Topic: Learn me: Race Minivans

It’s probably the haze of nog and Christmas dinner but I find myself serious contemplating building a minivan for Lemons. Granted the smart thing to do would be to fix our Miata and just enjoy slow but sort of reliable Miata life.

But if you were going to build a Lemons Minivan what would you do? Odyssey’s and Siennas are dirt cheap in my neck of the woods. And eBay coil over kits are a dime a dozen. Previas are few and far between but midengine race van is pretty cool.

I have this weird idea of leaving it tagged and using it to haul crap when not at a race track. and maybe even doing track days in at and embarrassing “real” race cars.

What say you?

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Absolute rule #1 of race vans.

DO NOT CUT THE TOP OFF OF IT!!!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Stay away from the auto trans in Odyssey’s, they barely make it through warranty!

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
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Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

I'd look into an older Mazda MPV if you want to be whacky.

But a 96-97 5.0 v8 explorer if you want a heavy hauler / racer might make more sense, which means it is just a little less than stupid as a race car.    Racing and hauling stuff not really compatible uses.

Or a pickup truck, like a jeep comanche

5 (edited by mthew_m 2019-12-26 05:12 PM)

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

I think you'd find a lot of support for this issue.  I know there have been 2nd gen Odysseys before (not sure about 1st?), but don't recall seeing a Sienna.  I do know that an Isuzu Oasis was on the 'Want to see in Lemons' list, at least awhile back. 

I'm partial to GM stuff, so I'd probably look at the U-body vans. 
There are some 1st gen vans racing (OnkelUdo has lots of experience) -
- Judges seem to love them
- Base models used a Chevy 60degree V6, which has lots of upgrade options, but most came with the Buick 3800 V6, which is pretty solid itself, but could probably be swapped out for the supercharged L67 for 240hp/280tq, only problem would be space (but isn't that what the plasma cutter is for?)  There's also a budget-friendly path to a manual transmission here as well. 

Second gen van could be good, I've seen a picture of one, but don't know too terribly much about them.  To my knowledge, these all came with the 3400 Chevy 60degree V6, which makes good power, but won't do it for long on the stock plastic lower intake manifold.  But, a better quality, metal LIM is $100 and an afternoon (maybe a day) away.  These come with a slightly beefier 4T65E transmission, compared to the not great 4T60E in the gen 1.  Not sure about manual swapability, but, probably similarly easy to gen 1.  *Bonus - this is the gen that the Pontiac Aztek & Buick Rendezvous got built off of.  I've frequently seen the Buicks (and, honestly, the rest of them) going for Lemons money with 'incurable overheating issues' (i.e. a bad LIM and, possibly, head gasket) - so, that frequently means new water pump, radiator, thermostat, ignition parts, etc, all thrown in for free!  I believe the Rendezvous is on the 'Want to see in Lemons' list, because, for some reason, one still hasn't turned up.  They were also later available with GMs stout 3.6L DOHC, but, probably harder to find that in budget. 

Third gen van, or, what I'd probably go with.  Remember when GM decided they wanted their vans to look like 'Sporty' SUVs?  Yeah, these are those.  Not pretty, but, I'd have to imagine that protruding nose makes working on it vastly more straightforward than the typical van with a 1' deep window into the engine.  Engine options are the 3500 (LX9) and 3900 (LZ9), the final iteration of the 60degree V6, mostly the same as the Impala and lots of other GM cars.  200hp/220tq and 240hp/240tq, respectively (and the 60degree engines all tend to be very, very torquey).  Better 4T65E transmission, but, not sure if the budget-friendly manual option would work in these.  The 6-speed from a G6 GTP should bolt right up, and should be pretty straightforward if you get the PCM.  Not cheap, because GM sadly sold very few of them, but, they exist. *Edit: These were also available with AWD, albeit only with the 3.5.  Rendezvous could (and largely did) have AWD too.  And, as if in a sign from the universe, a fleet-only shorty Uplander passed by me when I went to the store after posting. 

Suspension upgrades do exist (at least for gen 1s, not sure about the other two), and really great brakes are a small amount of work away.  It sounds like you plan to go Japanese, but, thought I'd give you some options anyways!  I'm sure a second-gen Odyssey with a 6-speed swap would be tons of fun - who knows, maybe you could even keep the terrible automatic alive for a whole race!

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Our team races a truck that is plated and used off track as a parts getter/daily driver by one of our team members.  We take it to the local track for track days and are very much the slowest vehicle there.  We are regularly on track with vipers, corvettes, and 3 series.  We never passed another car on track until our first Lemons race.  Such a momentous occasion!  In our case, everyone is very cool about us being there.  We don't try to misrepresent what we are, and have plenty of practice at waving people by.  The down side is very rarely do we get a full flying lap as we are usually off line waving others by.

The bad side of plating your race car is there are certain things that have to remain on the car like the turn signals that I keep hitting my knee on.  You have to be mindful of where you place your disconnect and fire pull so someone in a parking lot doesn't get a bright idea.  It gets tiresome resetting suspension and brakes for road vs track use.  We have a bonus of living in an area with no vehicle inspection requirements and the redneck trucks on the road are much louder than our heap so we don't get many complaints.

1975 Chevy LUV.  1 Corinthians 13:7
1999 Chevy Blazer

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Build a 5.0 V8 Aerostar and be everyone's hero.

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Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Something like this?

https colon //www dot facebook dot com/24holpistonliberationfront/photos/a.327053430959878/998390507159497/?type=3

replace colon and dots with the real symbols since I'm a new poster and it won't let me post real urls

All wheel drive great in the rain, but non-supercharged version slow as slow. Gotta watch the mirrors.  Still, we ran in the top half of the pack, took checkered flags both days, and had a fun couple days racing, not wrenching.

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

https://m.facebook.com/24holpistonliber … 97/?type=3

Well that is all kinds of awesome.

The GM ones do sound promising. I guess I was leaning more towards Japanese, the Odyssey especially because that’s what everyone I know uses as a kid hauler and I like the idea of repurposing those.

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

We do race a U-body aka Dustbuster and it has a ton of pluses and a ton of minuses   Biggest plus is we have raced it long enough (5 years?) we can tell you what does and does not work plus what fails.

Good:
3800 is bulletproof
easy to cage
Bi-Lev for the heat dries your shoes while keeping 13' of windshield fog free
Amazing in the rain and quick enough on the straights in the dry to embarass many "fast" cars

Bad:
Autotrans 4T60E average .8 races per until we swapped in a manual
Wheel bearings...they are budgetted consumables...about 2 races per for fronts and 4-5 for rears
Front brakes turn race pads into bannana shaped items welded to your rotors
Wiring...GM in the 1990's
Rust
Rear drums (Uplander upgrade solves that)
Rust
Working on the back side of the engine (valve cover seal, PS lines, etc)
Rust
Starter heat soak

Granted, we have solved all of the issues except access to the rear of the engine and rust.  Oh, and starter heat soak but since we have a manual we can push start it.  Also changing to a manual improved fuel economy to less than 6 gallons per hour...we can do 3 hour stints on a stock tank.

11 (edited by Crazybob 2019-12-28 06:59 AM)

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

That the U body has a manual option does make it appealing. I wonder if the odyssey has a reasonable manual swap? Isn’t it basically and Accord? Seems like an accord manual would be a possible option.

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Crazybob wrote:

That the U body has a manual option does make it appealing. I wonder if the odyssey has a reasonable manual swap? Isn’t it basically and Accord? Seems like an accord manual would be a possible option.

I know the Honda guys run a Acura TL trans in their racing Odyssey.

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Crazybob wrote:

That the U body has a manual option does make it appealing. I wonder if the odyssey has a reasonable manual swap? Isn’t it basically and Accord? Seems like an accord manual would be a possible option.

It does not have a manual option in the US but it is a GM...many parts are legos.  We did a manual swap with a theoretically common (realistically not really) 5-speed from a certain Cavalier.  It still requires fab and playing the mix and match game for axles (I think we can remember what we did).

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

nimblemotorsports wrote:

I'd look into an older Mazda MPV if you want to be whacky.

But a 96-97 5.0 v8 explorer if you want a heavy hauler / racer might make more sense, which means it is just a little less than stupid as a race car.    Racing and hauling stuff not really compatible uses.

Or a pickup truck, like a jeep comanche

I suggest staying away from Mazda MPV, unless you are a glutton for punishment.
We had a 2000 MPV we purchased in 2002, the engine was weak/underpowered, and the transmission was very rough, and shifted poorly.  Apparently Ford gave Mazda some kind of crap to put under the hood for that model.
Then it blew a head gasket at 130,000 for no reason, and we kept having mechanical issues with it, so we got kid of it at 150K miles, in approx. 2008
Junk
Don't get me wrong, for the time, it was a good option for us, with our second child, we had to get rid of the diesel Golf with rusted holes in the floor and exhaust leaks...and the only other option was the Odyssey that had doors that opened on both sides and windows that rolled down...but they were out of our price range...
And it had 3rd row seat, walk through middle, ski box on roof, etc. Typical mini van/new family story...
But I expect my cars to last longer

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

MZAVARIN wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:

I'd look into an older Mazda MPV if you want to be whacky.

But a 96-97 5.0 v8 explorer if you want a heavy hauler / racer might make more sense, which means it is just a little less than stupid as a race car.    Racing and hauling stuff not really compatible uses.

Or a pickup truck, like a jeep comanche

I suggest staying away from Mazda MPV, unless you are a glutton for punishment...

Well obviously they ARE a glutton for punishment if wanting to race a van.
The MPV is a smaller sized van. An Odessy is fcking huge, so great to get in the way of real(tm) racers.

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

STEP ONE: CUT OFF THE ROOF.

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1WdmFn8GnK3GrEzuPsJSiC5ZTVmC4aH2K

STEP TWO: DOMINATION.

'18 PNW-Organizer's Choice '17 PNW-IOE '15 PNW-Judge's Choice '14 PNW-Heroic Fix
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Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

A first generation Toyota Previa is mid-engined and it was available with a supercharger and all wheel drive. 

How could a mid-engined, AWD, supercharged car fail to dominate?

Re: Learn me: Race Minivans

Haven't had an Aerostar Yet. Don't care what you do to it, especially if you make it—or any van, who am I kidding—look like the Transit Supervan (Mk. 1, 2, or 3).

https://66.media.tumblr.com/62083a9987738a582d14757f0ded64c4/tumblr_oe1k6tfLxV1u8imavo1_400.jpg

https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/002-_1984_supervan_2_based_on_the_mid-engine_ford_c100_racing_sports_car_chassis._it_had_a_f1_based_cosworth_dfl_v8_engine_and_hit_174mph_at_the_silverstone_gp_circuit.jpg

https://carsguide-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/f_auto,fl_lossy,q_auto,t_blog_large/v1/editorial/Ford-Supervan-%283%29.jpg


OR bring us a Dajiban.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/6e/ef/fc6eefa7b56badbd97e2b7d9a18d4877.jpg

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com