1 (edited by darkostoj 2018-08-01 06:00 AM)

Topic: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

EDIT: follow the build on instagram @rollsroycedoesntcare

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Hey guys, just did my first race on my friends team and it was a super fun time.  Since then I have been thinking about building a car non-stop and bought a crappy 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow.

From the research I did there was one that ran, but it was so slow that it was a hazard and not allowed to run again.

To be able to make this car compete the 3 problems I see are swapping in a manual, fixing the brakes, and fixing the suspension.

To swap a manual would cost so much money with custom fabrication that I think it would be easier/cheaper to swap something else.  The Factory engine already uses an adapter to convert the RR pattern to BOP pattern and uses a BOP pattern TH400. Adapting anything requires a giant custom flywheel that has to be custom machined $$$. Its a shame because I love the factory 6.75L V8 in these. As far as engine/trans swaps go the easiest and cheapest I can think of is a LS style setup...super boring, but also super cheap.  The car has many GM parts on it, so it makes sense to keep it somewhat GM.

As far as suspension/brakes the factory engine uses high pressure hydraulic pumps driven off the engine camshaft to power the suspension leveling & brakes TOGETHER! Pretty dumb if you ask me, and might be why 50% of these cars have braking/suspension problems. To fix this I would have to build a completely new suspension/brake setup, which is a huge amount of work.

So I guess my main question is, would it be cool with the judges and the other racers if I spent the time to swap in a new drive train and fix the suspension & brakes?  If I do the work, do a good job, and invest all this time into the car it I would hate for our team to show up and get a ton of penalty laps.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make is I want to build an awesome car, but don't want to build one that is not in the Spirit of Lemons. I'm hoping to get some insight from the people on the forum to help build the car.

Thanks!

https://i.imgur.com/MC4RJQy.jpg

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

3 Pedal Mafia is the team that ran the Rolls.  Find user 'Sonic' here in the forums and message him for advice.  The brakes and suspension systems are hugely complicated and not easily bodged. I'd forget the trans, racing an auto isnt that bad and the TH400 probably will be stronger than whatever else you put in there.  I suspect the biggest limiting factor was the soft suspension with three feet of travel.  I'd spend all your efforts there.  Or drop the drivetrain in something else and hang the RR sheet metal on it.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

They're not big on penalty laps when you have a car this big and this slow. Even if you make it better, it still isn't going to be quick until you put something like a 500 hp LS in, and then you still have to make it turn and stop. I've worked on a Bentley Turbo R and a few Silver Shadows, I don't think I'd trust those brakes for repeated track use. They are engineered to a high standard, but think about this: there are six calipers, the third pair is there to give the pedal FEEL. They are there to make the brakes feel like other car brakes. No joke. Seems to me the potential for butt-puckering fade is very real. (You won't feel it until the fluid is boiling on the #3 circuit...) and IIRC, the fluid used is totally unrelated to ordinary DOT 3/4 fluid. You can't Motul RBF600 your way out of it smile

I think you can basically do what you want (modifications wise) if you're racing a Rolls with a rolls engine, as far as penalty laps are concerned. Agree with Cheseroo that the TH400 is just fine for this kind of track work, and it's about the last thing that needs to get changed.

#888-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140...
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15,'17, '18. Inde '16,'17,'18. Other foolishness: Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Check with HQ.  I believe that 3PM were asked not to bring the back since it was slow.  It sound like, with the swap, you might not be that slow, but check to be sure.

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5 (edited by chaase 2018-07-09 07:59 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

RobL wrote:

Check with HQ.  I believe that 3PM were asked not to bring the back since it was slow.  It sound like, with the swap, you might not be that slow, but check to be sure.

This is your best bet. You will need a plan. Aside from it being slow, it will most likely be overweight and require a waiver. They love stuff like this but they have to balance things out. A very, very slow car can be a hazard, especially if not driven properly.

I do like the other suggestion of using the RR body on another vehicle frame.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

There's a ton of hurdles to overcome. Talking to the 3PM guys, the reason they said they never just replaced the brake system was there is no place for a conventional master/booster. So they stuck with the OEM setup and made it a rule that you just never used them unless absolutely necessary. To redo the brakes you'd need to find a way to get a conventional master/booster in the car (I don't think you want manual brakes on a car that heavy).

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Might see if you can put the front end sheetmetal and  trunk on a volvo.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

There's a ton of hurdles to overcome. Talking to the 3PM guys, the reason they said they never just replaced the brake system was there is no place for a conventional master/booster. So they stuck with the OEM setup and made it a rule that you just never used them unless absolutely necessary. To redo the brakes you'd need to find a way to get a conventional master/booster in the car (I don't think you want manual brakes on a car that heavy).

I can think of how to do the brakes. But it means giving up the interior which may be sacrelidge.

OP is spot on about eliminating the high pressure hydraulic system, but I think the drivetrain would probably be fine once it could turn and slow down reliably.

So fab a pedal box, mounts for a conventional suspension, cage it, and it should be raceable.

