1 (edited by Crawford 2019-05-31 12:40 PM)

Topic: Noob Team questions

Hi everyone,

A few guys from work and me have been talking about putting together a Lemons team for a while and we're finally getting around to it but want to make sure we don't screw ourselves on the B.S. inspection. 

cue the backstory
last year I got in a wreck in my daily and I only have liability insurance so I had to fix the car myself. I needed a whole front clip and the only way to make it not cost more than the car was worth was to buy a parts car. Well I found a super nice car at Co-part that had been rear-ended and got the car for $810 out the door(those fees blow). The car ran and drove, mostly just body and a little frame damage but the alignment was even good and it was in town so I could grab it on my lunch break. I pulled everything off the parts car that I wanted and parked it in the barn until I would hopefully sell the drive train and crush the shell but as of this point I haven't done anything other than the occasional pasture donut in it.


My questions are as follows,
1. How do I determine the price of a clean used hood, core support, front bumper, mishimoto radiator, and a few other goodies that were removed from the car for my daily? Is a screenshot from ebay acceptable or do I have to sell them to myself and make reciepts?
2. How do I determine the value of the wrecked pieces of my car that will be used to make the parts car "whole" again
3. If I took the mishimoto radiator ($330 new) off the parts car and put it on my daily can I buy an eBay special($100) radiator for the race car and count that as selling the radiator off it to fund the newer shittier one or do I have to call that part of my $500 budget?


Thanks in advance,
Cabana Boy Racing

Re: Noob Team questions

It helps to know the car.  Older more obscure cars then to have BS look the other way vs. sportier cars. 

If you have a sportier car, then parts are worth fair market value.  If I can buy a hood for $100, then that hood is worth $100.  If all the parts on the car are on the crappier side, the judges aren't going to look too hard.  If you have a bunch of shiny go fast parts, then you should have a good story with receipts about all the other parts you sold to get those in your budget.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Noob Team questions

I suspect that you didn't list the year/model of this car on purpose.  So before we get into the finances  you should be aware of some things.  If the car is somewhat new and was reasonably fast when it was new, you won't get much slack from the judges even if you provide audited financial statements from Price Waterhouse Coopers showing that it's a sub-$500 car..  The judging is subjective for the very reason of making sure people don't violate the spirit of what the series is about.  Having said that, if you show up with your M3/WRX/FR-S/whatever you'll just get a ton of penalty laps and you best just go out and have fun like the rest of us.  If you do get penalty laps, just suck it up and move on.  If you are talking about a Datsun B210, then forget about paperwork because they won't care and it won't matter.

1.  Technically you are supposed to include the cost of the parts car in what you are doing but if it's me, I'd just use eBay ads to establish comparable value.  Just be aware that you can't bring the value of your car into negative numbers and then spend all that free budget on coilovers/whatever.
2.  Not clear to me what you are trying to get to here.  Which car are you racing, the daily or the insurance car?  You mention a front clip so it seems one of the cars is a bit shorter than the other.   Are you putting the bent clip on the insurance car and then racing that?  If so, you'd need to send an email to the judges and explain everything including the year/make of the car.  Again if it's a 1969 Thunderbird, don't bother just build it.
3.  The judges aren't going to accept that you sold a used part for full retail value ($330) and then replaced it with a $100 one to free up $230 in budget.  Unless it's a 1970 Corolla then they won't care.

It seems to me that this should be treated as you buying an $810 car and then selling off  stuff like the interior to offset that $810.  If you start going into a long story about your daily driver,  insurance auctions, switching parts from this to that and blash, blah, blah the judges are going to tune you out and apply justice as they see fit.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

4 (edited by Crawford 2019-05-31 02:29 PM)

Re: Noob Team questions

well, its a 98 Z3 so its not new or that fast...

Im bringing the parts car racing, a hood costs like 500 bucks, core support is 300, etc,etc, etc. the radiator seems like its gonna come out of my 500.

couple more questions

we're using a fairly small car and some of our drivers are pretty healthy (6'5, 300lbs) so egress is something we want to do well... we are thinking about cutting our doors down heightwise until they are even with the door bars for a bigger exit hole. also parallell door bars on the passenger and crossed on the driver side.  obviously we would have to roll the edge so there are no sharp anythings in the exit path... I've seen this done in pics but is it still allowed with current rules?

our car is a convertible so we are going to remove the top and build the cage to have sufficient headroom then planned on putting some metal on top to close it and call that a roof, this mitigates arm restraints right?

