Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Based on the quality of work you've already shown I'm sure you already have this covered, but don't overlook reinforcing the area that the pivots are mounted. That area will see a lot of load and you don't want it moving around. Looking good though.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

702 (edited by DirtyDuc 2019-06-12 09:47 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

I've been wrapped up in a separate suspension project for my lsr bike, so I probably missed it: what's the tube/holey block/aluminum tube contraption supposed to do?

I ask because I think it is adding multiple complexities that you might not need/want, and could be replaced with a couple of pieces of plate. Set ride height and forget it.

On the other hand, you might be looking for added complexity, in which case have at it.

That guy

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

All tacked and under its own weight!

https://i.imgur.com/k29CqZn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/q2jgmFG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/e3QYyid.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/u44PT15.jpg

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award

704

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

chaase wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:
chaase wrote:

Use one of the buttons for a drink system. We set up a small cooler with water stored in it attached to a 12v pump controlled by the button.

We tried that, and the pump was too strong.  It was like having a small fire hose in your mouth.  I probably need to revisit the idea and use a flow/speed control to make it more user friendly.

What type of pump? We use a windshield washer fluid pump. Its a little string but once you get used to it, its fine.

Delicious methanol.
"Sorry judge, I didn't see that car I dive bombed in the last corner. I think my water is making me go blind. May I go back to racing now?"

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

705

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

Based on the quality of work you've already shown I'm sure you already have this covered, but don't overlook reinforcing the area that the pivots are mounted. That area will see a lot of load and you don't want it moving around. Looking good though.

I LOVE the amount of complexity he's got going on with this build. It's totally fascinating.
-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

gunn wrote:
chaase wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

We tried that, and the pump was too strong.  It was like having a small fire hose in your mouth.  I probably need to revisit the idea and use a flow/speed control to make it more user friendly.

What type of pump? We use a windshield washer fluid pump. Its a little string but once you get used to it, its fine.

Delicious methanol.
"Sorry judge, I didn't see that car I dive bombed in the last corner. I think my water is making me go blind. May I go back to racing now?"

Hey! The methanol has a cooling affect

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1 - needs a theme
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - Organizer's Choice

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Rear is kind of done-ish.  Really reached with this thing.

https://i.imgur.com/2oErkfC.jpg


Anybody have any ideas why this dang thing is running so hot? 

I was running it in gear on the lift and keeping it around 3k rpm and the temp climbed to 225 in like 30 seconds.  What is going on!?!

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Building temp that fast seems like water isnt circulating at all.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

cheseroo wrote:

Building temp that fast seems like water isnt circulating at all.

I bypassed and plugged the heater hoses on the engine. I wonder if there is a way of figuring out the coolant flow if I screwed it up by plugging all the outlets.

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

When you say heater hoses I assume you mean the hoses to the heater core? Usually you can't just plug them, they're part of a loop, so you need to just loop them together. A lot of engines use that as the circulation path when the thermostat is closed so it isn't circulating through the radiator. Obviously i'm not super familiar with the dodge V10, but I'd start with that.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Seeing as you run a salvage yard, I'm sure you have access to a lot of resources we don't, but if you don't have the factory service manual for the viper, get a copy (should be able to find a PDF download somewhere). Of all the factory manuals I've used, the chrysler ones are shockingly some of the better ones. Should be able to find cooling system info that would help you out. Engine stuff is usually section 8, forget the letter subsection for cooling system off the top of my head.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

712 (edited by darkostoj 2019-06-18 05:24 AM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

Seeing as you run a salvage yard, I'm sure you have access to a lot of resources we don't, but if you don't have the factory service manual for the viper, get a copy (should be able to find a PDF download somewhere). Of all the factory manuals I've used, the chrysler ones are shockingly some of the better ones. Should be able to find cooling system info that would help you out. Engine stuff is usually section 8, forget the letter subsection for cooling system off the top of my head.

My first step is connecting it all back together. There was one hose coming out of the water pump and one towards the rear of the engine. Those are both plugged now. I'm going to connect them together and I really hope that fixes it.

Still struggling to get this thing ready for race day. It never ends!!!

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

When you say heater hoses I assume you mean the hoses to the heater core? Usually you can't just plug them, they're part of a loop, so you need to just loop them together. A lot of engines use that as the circulation path when the thermostat is closed so it isn't circulating through the radiator. Obviously i'm not super familiar with the dodge V10, but I'd start with that.

This.  Its the top mistake when removing a heater, you need to follow the stock setup and in many cases instead of plugging put a bypass hose in instead.  Otherwise you may not be circulating water all the way at all.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hopelessness) Award Winners

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

https://www.carpdfmanual.com/dodge/

there's the 2005 Viper manuals near the bottom of the list. Section 7 is cooling.


Get the cooling system plumbed to stock configuration, meaning stock overflow tank (I couldn't tell from pictures in this thread if you have it), all the lines that run around to the heater core (loop them together), the lines that ran to the oil cooler (looped if you pulled that), etc.

Per the above service manual the thermostat isn't a typical one that just opens the center, it's a sliding one that directs coolant to different routes in the engine. Under 185°F it should be directing all coolant back to the water pump through a bypass. At 185-219°F it mixes some bypass, some through radiator. Over 219°F it goes full radiator. 219 is way too hot for racing, may be worth modifying that system to just pump through the radiator all the time. But verify that things are working in stock form before you mod and add variables.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

Man, I've been on the carpdf manual site before and always got scared of downloading stuff because I thought it was going to be one of those sites that downloads randsomware and other crap to your computer. Probably a good idea to have a printed copy of the manual with us at the race.

I had to chop up the old thermostat housing and weld on a standard radiator neck on it, so no more thermostat.  If you look at the pictures you can see my handy dandy "on borrowed time" aluminum welds.

The flate plate is the torque tube cover off a corvette Z06 I cut up and the radiator neck is the best oriellys help section has to offer lol

https://i.imgur.com/6hdIh4P.jpg

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

That may have something to do with it then. If the viper uses a weird thermostat and you haven't blocked the bypass loop after removing it, it might be pushing mainly through the bypass loop, not the radiator, leading to the quick heating. Probably a good place to go look after you check all the other plugged lines.



I got the same vibe from that site. I downloaded that manual to a linux machine, checked that there were only PDFs in the rar file, then virus scanned them before opening. It seems ok. But caution is always wise.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

717

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:

I had to chop up the old thermostat housing and weld on a standard radiator neck on it, so no more thermostat.

FWIW, more than one car has overheated due to deleting the thermostat.  In some cases, the flow must be limited so the water actually has time to cool before returning to the engine.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

718

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

VKZ24 wrote:

FWIW, more than one car has overheated due to deleting the thermostat.  In some cases, the flow must be limited so the water actually has time to cool before returning to the engine.

Not true at all.  More mass flow of water also increases heat removal capability.
What screws things over is when you don't block the bypass and you have more water flow through the engine but less through the radiator.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

erich wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

FWIW, more than one car has overheated due to deleting the thermostat.  In some cases, the flow must be limited so the water actually has time to cool before returning to the engine.

Not true at all.  More mass flow of water also increases heat removal capability.
What screws things over is when you don't block the bypass and you have more water flow through the engine but less through the radiator.

If you ignore a bunch of other important variables, yes that statement is true in a general sense. The faster you can pump water through the engine without creating weird flow issues the better the heat removal capacity. However, the faster you pump the water, the worse the radiator works. Because in the radiator the water isn't the medium doing the cooling, the air moving through it is, and in general you aren't changing the rate and volume of air through the radiator when you change water speed through the cooling system. So if you pump water through the radiator too fast, it doesn't cool down as much, and then you start to counter your heat removal capacity gain from increased volumetric flow with the decrease that comes from using hotter water. Heat transfer relies on temperature differential after-all. So it's more complicated than saying "the more water you can push the better", because as with most things, there are trade offs.

Some cars do fine with no thermostat, because the radiator is over-sized and the increase in flow rate doesn't really lead to a coolant temp increase that hinders things. Some cars cannot run without a thermostat because it breaks the balance of the system and leads to a thermal runaway. There is no magic one line answer that solves all setups.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

720

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

So if you pump water through the radiator too fast, it doesn't cool down as much, and then you start to counter your heat removal capacity gain from increased volumetric flow with the decrease that comes from using hotter water.

I'm pretty sure this is the engineering explanation of what I just said.  smile

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

TheEngineer wrote:

So if you pump water through the radiator too fast, it doesn't cool down as much, and then you start to counter your heat removal capacity gain from increased volumetric flow with the decrease that comes from using hotter water. Heat transfer relies on temperature differential after-all. So it's more complicated than saying "the more water you can push the better", because as with most things, there are trade offs.

Some cars do fine with no thermostat, because the radiator is over-sized and the increase in flow rate doesn't really lead to a coolant temp increase that hinders things. Some cars cannot run without a thermostat because it breaks the balance of the system and leads to a thermal runaway. There is no magic one line answer that solves all setups.

Former cooling system engineer here.

Remember that it is a system.  You pump the water through the radiator faster, it doesn't cool off as much in the radiator, but it also doesn't heat up as much going through the engine.  The net difference is that the coolant runs cooler, all things being equal. Q=m * Cp * delta T

Problem is, things aren't equal.  The main problem is pressure.  Without a thermostat, the pressure in the upper hose and radiator are increased.  This can exceed their design pressure and leading to failures.

Increasing the flow rate may lead to hot spots in the engine and radiator, also causing unexpected failures.

Best practice is to keep a functioning thermostat.  Will let the engine warm up quickly and maintain its temp.

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

I agree with everything all the smart people said. 

However, this is what I did.

Carry on.

https://i.imgur.com/wkJRwCP.jpg

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

rlchv70 wrote:

Q=m * Cp * delta T


Smart guy over here   tongue

Yea, I do mostly agree. I think if you look at a finer detail with the temperature difference between block and coolant, and then air/radiator and coolant, along with the amount of time in contact with each, you'll find differences that will sway things one way or the other depending on flow rate, but that's so far into the weeds and specific engine dependent that it doesn't matter. End result is the same, some cars deal with thermostat removal fine. Others do not. Whether that reason is pressures, or flow issues (there is such a thing as trying to move too fast), or what is different for each system.



Looks like darkostoj dealt with the issue already anyway though.

My suggestion? run the "In" of the system to a 5 gallon bucket, and the out to another, and run it a minute and see if it's flowing the rate you think it should be. Will tell you if there's issues in the system somewhere.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

724 (edited by darkostoj 2019-06-25 04:55 PM)

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

So been working around the clock on this dumb thing, but finally got it driving.

https://youtu.be/4zkC6J-J9nY

https://i.imgur.com/zCuUQiF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LeIGjXc.jpg

It broke.

https://i.imgur.com/Cvv8vyH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jAL1sDE.jpg

#sup

https://i.imgur.com/U985m5p.jpg

Team Pacific Motors - 1977 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award

Re: I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it.

darkostoj wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/zCuUQiF.jpg

Even the photos are art.