Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Rustyjeep wrote:

I use an "Airlift" brand coolant vacuum system at work. I use it to vacuum down and remove air from system, and also to verify repairs by watching for any vacuum decay.

I have it in my Amazon cart.  I was kicking around the idea of ordering it. I like the idea of pulling vacuum.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

We're also fighting cooling issues.

Get the largest oil cooler you can in there, two if you have to. It's often overlooked how much cooling the oil helps with overall engine temps. The RX7 units are great, but can be pricey. With your shop I'm sure you can find some very large, high flowing, low restriction coolers kicking around somewhere.

I forget what your fan setup is on the radiator. Best bet is buy a good electric fan, make a shroud that fits over the back side, and run the fan constantly.

Once the fan is sorted, seal up the front end and duct all openings to feed the radiator. Force the air through it without letting it spill around anywhere.

Getting air out from behind the radiator can be the hard part. Vents can help or really hurt you depending on placement. Use something like a Magnehelic gauge to measure the air pressure at various points on the hood at speed, then place your vents in a low pressure area. Belly pans like mentioned can help as well. Take a look at your wheel wells too, if you have no wheel liner, and no way for high pressure air to get out, you might be pressurizing the engine bay a little bit through there.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

How about a ghetto heat extractor?

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Looking back through the thread, I noticed this pic:

https://i.imgur.com/ezqByaA.jpg

The engine is very close to the radiator.  The engine is likely restricting the airflow through the radiator.  If possible, move the radiator forward some.

I also noticed that it is heavily shrouded.  Large shrouds are needed if you spend a lot of time in traffic and need the fan to pull as much air through the radiator as possible.  At speed, the shroud actually becomes a restriction.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

We're also fighting cooling issues.

Get the largest oil cooler you can in there, two if you have to. It's often overlooked how much cooling the oil helps with overall engine temps. The RX7 units are great, but can be pricey. With your shop I'm sure you can find some very large, high flowing, low restriction coolers kicking around somewhere.

I forget what your fan setup is on the radiator. Best bet is buy a good electric fan, make a shroud that fits over the back side, and run the fan constantly.

Once the fan is sorted, seal up the front end and duct all openings to feed the radiator. Force the air through it without letting it spill around anywhere.

Getting air out from behind the radiator can be the hard part. Vents can help or really hurt you depending on placement. Use something like a Magnehelic gauge to measure the air pressure at various points on the hood at speed, then place your vents in a low pressure area. Belly pans like mentioned can help as well. Take a look at your wheel wells too, if you have no wheel liner, and no way for high pressure air to get out, you might be pressurizing the engine bay a little bit through there.

Whoa, looked up a Magnehilic gauge..and wow I can do a lot with that!  I found a book that goes over Aerodynamics that uses a Magnehelic gauge for testing.  I think I may pick it up. The author had a few really informational YouTube videos.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71yc79rrE4L.jpg

rlchv70 wrote:

Looking back through the thread, I noticed this pic:

https://i.imgur.com/ezqByaA.jpg

The engine is very close to the radiator.  The engine is likely restricting the airflow through the radiator.  If possible, move the radiator forward some.

I also noticed that it is heavily shrouded.  Large shrouds are needed if you spend a lot of time in traffic and need the fan to pull as much air through the radiator as possible.  At speed, the shroud actually becomes a restriction.

Yes, there is very little clearance between the engine and radiator. Moving the radiator forward would require a lot of fabrication and basically cutting out all the factory sheet metal from the front core support.

I also thought shrouding the radiator is best, and I basically shrouded the hell out of it.  Would it be better to remove the shroud and have just a fan and leave the rest of the radiator open? 

It makes sense the shroud is there to help the electric fan efficiency when wind speed is low through the radiator...but i can see how it could hurt cooling efficiency when when speed is high.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

These SPAL fan shroud flaps are kind of a neat way around that.  Its like a check valve that opens when the shroud is restricting cooling, but closes when the fan is doing most the cooling.

http://image.hotrod.com/f/8911160%2Bw660%2Bh495%2Bcr1/hppp_0802_10_z%252Bpontiac_cooling_system_upgrade%252Bspal_shroud.jpg

They are only a couple bucks each
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spu- … gKp_PD_BwE


Probably going to take more than that to solve your issue but not a bad idea to start.

