Topic: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

I was just wondering if it would be helpful to have a thread that would list for new teams the unwritten rules of Lemons racing, etiquette on and off the track, do's and don'ts,  etc.   Such as:

- On the track, if you hit someone, try to find them after the track goes cold and apologize.  If you can not find them, then just post an apology on the forums.  And if you do not remember the number of the car that you hit, post an apology on the forums anyways...

- If you hit another car, and damage it...uh...(I'm not sure...I guess the least you could do is try to do something to make up for what you did?  I guess it depends how much you damaged it and how much of it was obviously your fault)

- If you get black flagged for a hit and it is your fault, fess up and tell the judge so that the person you hit does not get penalized...

- Don't get drunk and really rowdy at night (doing illegal stuff, breaking track rules, and picking fights)...cops will be called and you will be banished...(or don't bring friends that get drunk and rowdy)

- On the track, if you are slower, try to stay out of the way of more experience teams (driving predictibally, staying on the line, or driving off line along the side of the track)

- Don't drive like those idiots on the freeways that just traded in their BMW for a big ass pick-up truck....and drive it the same way

- Don't give judges a hard time (argue a lot) if you get flagged, or do not pass tech...

- Don't use your check book as a tool to fix your car...do it your self...

- Make new teams feel welcome...if it was not for the continuous influx of new teams....Lemons would be dead

Anyways, just some thoughts to get the Forums more interesting to read....

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

- On the track, if you are slower, try to stay out of the way of more experience teams (driving predictibally, staying on the line, or driving off line along the side of the track)

For any slow or novice drivers where this one applies - to stay out of the way its good to pick a side of the track and run it all the way around. Especially in the corners. Don't cross back and forth from side to side. That causes a LOT of issues with faster drivers. Personally I recommend staying to the right. It will feel the most natural to novice drivers.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

In addition to the above, all of which I agree with 100%, I have a few more.


Know where you are in the standings, and know which teams you are racing.  If you are in 50th place you're not 'racing' the leaders so move over, let 'em by and keep on racing the cars that are in the 49th and 51st places.

If you are in a much slower car, point the much faster cars by to make it easy for them and yourself.  If you are given a point-by, be sure and give the guy a 'thank you' wave to acknowledge it.

Don't park behind anyone's tow vehicle and/or trailer in the paddock.  Make sure your family or anyone visiting knows this as well.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

If a car catches you on the track, they are faster than you are.  Point them by.  Blocking them only increases the chance of them/you doing something stupid which could take both of you out of the race.

Winner "We Got Screwed" award NHMS 2017
#847 Batmobile  aka-"Beulah"
https://www.facebook.com/squidroperacing/

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

- If you borrow a tool, return it.  With at least a beer as interest. 

- a) Paddock parking is tight.  Don't take more space than you need.  If you want to vanspread, do it at the back of paddock. 
  b) Garages typically include the parking directly out of the door, respect that.

- Just because pedestrians have the right of way, doesn't give you the right to walk in the middle of the road and block traffic.  The most dangerous place in racing is in the paddock, act like it and be aware. 

- If you have a teammate that doesn't understand racing, who's only experience may have been driving a truck in a city, run far away.  They will wreck for no reason and crash into people. 

- if you are an A&D driver, respect the owners wishes.  If they say drive at 8/10, then drive at 8/10.

- on the topic of A&D, always get and check references and make sure they understand this isn't a 16 hour sprint race.  As a car owner, you are ultimately responsible for what your car does on track and making sure all your drivers get seat time.   

- Be aware of the IOE and class C cars out there.  Give them respect and space to race their own race.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

On the subject of faster cars, I have a little bit of a different position. You don't have to slow way down or do weird shit to let them by. Communicating on track isn't always clear, so it's best to just let a faster car find a way around you while you hold the racing line. If you want to let them by more definitively just let up on the straights, or brake early if they are coming next to you. In my opinion this is the best way to let people by as it is inherently the same as what you are already driving. making your movement the most predictable.