Re: Noob Team questions

FYI a Z3 that had a different body put on it won the overall race not too long ago.  So you can't really say that the car isn't fast around here.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

6 (edited by nimblemotorsports 2019-05-31 03:37 PM)

Re: Noob Team questions

Aha, a cheaty z3   It will likely get some laps, no worries, you are not going to win anyway, so who cares if you get 50 laps or 500 laps.  It should be a fun car to drive.  Don't put a stock front sheet metal on it, use something else that is cheap like a miata or a vw bug or ?  chance to be creative here,
and judges will smile.

A Crown Vic looks like a perfect fit.. https://fayar.craigslist.org/cto/d/beav … 76177.html one for $300 in tulsa..
https://images.craigslist.org/00U0U_5OgSL8mhuyK_600x450.jpg

or a volvo.  one for$300
https://images.craigslist.org/00707_64FahKsUfvN_600x450.jpg

Re: Noob Team questions

Crawford wrote:

...we are thinking about cutting our doors down heightwise until they are even with the door bars for a bigger exit hole... is it still allowed with current rules?

A bigger exit hole also means a bigger entrance hole for portions of other cars, which is something of significant concern to HQ these days. I'd say don't do this without getting explicit permission from HQ first. A reasonable interpretation of Rule 3.J.2 is that they want the entire door in place, not just a remnant of it.

Crawford wrote:

...we are going to remove the top and build the cage to have sufficient headroom then planned on putting some metal on top to close it and call that a roof, this mitigates arm restraints right?

Maybe. If the "some metal on top" is a drip pan held on by zip-ties, probably not. If it's a fairly serious roof, probably yes. It depends on the quality and extent of the results as filtered through the opinion of the tech inspector. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a set of restraints available, just in case you are required to use them.

I've never found the restraints to be troublesome, or even distracting, when I've driven an open car, nor do they add any significant time to a driver swap. The remaining issue, admittedly, is the added expense.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Noob Team questions

So I was right, there was a reason why the make/model was not disclosed in your original post.  Yes, you might consider your Z3 a pile but the judges won't. 

This Z3 got loads of penalty laps and as you can see, it's pretty rough

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Class-A-6.jpg

But don't despair, this is the very same Z3 with different bodywork hung off of it.

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/DSC_7649.jpg

It won overall not long ago with zero penalty laps and the judges love it.

As far as cutting the door down, some have done it but I haven't seen one cut all the way down to the door bars.  I suspect that won't pass tech.  You best send an email to either John or Jeff (emails are somewhere on the website) asking permission before you ask forgiveness and have to change it.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

9 (edited by Crawford 2019-05-31 04:34 PM)

Re: Noob Team questions

Looking back at my post I guess I left a bunch of stuff out. I plan to take the smashed nose from my daily and put it on the parts car then cage and race the parts car. I'm just trying to figure out where to start counting $$$ when going back onto the parts car. I took headlights, bumper cover, hood, core support, off the parts car and put them on my daily. Used on ebay those add up to more than I paid for the car so I figure it's a $0 car and I can add $500 back to it. The only thing shiny and new on the race car will be radiator, water pump, air filter, and safety eq. Everything else is gonna stay as-is and budget will be saved for "hey this broke"

For some reason I want the car to become a 68 f100

Re: Noob Team questions

I guess you need to understand that lots of people come into the series bringing a (comparatively) fast car (like a Z3) and hold up their $500 car paperwork like it's the Holy Grail thinking that's all they need to get zero laps.  I hate to be the one that bursts your bubble but it doesnt exactly work like that.  A Z3 is not the type of car the series organizers envisioned to compete in their series.  You likely will run into one gruff judge who will be fairly open about not liking BMWs and especially rookies in BMWs.  Judging for penalty laps is pretty subjective and you are thinking it will be objective.  It's not, especially when it comes to a car like yours.  So I guess you have some choices in how you approach this.  You can;
1.  Put all your documentation together in a binder to show the judges.  You can show pictures of money changing hands for the parts you sell or comparable (sold) Ebay ads for parts.  Be of the expectation that you will receive enough penalty laps to end any hope in finishing in the top 20.  Also accept in good grace any crap you get for bringing a Z3 and dont argue the laps you get.
2.  Convert your car into a convincing 68 F100 to where you cant tell that it's a Z3 underneath without being told.  I'm pretty sure most people cant tell that Javelin is a Z3.  If you pull off the F100, I'm almost positive that you will receive no penalty laps.  Putting F100 badges on the side of a Z3 alone ain't gonna do it.