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582 (edited by chaase 2018-10-25 10:16 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:

Yes, there is very little clearance between the engine and radiator. Moving the radiator forward would require a lot of fabrication and basically cutting out all the factory sheet metal from the front core support.

I also thought shrouding the radiator is best, and I basically shrouded the hell out of it.  Would it be better to remove the shroud and have just a fan and leave the rest of the radiator open? 

It makes sense the shroud is there to help the electric fan efficiency when wind speed is low through the radiator...but i can see how it could hurt cooling efficiency when when speed is high.

Can you change up the bracket and tilt the radiator forward and open up the hood to help the air get out? Aside from a lack of airflow, the radiator will soak heat from the engine.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Those fan shroud flaps look awesome. I don't think they're going to solve their problem completely, but i'm going to grab some since our radiator is also 100% enclosed.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

The flaps will help, but I would just remove the shroud for racing.

Tilting the radiator some would help as well.

585 (edited by darkostoj 2018-10-25 10:22 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

chaase wrote:
darkostoj wrote:

Yes, there is very little clearance between the engine and radiator. Moving the radiator forward would require a lot of fabrication and basically cutting out all the factory sheet metal from the front core support.

I also thought shrouding the radiator is best, and I basically shrouded the hell out of it.  Would it be better to remove the shroud and have just a fan and leave the rest of the radiator open? 

It makes sense the shroud is there to help the electric fan efficiency when wind speed is low through the radiator...but i can see how it could hurt cooling efficiency when when speed is high.

Can you change up the bracket and tilt the radiator forward and open up the hood to help the air get out?

That would also require a ton of fab work. 

TheEngineer wrote:

Those fan shroud flaps look awesome. I don't think they're going to solve their problem completely, but i'm going to grab some since our radiator is also 100% enclosed.

I did this calculator online and it roughly says at 100mph I would be bringing in roughly 750 CFM of airflow through the radiator.  I think my fan is roughly 2-3k CFM. 

Am I understanding it right that the fan will pull ~3x more air through the radiator than the wind speed at 100mph?

https://www.engineering.com/calculators/airflow.htm

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

I think you entered the wrong number somewhere on that website.
I put in a 20 X 32 radiator at 100 MPH and it gave 8,800 CFM.
So without a shroud that would be about 3-4 times what your fan can do.
Like they said before fan shrouds are for sitting in traffic.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

That number seems low, but I have no idea what values you used for the area. I entered a 14"x16" opening at 60mph and got 8kCFM. Our bumper opening is smaller, likely 12"x8" all combined now that I have all the ducting to bring all air to the radiator and I get about 3kCFM.

The real world is not that simple unfortunately.
Air moves when you have a high and low pressure. If you have a high pressure engine bay, or no where for the air to go after the radiator, your flow will suck even with a fan because there is just nowhere to move the air. Think of an inflatable bouncy house. The fans on those move a lot of air really quickly, right until the thing is full, then all the fan does is maintain pressure, not move a lot of air. Your tiny gap between the engine and radiator is doing something similar. If your engine bay is also getting pressurized from other sources, it's just even harder to get air through.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Some simple questions. Are there any points in your cooling system that is higher than your fill location that can be trapping air and keeping it from moving water?  Are you sure your radiator cap is good and pressurizing or is it losing pressure somewhere?  I have seen secondary fill locations be added at the highest point in the system, and have seen other get brand new caps that are bad and don't hold pressure.

Something I learned from Spank is run your overflow line to the windshield and point it in an area your driver will see it.  If it is overflowing at the cap, you will know immediately from water all over your windshield.  Easier to see then a temperature gauge.

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589 (edited by jiggermyster 2018-10-25 10:36 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:

...

It already has a pretty big oil cooler on it mounted in front of the radiator.
...

I haven't seen anyone else mention it, so I will.
That oil cooler could warming up the air before it gets to the radiator.
ed: and disturbing the air flow through the radiator.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

rb92673 wrote:

Something I learned from Spank is run your overflow line to the windshield and point it in an area your driver will see it.  If it is overflowing at the cap, you will know immediately from water all over your windshield.  Easier to see then a temperature gauge.

