1 (edited by nimblemotorsports 2019-07-21 09:49 AM)

Topic: radiator hose routing

I have a 944 radiator and fans that will fit great in my mx-3, it is smaller and thicker,
but the inlet and outlet are on the wrong side.
I know the hot comes in at the top, the cold sucked in from the bottom.

I could fabricate long hoses that cross over, so the top goes to the other side, the bottom too.
But why not just connect them 'backwards'?
The radiator is below the engine, does it really matter
which hose is 'upper' and 'lower' on a pressurized cross-flow?

Or even install the radiator literally backwards, so the connection face the front and make u-turns (using steel tubing)?  smile

Re: radiator hose routing

Pulling from the top means once your coolant level gets even a little low you’ll be sucking air not coolant. Once that happens things go downhill rapidly.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: radiator hose routing

yea, what he said. plus you'll be fighting gravity without the aid of the added weight of the remaining water in the radiator pushing down on it.

Re: radiator hose routing

Fabricate the long hoses...definitely.

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Re: radiator hose routing

The smaller  radiator sits pretty low, so it would have to lose more than a little coolant, but I understand the reason the intake hose is at the bottom.  The bottom hose will have to run right across in front of the 1000-degree headers.  I will have to put the header wrap on now. 
.

6 (edited by Guildenstern 2019-07-21 07:48 PM)

Re: radiator hose routing

Have you considered perhaps this radiator is not an ideal solution in any way at all?

Also how did you plan to get the air out of the cylinder head if the top of the radiator is below that height? Is there a bleed valve up there?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

7 (edited by Spank 2019-07-21 10:46 PM)

Re: radiator hose routing

why not braze new nipples on the opposite sides of the tanks?

Or buy a ~$40 chineseum radiator off ebay that has the outlets on the correct side.

I've been known to use a "Scirocco style" radiator with an inline filler neck. Both inlet and outlet are on the same side on the scirocco style and you can flip it upside own and it doesn't really care. Miata radiators are also really cheap.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/puUAAOSwHHRb~Q-F/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/H10AAOSwo5Nc2lCI/s-l640.jpg

Re: radiator hose routing

944 radiator is typical aluminum with plastic tanks.  I actually have two of them. 

Like many cars, the radiator sits low in front and there are expansion/fill plastic tank that are
above the water line, with the narrower 944 radiator, it can sit even lower and a little  further forward.

Because it is a PORSCHE radiator, you know it will make the car handle better.  wink

This is the stock mx3 setup, I updated it to a slightly different setup used in the later model mazda 626.

Looks like it will be ok with the crossover hoses, I have some 1.5in aluminum tubing.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/tech/SAE_920677_files/fig31.gif

Here is a pic of a 944 radiator, it has nice shroud with good fans.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--0juCYvtb--/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q_80,w_1200/szgga8axxm8dmaronkx7.jpg

Re: radiator hose routing

My thought was "enough can go wrong at the track already, without trying to make a cooling circuit work backwards"

It might work, but gravity always wins, so I wouldn't bet on being able to not get a big air pocket right where you don't want it- the head...

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Re: radiator hose routing

I did the cross over hoses, not a big problem really, just a small one as one of the hoses running in front of the fans was cut into by a fan during the Northworst race this weekend at The Ridge. was a simple fix at the track, readjusted so rubber was between fans, problem solved.

However, we still had overheating issues with the bigger radiator and good fans.
Car was fine when colder in the morning, but afternoon and it would hit 240F when running it hard.
Our two newbie drivers running not-so-fast never had heat issues, but our two gunners would get it hot and it blew the 14lb cap once
on sunday afternoon.  This was the same problem we had before, when I toasted the last engine. 
We made it through the whole weekend though, so that was great.  smile
All the plugs before showed it running rich, have not looked at them yet this time.

We added some ducting sunday morning and didn't seem to help, but it was a rushed poorly done job.
I am just not sure what needs to be done.  I've been told these KL V6 engines run hot, but there must be a solution.

Would adding an oil cooler help?  Even bigger thicker radiator?

Re: radiator hose routing

From the guy that got me started, "An oil cooler will do more than the radiator"

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Re: radiator hose routing

Reading plugs is not reliable. To tell if it’s running rich or lean install a wide band.

Make sure your lower radiator hose is not collapsing. It either should have a spring inside most of the length or be made from rigid pipe.

Otherwise, look for restrictions on the air side. Also look for ways that air can bypass the radiator.