I am also of the opinion that the guy racing for 40th has just as much right to fight for a corner as the guys shooting for first. This is a race and nobody owns the line. That said, it's every driver's responsibility to learn the basic racing line and how to adjust that line to go through the corner two or three wide because it will happen and you need to know where to be.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

VanillaHaze wrote:

On the subject of faster cars, I have a little bit of a different position. You don't have to slow way down or do weird shit to let them by. Communicating on track isn't always clear, so it's best to just let a faster car find a way around you while you hold the racing line. If you want to let them by more definitively just let up on the straights, or brake early if they are coming next to you. In my opinion this is the best way to let people by as it is inherently the same as what you are already driving. making your movement the most predictable.

I am also of the opinion that the guy racing for 40th has just as much right to fight for a corner as the guys shooting for first. This is a race and nobody owns the line. That said, it's every driver's responsibility to learn the basic racing line and how to adjust that line to go through the corner two or three wide because it will happen and you need to know where to be.

I agree with this, while a courtesy point by is always nice, this isn’t a trackday. It’s more important for a slower car to act predictably, a fast car is obviously capable of making a safe pass and it’s THEIR responsibility to achive that. As a middleing lazy guy, I shouldn’t have to drive my mirrors to Shepard the race leaders. If they really feel it’s an issue, perhaps they should concider flash to pass lights so they can tell me how supposedly important they are.

Because honestly, if I don’t care about where I am in the standings, how am I supposed to keep track of where OTHER cars are in the standings. I trust the try hards to take care of their own race.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

MZAVARIN wrote:

- Don't get drunk and really rowdy at night (doing illegal stuff, breaking track rules, and picking fights)...cops will be called and you will be banished...(or don't bring friends that get drunk and rowdy)


Well that one is a little over dramatic. People's definition of rowdy varies greatly. I get the point you mean, which is don't be a giant dick and do something that will ruin it for the rest of us. But night time is fun time, do enjoy yourself.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

TheEngineer wrote:
MZAVARIN wrote:

- Don't get drunk and really rowdy at night (doing illegal stuff, breaking track rules, and picking fights)...cops will be called and you will be banished...(or don't bring friends that get drunk and rowdy)


Well that one is a little over dramatic. People's definition of rowdy varies greatly. I get the point you mean, which is don't be a giant dick and do something that will ruin it for the rest of us. But night time is fun time, do enjoy yourself.

Is that even a thing? Been doing this for a while, and never seen anyone do any of the above.

#928 Porsche 928 - West German Pushrodders

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

Fishah wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:
MZAVARIN wrote:

- Don't get drunk and really rowdy at night (doing illegal stuff, breaking track rules, and picking fights)...cops will be called and you will be banished...(or don't bring friends that get drunk and rowdy)


Well that one is a little over dramatic. People's definition of rowdy varies greatly. I get the point you mean, which is don't be a giant dick and do something that will ruin it for the rest of us. But night time is fun time, do enjoy yourself.

Is that even a thing? Been doing this for a while, and never seen anyone do any of the above.

From time to time, yes. For example, try not to wield a knife and stab a teammate in the paddock at Thompson. That was in one of the wrap-up videos.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

Fishah wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:
MZAVARIN wrote:

- Don't get drunk and really rowdy at night (doing illegal stuff, breaking track rules, and picking fights)...cops will be called and you will be banished...(or don't bring friends that get drunk and rowdy)


Well that one is a little over dramatic. People's definition of rowdy varies greatly. I get the point you mean, which is don't be a giant dick and do something that will ruin it for the rest of us. But night time is fun time, do enjoy yourself.

Is that even a thing? Been doing this for a while, and never seen anyone do any of the above.

Yes.  The "No Stuntin/Sploding" rule did not always exist.  Things were getting a bit out of hand at times.  Well, maybe a lot out of hand.

But to the original point, be predictable and don't be a dick.  The problem is that people who are one or both of those generally are unbelieving that they themselves could possibly possess those attributes so always be on your toes.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

VanillaHaze wrote:

I am also of the opinion that the guy racing for 40th has just as much right to fight for a corner as the guys shooting for first. This is a race and nobody owns the line.

