126 (edited by chaase 2019-03-11 01:31 PM)

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

nimblemotorsports wrote:

It is essentially impossible to win without cheating, and no EV company wants to be associated with cheating, and the $50k prize is insignificant to a real business/corporation.

If you look at the Automotive X-prize, it was $1 million dollars and no automotive company bothered,
just a bunch of independents, and the major winner got $2 million?  and spent $5 million,
or something like that I can't remember exactly.  And unfortunately, it changed nothing in the industry.

Nimble Motorsports will cheat all day for $50k   lol 

Now if there is real interest in actual EV racing, you would make them short races,
is there real interest in that?  Or just the $50k?

I remember in drag racing there was a lot of $100k winner races, where lots of cheating going on,
and it got old very fast.

btw, great video, wtf was that?

Formula E is short races. I was reading an article and they can only do about 17 laps max at the speeds they run and that's with some serious tech. I don't see a decent sized company getting involved unless they were just trying to do some team building or some engineering exercises.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

TheEngineer wrote:

[snip] Why? The hot pits are for refueling. swapping batteries would be refueling.

I respectfully disagree, in two respects:

a. "Fuel" for the gasoline and diesel engine vehicles refers to the respective liquids, which are combustible, that contain energy, and that go into containers permanently installed in the vehicles. The 'fueling' rules relate to "fueling" those vehicles.
b. "fuel" for batteries would have to relate to "re-energizing" the material contained in the batteries, not replacing the containers themselves. Otherwise, a case could be made that a 'plug-in' "fuel" tank [like connecting an air wrench] would be the same as replacing the batteries.

I contend that because the physical layout of _any_ racetrack has been designed for ICE's [I've only been to NJMP - please correct me if I'm wrong], there's an inherent bias _against_ full-electric vehicles.

Attempting to equate 'refueling' with 'recharging' is logically flawed.

What if there was a racetrack designed only for electric vehicles. What would that track look like? What would the rules include with regard to charging batteries? What would a charging infrastructure look like? Couldn't it be integrated into the track itself?

Would there _be_ any gasoline or diesel oil infrastructure?

One benefit of a closed course is the cars pass by the same spot many times during a race - roughly the same path, more or less.

Is there any way to transmit electrical energy, focused, in a relatively restricted area, without a cable physically attached to an electric device? Of course there is! Could it be done continuously?

One important question is: can it be done without killing, or blinding, or causing any other medical issues in anybody, and without disrupting the rest of the vehicles?

There's an opportunity here, for someone to design that system, and build that track. Where the full-EVs absorb energy each time they hit the long straight [for example], and only have to store enough energy to get around the track and back to the long straight.

Then, the _real_ challenge would be for the liquid-fuel powered car to win "outright". I wonder if anybody would try...

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

You would have to designate an EV hot pit spot near the end of the wall for battery swaps, preferably away from the other cars. I can't imagine rolling a cart halfway down the hot pit lane with a thousand pounds of batteries while other teams are trying to get in and out.

Also, all racing is cheating. Winners just cheat better than losers.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Maybe we're doing this all wrong. Instead of batteries/motors, just go to the Flemish Railway Museum in Antwerp (I'll be out that way next month if anyone wants to work with me on this) and grab the drive system out of the last remaining Swedish Gyrobus. A 5' steel wheel that weighs 3000 pounds and spins at 3000 RPM. Bolt the assembly into the back of something nice and light, like a 1st-gen VW Rabbit, and then just run 3-phase 440V cables to the hot pit to spool it back up when the Rabbit slows down. Maybe spin that baby up to 6000 RPM for a little extra oomph.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Is there any way to transmit electrical energy, focused, in a relatively restricted area, without a cable physically attached to an electric device? Of course there is! Could it be done continuously?

Yes.

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

One important question is: can it be done without killing, or blinding, or causing any other medical issues in anybody, and without disrupting the rest of the vehicles?

