Tech Escalation... (Page 1 of 2)

Oh boy, I just deleted my response to the other thread about the $500 because.. well..

$500 is clearly not relevant when Viper powered cars win awards and not scorn.

And now it has been suggested that you practice with the car and learn to drive before a race.

Things have changed?   Ummm.....Yes. (to quote the recap video

I think ill-advised engine swaps have mostly been encouraged? See radial-powered MR2 (also not $500, but also, nobody cared). If it was an Icon Rolls with a Viper swap and carefully managed patina with an Art Morrison chassis... it wouldn't have been in C.

Overspending on things that don't actually make your car a better racecar seem also to have been mostly encouraged. And arguably, eating 22 gph, 3 (or 6?) engines did not make the Trolls Royce a better racecar. Those things might have made it a better Lemons car, because there is no other venue I know of that rewards that kind of shenanigans (Bonneville doesn't count, there's only one trophy, and The Baron isn't competitive there).

Lots of people do practice racing. It's probably a good way to improve the most important component, the nut behind the wheel. I haven't seen anyone advise "not knowing how to drive" as a pre-req for Lemons licensing... but there are certainly different levels of "knowing how to drive."

The things suggested in the other thread have nothing to do with the "spirit of Lemons." Nothing gets worse when people learn not to stuff two cars in a one car hole (or when people leaving a one car hole learn to leave a two car hole, because there are actually two cars that will be there in a second).

If you are going to whine about "the spirit of Lemons," I'd prefer you whine about stacker trailers, radio setups, and limited paddock space for unlimited parking of really nice cars at a hooptie race.

But I'm just some dude on the internet who would rather share a beer with you in the paddock or lend you the one tool/part you didn't bring that I just happen to have. See you at the track? Inde, maybe Willow, maybe HPR (x2?), maybe Buttonwillow, and maybe MSR.

Oh... they give out penalty laps... I can verify that.

The series is the same.  Has been for the 10 years I’ve been around. Cars are really not that much faster.   Driving is better on average.  Everything is a little more competitive... but not in a bad way.  There may be a little less pageantry, but it’s still there.   Fields are still deep.  Traffic is plentiful.   We all still drink beer together, and teams still help each other even when racing against each other.   It still Lemons.

The "no whining" rule still exists................ 

Things are much faster, more cars finish and finishing in the top ten is very challenging these days.  Class B cars seem to be just as likely to win overall as A class cars. And, the driving seems to be a bit better these days.

Granted, my perspective is only East Coast and generally just the South East, but I think the growth and change has only made things better for us all.

In my view the Viper Rolls, which is a cool car,  is Jumping the Shark for Lemons.

Participation in Northern California has declined, you guys elsewhere maybe haven't caught up yet.

The whining is there is only one viable Lemons race here in 2020. 

... did I hear my name? I think I heard my name ...

I agree 100%. 

Not that anyone cares, or that it will ever change, but I think it should be mandatory to attend at least one HPDE prior to getting on the track for a race.  It would be safer for all involved.  I probably did over 50 HPDE events prior to my first race, and sure glad I did.

I think the side of it that most never consider is the wear and tear running the series must put on the organizers. We're at year what, 13? At a certain point you start to burn out on any job, and this is a job for those running it. They keep doing it because it works, and it's profitable, and there is a huge group of people who want to keep doing it, but at some point you just stop caring as much about the silly details because the main logistics are just that time consuming.

I see it in a lot of volunteer organizations (and Lemons is a volunteer organization, no matter if there is compensation involved, you still need the people to step up and volunteer to help). The original group has a vision, but over time they start to burn out from the effort, so they bring in new help, but the new help changes things slightly. Then that group starts to burn out because things keep growing and you really need even more help. And eventually little details have vanished and it becomes an effort to just keep moving things as normal. My local makerspace is this way. We can't get new members to step up and help run the place, and the same 20 people who do all the work are just done. So the wonderful community that used to exist has fallen apart and now we're fighting to keep things operating the way they need to. It's no longer fun to go there and help, it's become angering to have to show up and clean up the same messes over and over because no one else will step up to do it. And we all complain about how things used to be different.