Be careful with this if it's your only indicator, depending on your coolant system pressure once water is coming out you may already be boned. A 4psi system will boil at over 220F, which is already dangerous for an aluminum block. A 9psi system boils at around 235. If you see water coming out in anything remotely modern, you have a problem.

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591 (edited by darkostoj 2018-10-25 12:05 PM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

That number seems low, but I have no idea what values you used for the area. I entered a 14"x16" opening at 60mph and got 8kCFM. Our bumper opening is smaller, likely 12"x8" all combined now that I have all the ducting to bring all air to the radiator and I get about 3kCFM.

The real world is not that simple unfortunately.
Air moves when you have a high and low pressure. If you have a high pressure engine bay, or no where for the air to go after the radiator, your flow will suck even with a fan because there is just nowhere to move the air. Think of an inflatable bouncy house. The fans on those move a lot of air really quickly, right until the thing is full, then all the fan does is maintain pressure, not move a lot of air. Your tiny gap between the engine and radiator is doing something similar. If your engine bay is also getting pressurized from other sources, it's just even harder to get air through.

Ah shoot, I must have messed it up.  I went back and recalculated and I was getting almost 20k CFM @ 100mph

So:

In a car at speed it is best to have no fan and rely on the airflow through the radiator

In a car sitting at idle with low air speed it is best to optimize cooling at high ambient temperature and low air speed with a fully shrouded radiator fan.

It sounds like in regards to cooling it is best to have the smallest (even unshrouded) electric fan possible to not overheat while idling at the highest possible expected ambient temperature.  that way we get the most surface area that works with air flow through the radiator at speed.

Right?

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Kinda?

Again, depends on how well air actually flows through your setup. Fans can help in a case where your engine compartment would otherwise force a lot of re-circulation of air back around and through the radiator again, heating it up more and more. Or if you have a mildly pressurized engine compartment the fan and shroud might be enough to push through that and keep airflow up.

But if you have a properly vented engine bay, and a well ducted front end directing all air through the radiator, then no shroud can be better.

Also depends on track conditions. If you're running in a tight pack you can have shockingly little airflow from your forward motion as it's all blocked by other cars. In that case the fans do help.

Similarly, fans will move more than their rated volume with help. If you have a high pressure on the "suck" side, and a low pressure on the "blow" side, they'll move more than their rated numbers, so they aren't that big of a restriction.


TL;DR, I didn't give you anything straightforward for an answer. Focus your attention on making sure the air has somewhere to go after the radiator. Right now you're trying to cram a bunch of air into a space that doesn't really exist.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:
rb92673 wrote:

Something I learned from Spank is run your overflow line to the windshield and point it in an area your driver will see it.  If it is overflowing at the cap, you will know immediately from water all over your windshield.  Easier to see then a temperature gauge.

Be careful with this if it's your only indicator, depending on your coolant system pressure once water is coming out you may already be boned. A 4psi system will boil at over 220F, which is already dangerous for an aluminum block. A 9psi system boils at around 235. If you see water coming out in anything remotely modern, you have a problem.

I would certainly not recommend this as the only indicator, but I do know that drivers don't necessarily look at gauges, but they will see water squirting in their face.  Good point though.

Temp gauges are good.  Big idiot lights for overheating or loss of cooling pressure are good too.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

That number seems low, but I have no idea what values you used for the area. I entered a 14"x16" opening at 60mph and got 8kCFM. Our bumper opening is smaller, likely 12"x8" all combined now that I have all the ducting to bring all air to the radiator and I get about 3kCFM.

The real world is not that simple unfortunately.
Air moves when you have a high and low pressure. If you have a high pressure engine bay, or no where for the air to go after the radiator, your flow will suck even with a fan because there is just nowhere to move the air. Think of an inflatable bouncy house. The fans on those move a lot of air really quickly, right until the thing is full, then all the fan does is maintain pressure, not move a lot of air. Your tiny gap between the engine and radiator is doing something similar. If your engine bay is also getting pressurized from other sources, it's just even harder to get air through.