No.  It wouldn't be all that different than removing the door from an industrial sized microwave, defeating the safety switch and running it with your head in front of it.  Have you ever seen those microwave towers with the dishes on them that are covered by fabric?  That fabric is so that birds dont get vaporized if they fly in there.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

rmcdaniels wrote:

Maybe we're doing this all wrong. Instead of batteries/motors, just go to the Flemish Railway Museum in Antwerp (I'll be out that way next month if anyone wants to work with me on this) and grab the drive system out of the last remaining Swedish Gyrobus. A 5' steel wheel that weighs 3000 pounds and spins at 3000 RPM. Bolt the assembly into the back of something nice and light, like a 1st-gen VW Rabbit, and then just run 3-phase 440V cables to the hot pit to spool it back up when the Rabbit slows down. Maybe spin that baby up to 6000 RPM for a little extra oomph.

Would a fuel cell setup count as all electric? A gasoline fuel cell making electricity keeping a set of batteries charged to feed the engine?

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

132

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

chaase wrote:

Would a fuel cell setup count as all electric? A gasoline fuel cell making electricity keeping a set of batteries charged to feed the engine?

There are no gasoline fuel cells.  The ones that are around use a synthetic gasoline not pump gas. 

More interesting, would be a hydrogen fuel cell car (aka the Toyota Mirai).  They use H2 to directly create electric to power motors (with a battery buffering) so they are considered EVs.  I can't find the stats on the fuel cell to electric but weight and range is still an issue not to mention the ~10 minute fuel stops (required as you pressurize the tanks in the car you can't just dump pressure, you need to fill slowly to keep the heat inside the tanks down).  The energy density is lower, about 1/3 that of gas.  So if you had a 20 gallon tank of gasoline, you would need a 60 gallon tank of H2 at 10,000PSI which would be a hard sell at tech.  But interestingly, the actual fuel contained therein would weigh about the same. 

But even with exotic electric sources, we would still be left with the problems of overheating the motors on the delivery side.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

rmcdaniels wrote:

You would have to designate an EV hot pit spot near the end of the wall for battery swaps, preferably away from the other cars. I can't imagine rolling a cart halfway down the hot pit lane with a thousand pounds of batteries while other teams are trying to get in and out.

Also, all racing is cheating. Winners just cheat better than losers.

Separate charging / swapping area. Motorized gantry crane, like those that load the PODS(R) containers [those are totally cool to watch].

Also, cheaters don't 'win', they just 'get over on' other people; and, though they may be designated 'first place', they're not 'winners'. It's a philosophically disappointing commentary on ethics, but here we are...

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

rmcdaniels wrote:

[snip]... Swedish Gyrobus. A 5' steel wheel that weighs 3000 pounds and spins at 3000 RPM [snip].

Perfect!

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Maybe 'full EV' means that even the power source for the vehicles can only supply power directly from a non-fossil electric source, like solar panels.

Without a definition of "full-EV", I'm going to consider this just an interesting thought experiment, designed to see what this immensely creative community can come up with.

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

[snip] Why? The hot pits are for refueling. swapping batteries would be refueling.

(more snipping)
I respectfully disagree, in two respects:

a. "Fuel" for the gasoline and diesel engine vehicles refers to the respective liquids, which are combustible, that contain energy, and that go into containers permanently installed in the vehicles. The 'fueling' rules relate to "fueling" those vehicles.
b. "fuel" for batteries would have to relate to "re-energizing" the material contained in the batteries, not replacing the containers themselves. Otherwise, a case could be made that a 'plug-in' "fuel" tank [like connecting an air wrench] would be the same as replacing the batteries.

I think this is just getting hung up on schematics. Swapping a battery pack is roughly equivalent to refilling a gas tank. I agree recharging batteries is best done away from the hot pits, but swapping them in and out of a car is the EV equivalent to dumping gasoline into your car.