While you are technically correct, of course there is more than one way to look at it, depending on your side of the fence, fast car or slow one.  I've been in the fastest car, and somewhere in the middle, but never in a Class C car.  When I'm usually somewhere in the middle (top 15 Class A car) I always know who the leaders are, and if I'm back in 10th, I will move over (not slow down), give them the line, and let the big dogs eat.  I've had plenty of people do the same for me when I was obviously much faster.  Like the title of the thread, it's not a written 'rule', it's just being courteous.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

Guildenstern wrote:

I agree with this, while a courtesy point by is always nice, this isn’t a trackday. It’s more important for a slower car to act predictably, a fast car is obviously capable of making a safe pass and it’s THEIR responsibility to achive that. As a middleing lazy guy, I shouldn’t have to drive my mirrors to Shepard the race leaders.

I have more IOEs than I have class wins.  There is an art to driving slow when everyone around you wants to go fast.  That is staying the hell out of the way, being aware of the cars around you, and knowing what's in your mirrors.  It is BOTH drivers responsibility to achieve contact free passes.  Saying that it's only up to the faster guy will lead to contact.  I can't tell you how many times on these forums and on the facebook pages that someone asks about contact and most of the time it's because the slower car cuts down on the passing car mid corner or is lazily drifting across a straight.  Hold your line in traffic and know to a certainty that there is no one to your inside if you decide to drive 'the line.'

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

RobL wrote:

- If you have a teammate that doesn't understand racing, who's only experience may have been driving a truck in a city, run far away.  They will wreck for no reason and crash into people.

I had a healthy chuckle at that...

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

gtopat wrote:
RobL wrote:

- If you have a teammate that doesn't understand racing, who's only experience may have been driving a truck in a city, run far away.  They will wreck for no reason and crash into people.

I had a healthy chuckle at that...

We all did......

29+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    1 Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

cheseroo wrote:

Yes.  The "No Stuntin/Sploding" rule did not always exist.  Things were getting a bit out of hand at times.  Well, maybe a lot out of hand.

Out of hand? It was getting EPIC!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

RobL wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

I agree with this, while a courtesy point by is always nice, this isn’t a trackday. It’s more important for a slower car to act predictably, a fast car is obviously capable of making a safe pass and it’s THEIR responsibility to achive that. As a middleing lazy guy, I shouldn’t have to drive my mirrors to Shepard the race leaders.

I have more IOEs than I have class wins.  There is an art to driving slow when everyone around you wants to go fast.  That is staying the hell out of the way, being aware of the cars around you, and knowing what's in your mirrors.  It is BOTH drivers responsibility to achieve contact free passes.  Saying that it's only up to the faster guy will lead to contact.  I can't tell you how many times on these forums and on the facebook pages that someone asks about contact and most of the time it's because the slower car cuts down on the passing car mid corner or is lazily drifting across a straight.  Hold your line in traffic and know to a certainty that there is no one to your inside if you decide to drive 'the line.'

Both parties are responsible for preventing contact, but nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to take a risky pass. If you’re in a reall slow car like I was in the Explorer, yea stay out of the way. But in a middle of the pack car that’s roughly on average pace, I don’t feel like it’s my responsibility to LET someone by just because they’d like it to happen. Especially in dense traffic because now you’re just asking for unpredictable results if two or three cars are all trying to give way to someone who’s racing LAPS not tenths of seconds for the lead.

We all do our part to not hit each other to some degree of sucess or another, but the overtaking car has to think about what they are putting themselves into. Passing on turns is sprint race stuff. If you really are faster, you’ll find a quick way around while I do my best not to occupy the same space as you as well as everyone else.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

18

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

To me the main things are similar to the golden rule

Help those who need help, and others will help you when you need it.

Feed and give drink others and others will give food and drink to you

Finally don't be an ass on or off the track.