Again, you need to seriously consider that no matter how good your paperwork is, a stock Z3 will get penalty laps.  That's wonderful that you have a $500 hood but what I'm saying is your reality.  Bring the thing, have fun but dont expect zero laps.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Noob Team questions

Crawford wrote:

For some reason I want the car to become a 68 f100


Yes. This.

Winning.

For motivation:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1873 … ord-f-150/

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/amv-prod-cad-assets/images/media/465224/lemons-good-bad-idea-of-the-week-backwards-body-flipped-ford-f-150-photo-465235-s-986x603.jpg?resize=980:*

12 (edited by Crawford 2019-05-31 06:53 PM)

Re: Noob Team questions

Now I have to figure out how to get a short wide body for $250 or how to stretch the z enough to put the tires in the wheel wells of a longbed

Re: Noob Team questions

If it's a good gimmick, the $500 doesn't matter.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Noob Team questions

You can always scale it down.  This is actually an E30

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads18/Thunderhill+BRW+small+1286136293.jpg

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Noob Team questions

Crawford wrote:

Now I have to figure out how to get a short wide body for $250 or how to stretch the z enough to put the tires in the wheel wells of a longbed

Theme is not specifically listed as exempt from budget...but in reality it really is.

Re: Noob Team questions

Themes are overrated. Get the car together, running/driving and safe. Then worry about a theme. you will most likely not finish the 1st event.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Noob Team questions

Mr.Yuck wrote:

Themes are overrated.

Booooooo
Hissssssssss

Re: Noob Team questions

If it's pretty stock/worn-out and you account for the parts bought and sold in a convincing manner, you might get zero penalty laps in the BS inspection. The sight of new parts, even if OEM-grade, will erode our confidence in the budget legitimacy of a Z3. Just keep in mind that there are no loopholes for cars like this, so don't create a corporation to sell yourself parts for 25 cents, stuff like this-- the judges have a great deal of subjective leeway in how they approach loophole-seeking moves by racers.

Even if you get buried in laps the first time, we'll see how the car does in the real world on the track. If it's not quick and/or reliable and you show up with the same drivers at a later race, the penalty-lap count will (likely) be a lot lower or even nonexistent. The first Z3 we had was a Copart car with a very well-documented budget, and the drivers are all ex-pros who know how to organize a team and run consistent quick laps without getting into trouble (sometimes). They would have been just as competitive with any number of quick cars, though.

Re: Noob Team questions

Banking on the mostly stock (except radiator) and wore out (nearly 200k on the clock) for our first race looks like the winner, hopefully Topeka 2020.

Re: Noob Team questions

Crawford wrote:

Banking on the mostly stock (except radiator) and wore out (nearly 200k on the clock) for our first race looks like the winner, hopefully Topeka 2020.

After Topeka 2019,they may not let Lemons back. So you may want to ramp up your build.

I'm going and I haven't even figured out which car I'm building for it let alone have I started building it.

Just do it.

Do it right, later.

21 (edited by nimblemotorsports 2019-06-01 11:53 PM)

Re: Noob Team questions

Sometimes you just have to do it. 

No worries if you get penalty laps, build what makes you happy,
get it safe and bring it and have fun. 

I hacked a Z28 front end on my mazda 3-days before the race, we worked on it friday at the track to get the fenders and bumper mounting completely.  Camaros are relatively easy to find.
Lemons quality here...
The Mazdamaro will look much better at the next race.

https://24hoursoflemons.smugmug.com/Rac … -2tVmNLG/A

btw, jay hates camaros, so everyone should make their car look like a camaro, a Z3 camaro is perfect. wink

22 (edited by Troy 2019-06-02 06:31 AM)

Re: Noob Team questions

Crawford wrote:

well, its a 98 Z3 so its not new or that fast...

Z3s can be HELLA FASSSTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They have E30 rear suspension but ran motors in line with the 3-series of their production years so they have a broad range of motors from 4 bangers to 3-liters then there are the M models. It's like a lightweight E30/36 hybrid.

Take your penalty laps and have a fun weekend.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Noob Team questions

Do the doors not open? I would get the door to open. That way, it's like you cut the door down to the door bar, but you still have a door.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: Noob Team questions

The Chevy Spectrum is pretty close in dimensions to a Z3 in terms of width and wheelbase. Not sure how you'd make it work, but that's not really my problem.

Better yet, let the world know how awesome your EUROpean sports car is.

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/chevrolet-celebrity-eurosport-vr-1988.jpg

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Noob Team questions

That's great. It's like a mini Monte Carlo.