Curb weight is 4,762 lbs so it will need a waver, but I suspect not having to run a 3,000 psi hydraulic pump may give it more power than you think.

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88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Guildenstern wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

There's a ton of hurdles to overcome. Talking to the 3PM guys, the reason they said they never just replaced the brake system was there is no place for a conventional master/booster. So they stuck with the OEM setup and made it a rule that you just never used them unless absolutely necessary. To redo the brakes you'd need to find a way to get a conventional master/booster in the car (I don't think you want manual brakes on a car that heavy).

I can think of how to do the brakes. But it means giving up the interior which may be sacrelidge.

OP is spot on about eliminating the high pressure hydraulic system, but I think the drivetrain would probably be fine once it could turn and slow down reliably.

So fab a pedal box, mounts for a conventional suspension, cage it, and it should be raceable.

Curb weight is 4,762 lbs so it will need a waver, but I suspect not having to run a 3,000 psi hydraulic pump may give it more power than you think.

As much as it sucks, I was planning on completely gutting the interior...I think its the only way to shed a lot of weight and have the build of the car be much easier by getting rid of all the complicated & expensive RR stuff.

So where I am sitting now is trying to graft a front and rear subframe on the body from other cars, putting in a reliable engine/trans likely an LS, and installing a conventional style brake system off a pedal box.

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

I personally would recommend grafting the RR skin onto a lighter, more conventional platform with a similar wheelbase. If your donor platform already included many of the desired components...suspension, engine, transmission, etc....maybe even a cage and safety components...you would be WAY ahead of the game and have a better chance of actually racing the car in lieu of problem solving. This would likely be safer than grafting in a front and rear subframe that were not designed for the potential GVW. The RR skin alone will get you through BS without any penalty laps...just grafting two completely different cars together lands you in the Spirit of Lemons...my two cents.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:

As much as it sucks, I was planning on completely gutting the interior...I think its the only way to shed a lot of weight and have the build of the car be much easier by getting rid of all the complicated & expensive RR stuff.

So where I am sitting now is trying to graft a front and rear subframe on the body from other cars, putting in a reliable engine/trans likely an LS, and installing a conventional style brake system off a pedal box.

Why can't a normal brake booster be installed? Is the engine compartment too cramped? If so, the engine swap may resolve the issue. Another option is you can buy pedal systems with remote master cylinder mounts. Summit Racing, and I am sure other people, sell electric vacuum pumps and stand alone resevoirs. Cars w/aggressive cams don't generate a lot of vacuum so electric is common.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
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12 (edited by cheseroo 2018-07-09 03:03 PM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

^ My understanding is that the brake pedal actuates a bunch of high pressure control valves under the floorboard.  From there, it actuates a conventional low (relatively) pressure type system.  And then there's some sort of hi/low pressure secondary system redundancy built into it that I don't quite understand.  It isn't the pedal-pushing-a-rod-against-a-firewall-mounted-master that we are used to seeing and it sounds like there isn't room for one of those anyway.  I kinda like the idea of plopping the body onto something else but I'm of the belief that the RR drivetrain itself would be fine to use.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

cheseroo wrote:

^ My understanding is that the brake pedal actuates a bunch of high pressure control valves under the floorboard.  From there, it actuates a conventional low (relatively) pressure type system.  And then there's some sort of hi/low pressure secondary system redundancy built into it that I don't quite understand.  It isn't the pedal-pushing-a-rod-against-a-firewall-mounted-master that we are used to seeing and it sounds like there isn't room for one of those anyway.  I kinda like the idea of plopping the body onto something else but I'm of the belief that the RR drivetrain itself would be fine to use.

That sounds terrible. An aftermarket pedal system might be the way to go. We did that for the Rover when we converted it to stick-shift. The Rover has manual brakes. Its fine once you get used to it but the RR is a lot heavier.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

cheseroo wrote:

...I'm of the belief that the RR drivetrain itself would be fine to use.

Agreed. Throw away that heavy Silver Shadow body, keep everything else, and drop some LTD sheetmetal onto it. Instant domination.

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1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
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15 (edited by chaase 2018-07-09 03:49 PM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Speedway motors has lots of options This is who we got the Rover pedal from.This sounds like what you would need. It is a power brake  and clutch system that mounts under the floor. great if you want to do a stick conversion. They have a lot of options other than that.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/TCI-600- … 46286.html

They also have a universal frame mount for just the brakes.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Universa … 74286.html

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
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16 (edited by Guildenstern 2018-07-09 06:48 PM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

derp double post

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88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
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17 (edited by Guildenstern 2018-07-09 06:57 PM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

There's a ton of hurdles to overcome. Talking to the 3PM guys, the reason they said they never just replaced the brake system was there is no place for a conventional master/booster. So they stuck with the OEM setup and made it a rule that you just never used them unless absolutely necessary. To redo the brakes you'd need to find a way to get a conventional master/booster in the car (I don't think you want manual brakes on a car that heavy).

I can think of how to do the brakes. But it means giving up the interior which may be sacrelidge.

