6 5 speed 96-98
Izuzu Hombre 4cly 96-00

3. 04-207 **
S10/T10, Blazer 2.2 4cyl 02-03
S15/T15, JIMMY, SONOMA 2.2  02-03

4. 04-236
Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon 4Cyl  2.4L 04-06
Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon 4Cyl  2.8L 07-11
Izuzu I-280 2.8L 06
Izuzu I-290 2.9L 07-08


Store near me has a kit in stock that matches the 96-01 and 02-03 S10. Going to visit after work and see if they'll let me hold a daytona clutch up to it and confirm things like thickness and hub size to see if it will fit under a stock daytona pressure plate.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

Update:
Went to the store and held up an daytona clutch disc to the S10 one. It's damn perfect. Right diameter, right thickness, right hub height, and correct spline. And there is a LUK kit on amazon Prime for $60. I'm calling this one a huge win.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Our latest build, because stupidity knows no bounds.

TheEngineer wrote:

Update:
Went to the store and held up an daytona clutch disc to the S10 one. It's damn perfect. Right diameter, right thickness, right hub height, and correct spline. And there is a LUK kit on amazon Prime for $60. I'm calling this one a huge win.

Nice

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