1 (edited by rozap_ 2019-05-22 08:55 AM)

Topic: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

if it was a real car this block would be a boat anchor, but it's Lemons.

would you put new rings in this and run it? or not waste your time and try something else? the pitting looks bad and you can feel it, but it's not deep.

this is a fiat 1500cc that had a blown head gasket and sat for a few years. I'm thinking the lower compression and blowby means a smaller chance of head gasket failure, so this is actually a feature. can't blow an engine up if there's 0 compression, am I right?

https://i.imgur.com/KM93yq2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZiMTzib.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/74Xh6KR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1oIbfkb.jpg

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

I'd hone it to knock down any high spots and drop a set of rings in it.

That guy

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

ah yea, forgot to mention this is after running a dingle ball hone through it for a while

thanks - that is what I wanted to hear.

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

I use a straight hone rather than a dingle ball.

Other than that, here for you! :-)

That guy

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

This is Lemons, so the cost of a set of gaskets might be too much.  I'm guessing you can't find these motors at the junkyard?  This weekend is 50% off, so long block for $75.   smile

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

I'm all about going cheap and being hoopty, but that's too bad. You really need to hone it out with a hone that doesn't rely on spring tension.

Like this one
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cylinder-Engin … GZEjq0INgQ

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/jEsAAOSwkaVcx9cs/s-l1600.jpg

Lisle makes a nice one like the pictured one above. More $ though.


When you get tons of blowby, you can't control how much fuel is staying in any cylinders and your carb setting will be a huge guess and when it ignites, you may run lean / hot in a cylinder and burn up head gaskets.

You also will stress out your oil seals like main and crankshaft pulley seal causing them to push out oil from the pressurized crankcase.

As someone who had massive blowby many years ago that was so bad that the fire truck was following me around the track after the checkered flag flew to make sure I didn't burn down their nice facility, you don't want to START your weekend with it that bad.

https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/IOE_Lede_Lemon.jpg

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

Admittedly, I don't remember the Borgward being that bad... And it was locked solid.

Actually, is that a sleeve I see? You should be able to get sleeves for not much more than rings... If it's a sleeve motor, you should do that too.

That guy

8 (edited by rozap_ 2019-05-21 11:41 PM)

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

not sleeved unfortunately, just a shiny bit from the dingle balls.

our plan B is a stupid and ill advised swap, which we don't really want to do.

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

In that case, you can also get it bored for sleeves...

That guy

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

I'm guessing oversized pistons are either unobtainium or too expensive?

Command Pilot/Flight Director, Escape Velocity Racing
Index of Effluency, Heroic Fix, Class C Trophy, now hopelessly gunning for Class B.
Currently 1-2 vs. Team Fairlylame in the Class of 1964 Championships

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

I'd guess oversize pistons risk further block problems.

That guy

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

junk

13

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

SpaceFrank wrote:

I'm guessing oversized pistons are either unobtainium or too expensive?

+1 to this question.  What's your stock bore measurement?

NJMP '11--#132 (Speedycop), NJMP '12 to '16--#215 (Philthy Motorsports), NJMP '16--#75 Most Heroic Fix, NJMP '17--#75 (still drying out), NJMP '18--#75, NHMS '18 - #75 Datsun 510

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

Top fuel dragsters would love to see a bore that good....
It will burn a smidgen of oil as long as you retain all of the pressure releasing systems for the crankcase.
A bore and oversize pistons is the right way but it can work (Because Lemons....)
We spend a lot of time at full throttle and most teams don't run a crank breather to the throttle opening, this is way more likely to burn oil than a pitted bore. The piston is not over the pitting for very long. as long as you piston to wall clearance is reasonable you will be fine.
good luck
Manny

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

Story, beenthere, done that.

Was given a free 5.0 chevy that was good when the owner sold the hood 2 years prior, occasionally someone felt bad and a bottle of whatever (I recall p/s fluid) was poured down the water full carb.

In a pinch, the engine was needed to finish the points season @ the local dirt track. After a couple hours of freeing it up, it was found to be a sludge monster, valve covers, intake and oil pan removed for pressure washing... It was then installed and ran for 10 weekends before the plastic timing gear stripped, clogging the oil pump, locking up after the driver ignored gauges, main bearings melted...

Autopsy reveled huge pits very similar, but considerably worse, then the photos above , it ran fine when warm, missed a little cold, didnt smoke and there was evidence it was trying to heal itself by filling the pits with carbon.