OP is spot on about eliminating the high pressure hydraulic system, but I think the drivetrain would probably be fine once it could turn and slow down reliably.

So fab a pedal box, mounts for a conventional suspension, cage it, and it should be raceable.

Curb weight is 4,762 lbs so it will need a waver, but I suspect not having to run a 3,000 psi hydraulic pump may give it more power than you think.

As much as it sucks, I was planning on completely gutting the interior...I think its the only way to shed a lot of weight and have the build of the car be much easier by getting rid of all the complicated & expensive RR stuff.

So where I am sitting now is trying to graft a front and rear subframe on the body from other cars, putting in a reliable engine/trans likely an LS, and installing a conventional style brake system off a pedal box.

What's wrong with the original subframes? Shouldn't be too tricky to eliminate the rear ride leveling. Just run the RR engine and the TH400 with a reverse manual valve body like the Hughes HP2211EBR and a ratchet shifter and ofcouse a big ass trans cooler.

And Cherrybomb side pipes, You haven't lived until you've heard an open piped RR.

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A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

RR body, engine, trans all transferred into/on top of a 99 silverado frame with conventional suspension/brakes?

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Team Infinniti wrote:

RR body, engine, trans all transferred into/on top of a 99 silverado frame with conventional suspension/brakes?

Or just start with a silverado and lots of cardboard and bondo.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

I don't think just adding a universal master/booster under the floorboards will do it.  Only one set of the rear calipers (each wheel has two calipers) operates at "normal" master cylinder pressure levels.  The other 6 calipers operate at high pressure.  I'm don't think Speedy Bill has brake masters that operate 6 high pressure calipers in his catalog.  You'd have to come up with a complete new braking system from master to caliper and it would need to be massive so I guess I'd start by looking for something like a NASCAR Bristol brake system from 10 years ago that's big but outdated to make it affordable(ish). 

http://www.rrsilvershadow.com/Techn/Hydr/BestH/Remintro-01.gif

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
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1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
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21 (edited by chaase 2018-07-10 10:27 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Team Infinniti wrote:

RR body, engine, trans all transferred into/on top of a 99 silverado frame with conventional suspension/brakes?

You could call it the Rolls Rado

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1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
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22 (edited by chaase 2018-07-10 11:04 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

cheseroo wrote:

I don't think just adding a universal master/booster under the floorboards will do it.  Only one set of the rear calipers (each wheel has two calipers) operates at "normal" master cylinder pressure levels.  The other 6 calipers operate at high pressure.  I'm don't think Speedy Bill has brake masters that operate 6 high pressure calipers in his catalog.  You'd have to come up with a complete new braking system from master to caliper and it would need to be massive so I guess I'd start by looking for something like a NASCAR Bristol brake system from 10 years ago that's big but outdated to make it affordable(ish). 

http://www.rrsilvershadow.com/Techn/Hydr/BestH/Remintro-01.gif


Holy schnikes! That is awful. You are right. He would probably need to start from scratch. We custom fabbed the brackets for the Rover to adapt Wilwood Calipers for the front rotors. We used the stock rear setup because it was crazy inboard brakes. The rear system would have to be fabricated unless it shared some GM parts.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

See, I wasn't making it up! It has a master cyl and calipers there just so that it will FEEL LIKE BRAKES. What an insane setup.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

There's no question that you'd need to start from scratch. The caliper system was designed for that mess, so most likely would not work with a conversion to a more conventional system. I don't think you need to go crazy with ex-nascar stuff, but you would need a system designed to handle a lot of weight. And you'd need a lot of cooling.

Suspension is another big question. I think the shocks on the silver shadow II are some absurd length like 31inches or near that. I assume this car is similar. The good news is I think the front is double A-arm so you could modify the shock landing points to use a shorter shock without screwing the geometry, thought you'd need to look at how much travel you need to maintain. Rears, no idea. The kid that built the no f*cks given RX7 also built a silver shadow II, and he went with custom King offroad shocks.

I'd leave the engine, they're not super fragile. Something dumb like 7-8:1 compression (which means you need to add boost clearly).


The question is if you're willing to spend the money do to something like this. Converting the brakes will be $$$$, which is fine because brakes are budget exempt. Messing with the suspension will also be expensive. If you're on a budget, the easy answer is drop the body onto something else.

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25 (edited by chaase 2018-07-10 11:27 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

The question is if you're willing to spend the money do to something like this. Converting the brakes will be $$$$, which is fine because brakes are budget exempt. Messing with the suspension will also be expensive. If you're on a budget, the easy answer is drop the body onto something else.

I think a good fabricator can redo the brake system. It will cost money to get quality parts and sized properly. To me, the rear is the unknown. Who made it? If it is one of the big three, then they have a better chance of getting a rear setup from another vehicle and getting to work.  It has a Th400 and if it goes into a Chevy 12-bolt then you have lots of option for rear brakes, you just have to get it to mount up but plenty of parts available for a big, heavy vehicle.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge