Topic: Need Buick V6 Help

I got a 1977 Buick Skylark with a 231 2-barrel on it. It has not run in a long time, like decades. I have to push the choke closed manually, but if I do that, then it starts right up. It idles fine, sounds really good, occasionally pops.

If I give it some throttle, even after it's warmed up, then it dies. I can see the streams from the accelerator pump shooting into it when I give it gas, so I think the carburetor is okay. I already bypassed the stock tank/filter and just put a small outboard gas tank on it, so it should be getting good gas. If I put it in gear, then it also dies. Sometimes if I goose it just right, then it will rev up, and then if I time my gear engagement just right, then it will peel out and I can drive it around the neighborhood at idle. This makes me inordinately happy. It will sit there and idle happily all day.

I was thinking it might be the distributor, but when I went to look it up, in 1977 some engines were odd fire and some were even fire. How can I tell which is correct for this engine without pulling the crankshaft?

Also, does it sound like I am generally on the right track with this? I'm happy to chuck parts at it; they are cheap. I can buy a whole new distributor and a new carburetor for half of what I'd pay for a Honda distributor. I guess I can just buy one of each distributor and see if either of them fixes it, but that seems gratuitous.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Also, it sat outside for a while (years?) with no hood on it. Someone put a plastic bag over the carburetor, so even though it had no air cleaner, it didn't get full of water, but I'm wondering if water could have gotten into where the coil is on top of the distributor cap and corroded some stuff.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Vacuum leak? Maybe from the advance hose?

That guy

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

I'll check vacuum tomorrow.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

If it has strong spark its a crappy Carb/fuel supply.

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Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Pull the Distributor cap and check the advance weights, the are probably frozen.(thus the lack of acceleration)
You can usually free them up with some penetrating oil and a little elbow grease.

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Just because the accel pump works doesn't mean the carb is ok.  Might be worth rebuilding it.  Rebuild kits are cheap and relatively easy.

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Clearly the answer is a turbocharger.  I mean this is basically a Grand National.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

9 (edited by rmcdaniels 2018-07-18 03:16 PM)

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Woo Hoo!

Vacuum is good. The centrifugal advance mechanism moved freely by hand, but was very rusty. I hosed it all down with WD-40 and moved it around with my fingers, which seems to have helped, because I can put it into gear without it dying. I also haven't checked base timing, so that could be off as well. Everything in the distributor is very rusty and corroded. I'd replace it, but I still don't know how to figure out if this is odd-fire or even-fire.

So now it starts up and goes into gear. It still dies if you give it gas, but if I constantly pump the pedal, then it will run like a normal car, so I'm thinking that the carb is not giving it enough fuel and it needs the constant enrichment from the accelerator pump to keep running. I guess that could be the fuel pump as well. I drove it around for a while like that today. It is drivable, albeit annoying. I have ordered a new fuel pump.

It runs hot, between 210 and 220. I'm thinking that maybe that's because the fan on the water pump is missing, the shroud is gone, and there is a strange little fan that turns slowly zip-tied to the lower part of the radiator. I have no idea why. I will fix that later.

Now I'm off to Germany for a couple of weeks, so I'll mess with this glorious domination machine some more when I get back.

Thanks for all the help.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

10 (edited by Guildenstern 2018-07-18 03:52 PM)

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Edit: Nope that was useless like most things on the internet that require knowledge before 1980.

Best I can find is if the distributor cap looks like a V8 cap with two plugs missing it's odd fire.
If It looks like a normal V6 cap it's even fire.

The only other ways are casting numbers and looking at the crank for the even fires offset shared journals.

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Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Yeah, from what I've read some older engines have the V8 caps with two holes capped, and later ones just have normal-looking HEI caps with the holes offset a little. The holes on mine don't look even and it looks like the HEI cap (not a big GM expert), but I still don't know if it has the right distributor for the engine. I also don't feel like dropping the pan to look at the crank.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Also, if anyone has any advice for making this thing hold together; I'll be racing it at CMP in September and have never raced a GM product before.

I figured I'd put an oil cooler on it, gauges for water temp, oil temp, and oil pressure, and tell the guys to baby it.

The trans is a THM-350, and it feels pretty good, although it really likes to upshift. I'll put a new vacuum regulator on it and see if that helps, and add a big trans cooler. It has some output shaft play, although feels fine while driving, so I may put a new output shaft bushing and seal in it; that looks easy enough.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

13 (edited by chaase 2018-07-19 06:15 AM)

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

rmcdaniels wrote:

Also, if anyone has any advice for making this thing hold together; I'll be racing it at CMP in September and have never raced a GM product before.

I figured I'd put an oil cooler on it, gauges for water temp, oil temp, and oil pressure, and tell the guys to baby it.

The trans is a THM-350, and it feels pretty good, although it really likes to upshift. I'll put a new vacuum regulator on it and see if that helps, and add a big trans cooler. It has some output shaft play, although feels fine while driving, so I may put a new output shaft bushing and seal in it; that looks easy enough.

There is a spring that is used to modulate the speed of the clutch engagement. If you can get a stronger spring, or replace it with a piece of metal tubing. The shifts will firm up significantly and reduce slippage.

Get a high pressure radiator cap to help prevent boil overs.