Ah shoot, I must have messed it up.  I went back and recalculated and I was getting almost 20k CFM @ 100mph

So:

In a car at speed it is best to have no fan and rely on the airflow through the radiator

In a car sitting at idle with low air speed it is best to optimize cooling at high ambient temperature and low air speed with a fully shrouded radiator fan.

It sounds like in regards to cooling it is best to have the smallest (even unshrouded) electric fan possible to not overheat while idling at the highest possible expected ambient temperature.  that way we get the most surface area that works with air flow through the radiator at speed.

Right?

To simplify it, yes.  As The Engineer wrote, there can be complicating factors that can make exceptions to the rules, but you basically got it.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

rb92673 wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:
rb92673 wrote:

Something I learned from Spank is run your overflow line to the windshield and point it in an area your driver will see it.  If it is overflowing at the cap, you will know immediately from water all over your windshield.  Easier to see then a temperature gauge.

Be careful with this if it's your only indicator, depending on your coolant system pressure once water is coming out you may already be boned. A 4psi system will boil at over 220F, which is already dangerous for an aluminum block. A 9psi system boils at around 235. If you see water coming out in anything remotely modern, you have a problem.

I would certainly not recommend this as the only indicator, but I do know that drivers don't necessarily look at gauges, but they will see water squirting in their face.  Good point though.

Temp gauges are good.  Big idiot lights for overheating or loss of cooling pressure are good too.

Keep in mind that if you lose coolant pressure (bad cap), then your coolant will boil at 212F.  This is well within the "normal" range on most gauges.  Hose in the face or coolant pressure sensor are good ideas to detect this.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

rb92673 wrote:

Something I learned from Spank is run your overflow line to the windshield and point it in an area your driver will see it.  If it is overflowing at the cap, you will know immediately from water all over your windshield.  Easier to see then a temperature gauge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQH7do8rzM&t=22s
At 1:29 Spank films my car spewing water. Iron heads and block - I wouldn't recommend it as the only overheat warning on an aluminum motor. We could do another lap after it spewed with no damage to the head gaskets.

597 (edited by darkostoj 2018-10-29 04:28 PM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Starting to get back to work on the car and kicking around ideas.

Pedal knock back was from the rear axle.  If I tighten up all the pads and rotate the right rear wheel one revolution the inside brake pad has about 1/16 clearance and is loose in the housing.

So, something is bent and with it being from 1958 I would like to put in something else.

I can either continue with the suspension I have and run a solid axle.  Kinda pricey for a new axle and have to re-do all the brackets.

OR

I can play around with building an IRS setup. I would probably build my own subframe and mount a Gen V Diff to the chassis, then build my own control arms.  Use either a Vette or Gen V camaro knuckle/brake setup.

Thoughts??

Also, debating on going with 18's and a 26" tire (Compared to the 20's and 29" tire on it now) to lower the car some. 

PRO:
more tires available
cheaper tires
less rotating mass

CON:
Not even remotely as sweet and cool looking.

Also, is there an optimal sidewall size?  35, 40, 45, etc?

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

You seem to like fab work, and you have less of a deadline now, so I vote build something awesome.

I'm not a tire expert, but optimal sidewall depends a lot on other factors like tire width compared to wheel width, aka how much you are stretching or pinching a tire. I'll let someone else chime in with a better answer.

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:

Starting to get back to work on the car and kicking around ideas.

Pedal knock back was from the rear axle.  If I tighten up all the pads and rotate the right rear wheel one revolution the inside brake pad has about 1/16 clearance and is loose in the housing.

So, something is bent and with it being from 1958 I would like to put in something else.

I can either continue with the suspension I have and run a solid axle.  Kinda pricey for a new axle and have to re-do all the brackets.

OR

I can play around with building an IRS setup. I would probably build my own subframe and mount a Gen V Diff to the chassis, then build my own control arms.  Use either a Vette or Gen V camaro knuckle/brake setup.

I vote for getting an IRS in the car. I don't have to do the work so that doesn't bother me 8-)

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Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

^ Well, a number of IRS setups are their own little subsystem so I would think it easier to squarely mount one of them over fabbing up a bunch of individual link points that locate the axle.

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