That seems to cover most things.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

In Lemons racing anything can and will happen to you or the car next to you. So whether your class A,B or C not leaving a little room for the other car next to you or the car closing fast or the car your overtaking or any low percentage move is not smart for anybody. No one owns the racing line is definitely true but its also true for the car ON the racing line. (In Lemons) 

After 10 years of Lemons racing I've been of both sides of bad decisions and have a couple personal observations:

Very few of the cars in one of our races are at the limit with respect to cornering capability in any corner so leaving some room for a fellow racer doesn't necessarily slow you down.

If your car is not drifting out to the curbing on corner exit and you are instead steering the car out there, there is not a real good reason to be out there.

With 130 cars on track at the same time if everyone lines up to take the "racing" line from turn in to corner exit instead of us all cornering 2 or 3 wide than we have created a parking lot.

So flame away.

Oh ya here's a nugget I try to live by: While stepping on your own D*$k try not to step on anyone else's.

Greg

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

VanillaHaze wrote:

On the subject of faster cars, I have a little bit of a different position. You don't have to slow way down or do weird shit to let them by. Communicating on track isn't always clear, so it's best to just let a faster car find a way around you while you hold the racing line. If you want to let them by more definitively just let up on the straights, or brake early if they are coming next to you. In my opinion this is the best way to let people by as it is inherently the same as what you are already driving. making your movement the most predictable.

I am also of the opinion that the guy racing for 40th has just as much right to fight for a corner as the guys shooting for first. This is a race and nobody owns the line. That said, it's every driver's responsibility to learn the basic racing line and how to adjust that line to go through the corner two or three wide because it will happen and you need to know where to be.

If you see a bright blue car in your mirror get the hell out of the way!

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

21 (edited by RobL 2018-04-30 05:32 PM)

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

Guildenstern wrote:

Both parties are responsible for preventing contact, but nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to take a risky pass. If you’re in a reall slow car like I was in the Explorer, yea stay out of the way. But in a middle of the pack car that’s roughly on average pace, I don’t feel like it’s my responsibility to LET someone by just because they’d like it to happen. Especially in dense traffic because now you’re just asking for unpredictable results if two or three cars are all trying to give way to someone who’s racing LAPS not tenths of seconds for the lead.

We all do our part to not hit each other to some degree of sucess or another, but the overtaking car has to think about what they are putting themselves into. Passing on turns is sprint race stuff. If you really are faster, you’ll find a quick way around while I do my best not to occupy the same space as you as well as everyone else.

It depends on what you are defining as "risky."  Passing in turns is some of the easiest ways to pass.  If you are going to be passed, you go a little long in the turn and stay to the outside taking a really late apex while the passing driver makes his normal turn and just like that you have swapped positions. 

In dense traffic, people here tend to form two lanes.  You then stick to your lane until traffic clears and/or you can make a safe pass. 

I'd be curious to watch some of your laps and see how you do handle traffic.  I'm wondering if this is regional or per track etiquette that has developed.

Here is part of one of my stints (Rob vs. Rob - A friend of mine is in the brick mustang and I am in our mustang).  The yellow car gives us room on the inside to get our passes done.  Which according to you is risky/sprint car passing.  I then give room to right to let the BMW pass and get to the apex.  I lose a little time but I didn't wipe him out since it would have been his responsibility to make a clean pass while I move to the apex.  Then in the next corner, I pass the Subaru mid/late turn after he allows room.  https://youtu.be/2ROAhjuOqRE?t=18m15s

You can see exactly what I'm talking about at 26:51 when two cars leave the apex open for me to dive into.  And then a few turns later a blue and while car does the same thing - leaves room to the apex to (apparently) let me go.  Then one turn later, I do the same and let the honda go.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

These “rules” may seem at times backwards... but they work...