Re: radiator hose routing

Are you certain you have proper flow through the radiator and out from the engine bay? A surprising amount of things people do to improve it actually makes things worse because it can cause stagnant air and move flow weird places.

Does it overheat if you leave the fan running the whole time?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: radiator hose routing

So, the only way that I was able to get my first 24 HoL build (V8 SHO) cool, after many iterative attempts,
was to install a Ron Davis 2-pass radiator. I think I killed three, maybe four, engines before that solution.

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Re: radiator hose routing

DelinquentRacer wrote:

So, the only way that I was able to get my first 24 HoL build (V8 SHO) cool, after many iterative attempts,
was to install a Ron Davis 2-pass radiator. I think I killed three, maybe four, engines before that solution.

...and then we found other ways to kill it.... big_smile

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Re: radiator hose routing

I like the oil cooler idea, mostly because I already have a couple from the rx8, so budget friendly.  smile

I do have a wide-band O2 plumbed into the new headers, but did not have time to install it to record the readings over the runs.

I really don't know how the air flows, anyone have a wind tunnel I can borrow for a 12 pack?
Or another easy way to measure/see it?   smoke while towing it on the trailer??
Or just some high powered fans?  I have a pretty powerful one in the shop.

Looking at the car, I do see that without the headlights, the air can rush into the engine compartment
from the open holes, that might be an issue, I should seal those off, we plan to run ducts to the brakes though them, but haven't done it yet.

The fans are on all the time.

I know the best approach is like lotus does with a hood opening to vent out the air, but there is just no room in this small car to do that properly.  I saw how the Rotary Rooter guys have theirs setup, but no room to do that in this car.

Re: radiator hose routing

You can put little tufts of string along the top of the cowl and if you like giving your GoPro an adventure, down under/inside the engine compartment and on the radiator.

Hood vents aren't always the best if the engine compartment is designed with a baffled flow like a lot of post 80's cars are where the air is designed to exit under the engine into the tunnel/under-pan area. Unless you have the room to box in an Extractor hood feature behind the Radiator but in front of the engine.  Ensure the air wants to ONLY go through the radiator, and then exits freely once behind it.

Even with brake ducts, I would definitely enclose the headlight area to prevent disruptive secondary air entrance under the hood. The only air you want ending up behind the radiator is air that just passed through the radiator.

Perhaps put the oil coolers in those ducts and dump them under the car behind the engine, or out the sides behind the front wheel wells?

Beyond that it does become wind tunnel level stuff. Energizing strakes on the K member, Secondary extractor fans, Venturi extractors, etc...Nobody running the correct engine should need to worry about that in Lemons unless they ripped out all their undertray/splash guards.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: radiator hose routing

Oil cooler will help. Ensuring the car is running the right AFR will also help. But don't over think it. Basic approach is make sure all the air that hits the front of the car either goes through the radiator, or is deflected away somewhere. Air will take the path of least resistance, so if you have gaping holes where the headlights were, air will go through there, then pressurize the engine bay and make it so the radiator doesn't see as much air flow as it needs. Seal off every hole in the front end that isn't the radiator or other coolers.


It wasn't asked, are you sure that 944 radiator is clean inside? They can gunk up and become less efficient over time. It's possible that the 944 rad is actually less helpful than a new stock MX-3 radiator. easy check is to get the car up to temp so the thermostat is open, then check the radiator for cold spots (ideally with an IR thermometer, and not your hand do you don't burn yourself).

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19 (edited by nimblemotorsports 2019-09-15 09:48 PM)

Re: radiator hose routing

I have installed the rx8 oil cooler, used a generic remote oil filter kit and ran the cooler beween them.
mounted in the headlight hole I needed to fill anyway.
I also removed the factory oil cooler/heater, so hot oil will not impact the water temp.
I will post a video maybe if I ever get around to edit it..   It seems to work well, in that it is putting out a lot of heat.    I also did a pressure test and found at 20lb the 944 radiator drips, so I went ahead and bought a new all-aluminum 3-row (turbo 944)  just to be safe.  Added a 19lb cap, so should not boil until 255F.
And added some duct/sealing.  All of this should solve the problem.. smile

Here is pic of the hose I made.

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/prod.mm.com/uploads/2019/08/09/1565385915_img_0007_mmthumb.JPG

Re: radiator hose routing

To follow-up, we ran at button terrible and engine temps stayed about 210F during friday practice when it was 83F, so looks like the oil cooler was the fix, since we didn't do all the ducting and tested it as-is.
It was cooler during the race, and still 210 all day.