It was speculated the reason such a thing worked is the damage was radial not top to bottom.

Go for it!

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

jbl wrote:
SpaceFrank wrote:

I'm guessing oversized pistons are either unobtainium or too expensive?

+1 to this question.  What's your stock bore measurement?

If this is possible, that is the best answer. If not, I would just throw rings in it and see how it goes. If that doesn't work, go for the ill-advised engine swap.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleship
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

I've done worse!

2018 Where the Elite Meet to Cheat - Organizer's Choice Award
2019 Rust Belt GP - Spirit of Entropy Award
2019 The Tony Swan Never-Say-Die Memorial - Index of Effluency Award
2020 The Tony Swan Never-Say-Die Memorial - Class C Lap Winner

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

Bore is 86.4mm. the shop manual says not to bore over .6mm, and new pistons are very expensive.

Thanks for the input everyone, very helpful.

19 (edited by fleming95 2019-05-22 10:39 AM)

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

86.4mm = Slant-Six bore diameter...

<edit>

... and 86.5 = Mitsuibishi 4G64 bore diameter, with a wrist pin diameter and compression height closer to what you're looking for.

Time to go buy a ran-when-parked 'Hyundia Sonota' for parts -

(here's my reference: https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media … -20-09.pdf)

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

First off I'd try to hone it and run it.  This sounds like the 1.5 SOHC engine from the later X1/9/Bravo and not the 60's OHV 1500.  Either way, it's not going to be easily replaced at the local junkyard and more common Fiat engines like the 124/131 ones don't easily fit.  If this fails you are either looking at a difficult engine swap or try to stay within the family.  I think the Lancia drivetrain would be the one I'd look at because that drivetrain isn't all that bad (comparatively).  There is the unguided missile X1/9 in Lemons that has a Alfa 164 drivetrain in it but it kinda seems like it took them a long time to get it to point in the preferred direction most of the time.  No matter what you do present pictures of what you are doing to the judges.  They will be so happy at seeing this that they may hump your leg.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

Mkotzias wrote:

Top fuel dragsters would love to see a bore that good....
Manny

Off topic, kinda, but I'd like to see a comparison for the # of engine revolutions the average top fuel dragster makes from startup to burnout to engine cutoff for a weekend vs # of engine revolutions for the average Lemons car for a weekend that starts and finishes a race.

I think one time I calculated an average vintage race weekend vs a Lemons weekend and essentially 1 Lemons weekend is a typical season's worth of track time in one of the local vintage racing leagues.

22 (edited by chaase 2019-05-22 12:55 PM)

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

Spank wrote:
Mkotzias wrote:

Top fuel dragsters would love to see a bore that good....
Manny

Off topic, kinda, but I'd like to see a comparison for the # of engine revolutions the average top fuel dragster makes from startup to burnout to engine cutoff for a weekend vs # of engine revolutions for the average Lemons car for a weekend that starts and finishes a race.

I think one time I calculated an average vintage race weekend vs a Lemons weekend and essentially 1 Lemons weekend is a typical season's worth of track time in one of the local vintage racing leagues.

Fun Facts
https://www.automobilemag.com/news/top-fuel-dragsters/

"With a redline that can be as high as 9500 rpm, Top Fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light. Including the burnout, the engine needs to survive only 900 revolutions under load. "

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleship
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

Those top fuel engines are their own weird animal.  There are just buckets of  fuel constantly dumping into each cylinder and I'm amazed that it doesn't just extinguish the spark.  They must employ a city block's worth of electricity just to light that off.  TRD engineer buddy says their engine management can control the chaos that goes on in those things which amazes me.  Dunno if it's still this way but the valve guides were so loose in them that they'd straighten out valves with a dead blow.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

cheseroo wrote:

Those top fuel engines are their own weird animal.  There are just buckets of  fuel constantly dumping into each cylinder and I'm amazed that it doesn't just extinguish the spark.  They must employ a city block's worth of electricity just to light that off.  TRD engineer buddy says their engine management can control the chaos that goes on in those things which amazes me.  Dunno if it's still this way but the valve guides were so loose in them that they'd straighten out valves with a dead blow.

Read the info in the link....

*) Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.
*) Spark plug electrodes can be totally consumed during a single pass. After half-distance, the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1400 degrees Fahrenheit. The engine is shut down by cutting the fuel flow.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleship
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: poll: Should we put new rings in this and run it

What would be an I'll advised engine swap for a Fiat anyway?

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z