1.  I want every car to race the racing line. 

2.  Slower cars will turn faster laps breaking early to let a faster car pass prior to a turn and then get back on the racing line (and gas) and exit the corner faster

3.  If you must drive off line all the time, then you are not really racing.  Either because your car is partially broken or you are choosing not to race.  Any car is capable of safely running the racing line otherwise.   We always ran the racing line in a 55HP Geo and never had an issue. (This will likely draw some venom... sorry)

4.  Lemons is too competitive in class A and B to pass in the straights only.  You will be passed in a corner.  We may get passed in a corner.  We make 3000+ passes per race.   Many are in a corner.

5.  If you are passing someone in a corner, stay close to them.  I know this sounds backwards, but if they are going to turn into you they can’t build up much momentum in a foot but they can really wallop you if you are 10 feet away and they turn into you.

6.  Plan ahead!!!  If you are gonna pit... then let us all know 2 corners ahead... don’t choose to do it mid corner at Barber and nail someone...

7.  If you are a fast car.. be predictably fast.  Plan your passes and move deliberately.  If you are racing with another fast car don’t be a jerk to everyone else while trying to keep up with the other car.  If you get blocked in traffic, take your medicine and wait.  Don’t force it. 

8.  Never run a defensive line... EVER.   This is an enduro, not a sprint race.  There is no place for blocking here.

9.  Drive 7/10ths if this is your first time in someone else’s car, 8/10ths if it is someone else’s car you normally drive, 9/10ths if first time in your own car and then keep it below 10/10ths no matter what.   10/10ths is putting your car on the edge and 99% of us don’t have the ability to turns laps for 2 hours at 10/10ths.

10.   Safety is number one. Everyone on the track is your friend and someone’s father, mother, brother, sister, husband or wife.  No matter how boneheaded anyone might be on track, they deserve to get home safely anyway.  Treat everyone like you’re racing with your 16 yo daughter.


Some of these may be  contrary to what is said in the rookie meeting, I’m not sure what Steve says now.   This is just my opinion after 35 or so Lemons races racing C,B and A cars.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

Unwritten rule for pitting: most tracks have a fairly narrow point of entry for the pit crew to enter pit road with fuel and accessories. If you are not in the process of proceeding expeditiously through the entry point, then stand well clear of the entry. Rookie teams often wait anxiously outside the gate while blocking its access for teams that are ready to proceed. Also, upon exiting through the gate, get well clear of the gate area before you stop moving and begin chatting with your teammates.

#9 Scooby Doo Car known as the Mystery Machine and the #44 Audi 4KQ painted as a tribute car to the 1989 IMSA  car driven by Haywood, Stuck, and Rohrl.

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

We always ran the racing line in a 55HP Geo and never had an issue.

Well, yeah, when you're in an overpowered brute of a machine like that, of course you can run the line.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: (Unwritten) Rules of Lemons Racing

RobL wrote:

In dense traffic, people here tend to form two lanes.  You then stick to your lane until traffic clears and/or you can make a safe pass. 

I'd be curious to watch some of your laps and see how you do handle traffic.  I'm wondering if this is regional or per track etiquette that has developed.

Here is part of one of my stints (Rob vs. Rob - A friend of mine is in the brick mustang and I am in our mustang).  The yellow car gives us room on the inside to get our passes done.  Which according to you is risky/sprint car passing.  I then give room to right to let the BMW pass and get to the apex.  I lose a little time but I didn't wipe him out since it would have been his responsibility to make a clean pass while I move to the apex.  Then in the next corner, I pass the Subaru mid/late turn after he allows room.  https://youtu.be/2ROAhjuOqRE?t=18m15s

You can see exactly what I'm talking about at 26:51 when two cars leave the apex open for me to dive into.  And then a few turns later a blue and while car does the same thing - leaves room to the apex to (apparently) let me go.  Then one turn later, I do the same and let the honda go.

That was some fine traffic management.

"She's a brick house" 57th out of 121 and 5th in Class C, There Goes the Neighborhood 2013
"PA Posse" 21st out of 96 and 2nd in Class C, Capitol Offense 2013.
"PA Posse" 29th out of 133 and Class C WINNER, Halloween Hooptiefest 2013
"PA Posse" 33rd out of 151 and 2nd in Class C, The Real Hoopties 2013