I'm not saying that Jay and crew are completely done and don't care, but it has to wear on them a bit. There's some people moving on that have been around forever. Just remember that when we wistfully wish for the good old days.

Same:
- Great Forums discussions, respectful, thoughtful, insightful, mature

I never understood why they give penalty laps to cars in Class B or C, if the purpose of penalty laps is to punish cars that are too Cheaty/Expensive....seems like those cars would then automatically be placed in Class A. (keeping in mind the Lemons Loophole clause, which I think is truly appropriate...who isn't entertained at watching someone bring a super expensive car go racing, and then see it go KaBoom)....and certainly you could bring something as expensive as you want (Diamond studded AMC Gremlin, Viper Rolls, etc.), since those are  "expensive", but not really "Cheaty"....Seems like a Viper engine in a Rolls does not make it more likely to win anything except HF or IGS award....)
So it seems that penalty laps that are given, are only handed out to keep someone form winning too easily in each class.
So they hand out just a few laps to keep some teams from having too many repeat wins....But this does not seem to prevent teams from bringing more expensive cheaty cars....and creating such a speed discrepancy. 
And certainly 5 or 10 laps may prevent you from winning, but it won't stop you from making your car cheatier...

Also, junkier cars are becoming more reliable, so there seems to be less of an attrition rate at races: most people don't want to be stuck in the dirt wrenching on their car when they paid a lot of money to race....they can work on their car for free at home....so people are learning to prep their cars better....and stay out on the track more....And the more, the merrier!

Well, at least the attendance at the Northeast races has not seemed to decrease....although I'm spoiled since the races are relatively close to each other...

Thanks Lemons Jay&Co.!   Keep up the great work!

Even if those who don’t race in the 24HOL think this series is a joke and not real racing, and even if some who DO race the 24HOL don’t take the racing seriously and view it as an outlet for their mechanical creativity, it doesn’t mean that teams who DO want to “race” in the 24HOL can’t continue to develop their car, improve organization and race craft. 

To suggest that somehow those teams are always cheating or are not “in the spirit of Lemons” is short-sighted.  A majority of those teams (C, B or A class) have spent a considerable amount of time finding ways to “get better” and do it within the budget rules.  Some have found ways to transplant engines for free, or improve suspensions for free.  Some have bought a fuel cell and do longer stints.  Often it has taken teams several years and lots of failed attempts before any “success” happens.   But of course, those teams “try too hard”, “don’t get Lemons”, “are a danger to others”, or “are going to make newbie teams not want to come back”.

I suspect a majority of teams these days want to race at whatever speed, and want to do it in a non-threatening and accepting environment.   The option of having a theme and “competing” for judged awards that don’t require on track success really helps to give everyone some hope of recognition for their efforts.  I think it is ok to have some fast teams at the pointy end as long as they are safe and respectful.  I can think of teams in the Midwest like Bucksnort, Subliminal Racing, and Save the Tata’s that we were chasing, and that made it fun. 

As far as class progression and Lemons encouraging team to go faster....  If we never were pushed out of C with our 55 HP Geo Metro we likely would have done another year with it and likely would have won C another 3-4 times until it was no longer interesting.  Would allowing a team to get 6-7 wins in a row in C be better than moving them out?  Not sure...

As with all things, there is change.  I have had serious interest from organizers on how they can improve things.  Talk to them.

Because laps are not always about punishment, they are also about class balancing. There are cars that can dominate C, but have no chance of winning B, so you give them some laps to even the playing field in C and give more teams a shot at fighting it out for class win. Same with all the other classes. At the top you often see cars that have won overall get laps to even out the top of the field (or an attempt at that anyway). BS laps are first for enforcing the budget, and second for trying to balance classes with cars that fall somewhere in between classes.