Saying that allowing battery swaps will lead to hot swapable fuel tanks is just plain silly.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

RobL wrote:
chaase wrote:

Would a fuel cell setup count as all electric? A gasoline fuel cell making electricity keeping a set of batteries charged to feed the engine?

There are no gasoline fuel cells.  The ones that are around use a synthetic gasoline not pump gas.

I thought they were further along in the process and it would've worked will for fueling. In reality, if you are doing a fuel cell you would be better off with LPG than Hydrogen since the energy density (per liter) is better than hydrogen. Hydrogen is lighter but too much space is required or insane pressures.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

chaase wrote:
RobL wrote:
chaase wrote:

Would a fuel cell setup count as all electric? A gasoline fuel cell making electricity keeping a set of batteries charged to feed the engine?

There are no gasoline fuel cells.  The ones that are around use a synthetic gasoline not pump gas.

I thought they were further along in the process and it would've worked will for fueling. In reality, if you are doing a fuel cell you would be better off with LPG than Hydrogen since the energy density (per liter) is better than hydrogen. Hydrogen is lighter but too much space is required or insane pressures.

Both not allowed in Lemons.

139

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

chaase wrote:
RobL wrote:
chaase wrote:

Would a fuel cell setup count as all electric? A gasoline fuel cell making electricity keeping a set of batteries charged to feed the engine?

There are no gasoline fuel cells.  The ones that are around use a synthetic gasoline not pump gas.

I thought they were further along in the process and it would've worked will for fueling. In reality, if you are doing a fuel cell you would be better off with LPG than Hydrogen since the energy density (per liter) is better than hydrogen. Hydrogen is lighter but too much space is required or insane pressures.

The stumbling block is (and always will be) the contaminates in pump fuel clogging and ruining the catalyst in the fuel cell.  Anything from particulates, to sulfur, to even carbonyl groups (a carbon atom double bonded to an oxygen atom).  They can make a fuel cell run on synthetic, manufactured homogeneous gasoline, but not on dino gas since it's structure is not consistent enough.  It's akin to running leaded gas through a catalytic converter or O2 sensor.  It might work for a little bit, but it will clog and ruin everything.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

TheEngineer wrote:
Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

[snip] Why? The hot pits are for refueling. swapping batteries would be refueling.

(more snipping)
I respectfully disagree, in two respects:

a. "Fuel" for the gasoline and diesel engine vehicles refers to the respective liquids, which are combustible, that contain energy, and that go into containers permanently installed in the vehicles. The 'fueling' rules relate to "fueling" those vehicles.
b. "fuel" for batteries would have to relate to "re-energizing" the material contained in the batteries, not replacing the containers themselves. Otherwise, a case could be made that a 'plug-in' "fuel" tank [like connecting an air wrench] would be the same as replacing the batteries.

I think this is just getting hung up on schematics. Swapping a battery pack is roughly equivalent to refilling a gas tank. I agree recharging batteries is best done away from the hot pits, but swapping them in and out of a car is the EV equivalent to dumping gasoline into your car.

Saying that allowing battery swaps will lead to hot swapable fuel tanks is just plain silly.

Schematics, semantics. Again, I respectfully disagree about the battery swaps:

When I drive to NYC and I need to refuel, I have some professional in NJ put fuel in my empty tank. And I can have that done, because there's nothing in the tank except the air which has taken the place of the energy-containing substance which used to occupy that volume. Which has been removed to power the engine through the course of the race.

If I had an electric vehicle, I wouldn't be swapping battery packs, I'd be recharging, connected via a cable.

The argument that swapping battery packs is roughly equivalent to refueling Is flawed. Be honest: it's a workaround to the time limitations of charging vis-a-vie dumping fuel.

And, I don't believe the argument about hot-swappable fuel tanks is silly per se, but that _is_ my point: reducto ad absurdem.

[I don't know what connection method they use, but some military jets use external fuel tanks, which they can disconnect and drop in-flight, right? NOT RECOMMENDING THIS - just sayin']

Again, I think this rule change is just a thought experiment, though, an interesting one.