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Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Starter, alternator and all of their associated wiring are always on problem on the FWD 3800's but though related in architecture, they seem to be very different engines.

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Sounds like your problem is the choke. Personally I would do a 4 barrel intake and put a gently used Edelbrock or Carter on it.

Racing cars is for rookies. Racing crapcans takes balls.

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

chaase wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

h.


Get a high pressure radiator cap to help prevent boil overs.

That's the best advice I've ever read on how to get a 40 year old engine to pop freeze plugs.

If that engine runs more than 180 degrees, there's something wrong.  The fan setup won't help anything over 30 mph.  Ditch the stock mechanical fan and rig up a decent-sized e-fan from something modern and Japanese and don't worry about it.

If the engine's running hot, one of the following is wrong:

- Running too lean, due to carburetor crapitude and/or vacuum leaks

- Distributor timing too retarded

- Head gasket leak

- Exhaust restricted

- Massive blockage in the cooling loop

Assuming it's not gulping coolant and there's no bubbles in the radiator while running, you can rule out a HG leak.  I'd yank the radiator and install a nice beefy aluminum racing one from Summit.  They're cheap and they've done a good job cooling our 460.  Add shrouding around the front to direct air into it at speed.  Backflush the cooling system before installing the new radiator.  Run a thermostat-delete restrictor plate.

Advance the base timing as much as possible before you get pinging under moderate loads and speeds.  A higher octane fuel and/or octane boost may let you run a bit more timing.  The engine will like this.

Dual 2" exhaust with race mufflers, get rid of the stock system- especially if it has a cat.  1970's catalytic converters were terrible like disco.

Replace every vacuum line on the car, remove anything superfluous (like vacuum controls to the HVAC system)

And overhaul the carburetor.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

17 (edited by mechimike 2018-07-20 03:31 AM)

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Oh, and take it from a bunch of guys who have run two cars that both sat for awhile before racing: either get a fuel cell, or get a new stock fuel tank.  Replace ALL the fuel lines.

EDIT; and change the oil, pronto.  My experience is that plastic bags are about as good at keeping water out of an engine as leaving the hood open and parking under a bridge during a hurricane.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Just thinking about this...my first car was a '77 Suburban with the TH350.  IIRC it had a vacuum modulator and a mechanical kickdown.  If they're broken or missing then it will probably default to upshifting early.  Again, back to the vacuum issues, replace all the lines.  The modulator should be cheap, too. 

The kickdown linkage I think was pretty straightforward- basically make sure it's pressed all the way back when the gas is floored.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Unrelated to anything: if anyone needs proof that GM truly was phoning it in during the malaise era, one need not look any further than the odd-fire 231.  How ducking lazy could they get, that they couldn't even be bothered to design an engine with a decent ignition system?

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

rlchv70 wrote:

Just because the accel pump works doesn't mean the carb is ok.  Might be worth rebuilding it.  Rebuild kits are cheap and relatively easy.

^ This. If you have to pump the pedal to keep it going, it's not getting enough fuel through the regular circuits. Almost certainly due to a clog somewhere from sitting for so long.

I got lucky with a Holley 1920 one-barrel that had only been sitting a couple years and managed to blow out the crap in the idle circuits with carb cleaner. Sounds like your issues might be related to the main circuit, though. No idea what model of carb it is, but maybe you can open up the bowl and go prospecting for garbage. If you do have to rebuild it, get the big can of carb cleaner so you can soak the whole disassembled body in it. Also make sure to check for excessive throttle shaft play before you waste the time and effort rebuilding it.

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Thanks a lot for all of the advice.

The carb is a Rochester 2GE. I'll either rebuild or replace it. I think I saw one on eBay for $90.

The mechanical radiator fan is missing. I can see where it should be bolted to the water pump, but there's nothing there. It just has a strange-looking and very small electric fan that spins very slowly when the car is turned on. It looks like I could stop it by sticking my finger in it without taking any damage. I've got some modern electric fans from another project that I can put on it. I'll also get a big-ass aluminum radiator before we go racing.

I didn't see a kickdown linkage, just the vacuum regulator, maybe that's a problem.

I was going to put a fuel cell in the trunk. Upon closer inspection, the car has no fuel tank. there was some other stuff missing too, it was used as a parts car for a while. Currently it's got the little 3-gallon marine tank from my Trabant sitting on the passenger-side floor.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

Some quick googling shows this car may have had either the THM 350 -or- the THM 200 transmission.  Probably better verify which before continuing.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

I'll look at it when I get back. At least I can tell the difference between those. The 200 appears to be pretty fragile. I'm thinking that I should get a big trans cooler, deep-dish aluminum trans pan, and a temp gauge for it. Apparently if you keep them under 200, then they can hold up pretty well.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

24 (edited by mechimike 2018-07-24 05:48 AM)

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

If it is a THM 200, my Buick guy (who owns a 10 second GN) says you can direct- swap in a THM 350, easy.  You should be able to find a THM 350 about as easy as turning over a rock.

Or, better yet, run the 200 till it blows, and have a 350 with you to swap in.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Need Buick V6 Help

mechimike wrote:

You should be able to find a THM 350 about as easy as turning over a rock.

A chevy one, yes. BOP ones are a little harder to find.