What _would_ be appropriate rules regarding full-EV vehicles [considering current technology and its limitations? What sort of infrastructure? A standardized battery pack and handling equipment? A separate area?

Could it be that full-EVs just have a transponder which has to be carried around the track, driver-to-driver, vehicle-to-vehicle? That seems simplest to me. Like EZ-pass, just really, really fast!

And when the rules diverge enough, would it really be 'winning a race outright',  or would it be more like an area code overlay? That is, not a different class of the same 'thing', but a different 'thing' racing on the same track at the same time.

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment … -in-sweden

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

The chemistry dictates battery swaps. You have a low-density energy store that takes a long time to refill.

By the same token, the logistics rule out fuel tank swaps; I can dump 150kwh of energy in seconds.

Given that only two teams have ever done this, and based on our experience with it, some of the rules will be worked out along the way as we find all of the many ways to fail at this endeavor.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

I know nothing about EVs. What is the danger of a large spark from a high voltage battery pack swap igniting any of the previously spilled fuel that inevitably happens constantly in the hot pits?

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144

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Is there any way to transmit electrical energy, focused, in a relatively restricted area, without a cable physically attached to an electric device? Of course there is! Could it be done continuously?

Mr. Tesla (Nikola, that is) tried but did not succeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardenclyffe_Tower

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

145 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2019-03-12 10:24 AM)

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

There you go! [ above link edited to easily read the title ] A separate, parallel lane for EVs to recharge on the long straight, and we're off to the races - so to speak...

146

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

There you go! [ above link edited to easily read the title ] A separate, parallel lane for EVs to recharge on the long straight, and we're off to the races - so to speak...


Or just go overhead.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_ca … ooter1.jpg

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

147 (edited by RobL 2019-03-12 10:31 AM)

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

aventari wrote:

I know nothing about EVs. What is the danger of a large spark from a high voltage battery pack swap igniting any of the previously spilled fuel that inevitably happens constantly in the hot pits?

Effectively none as there shouldn't be current moving through the car when it's batteries are being swapped.  It's one of the reasons that kill switches are to be off when refueling.  The kill switch for an EV would be huge (480V and 100s of amps). 

You should have the additional restriction that the cart, sled, and contacts be made of non-ferric materials so they couldn't spark as the batteries were swapped.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

This is kinda devolving into semantics. Don't overthink it; it's like how they enforce what is or isn't a 5 gallon fuel jug.

If it can drive around the track under its own power without any kind of exhaust system, since there isn't any combustibles being burned, it's a full EV. My car is not an EV, a Prius isn't an EV, the Jet Electrica was an EV but now that it has a gen set it is NOT. I don't think transmitting power by microwave is something you'll get Ok'd.

There are a lot of arguments over the years about the "spirit" of Lemons. I'd say that when it turns into a big money pissing match about what form of batteries can be swapped in the hot pit, the spirit isn't there.

It can be just as Lemony running electric power as with gas, but way too much thought is being put into this. It's like plotting how to go retrieve the Lunar Lander which has been parked up there since the early 70s. The most expensive car ever is yours for free, you just need to go up to the Moon and pick it up. And frankly, if you have the ability to win the overall race on laps with a completely electric car, you can probably go get the Lander and bring it as a Judgemobile.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

Oh yeah, and the AC motor and controller play hell with the timing loop at CMP. They were not super-pleased about that.

Wow Specialty Timing wasn't pleased with something......

Indeed. Roland was very clear with us: if the transponder isn't reading, nobody in the tower is going to manually count laps, and they're not going to bother telling us about it. :-)

(And it's the magnetic field from the system interfering with our transponder, not the loop itself. Cars passing right next to us are read just fine. The AMB transponders aren't RF.)

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

So is the solution putting the transponder as far away from the electronics as possible? Or sticking it in a Mu metal cone pointed at the track?

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