• Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Topic: Chicken or the egg?

I have decided I want to torment myself and participate in this years Lemons race in Pittsburgh PA.

I work for a heavy machinery company, and we have a great crew of guys here to get the job done.

My question is this… I want to register to get in the system ASAP.  But we don’t have a car, or a concept just yet.  Our theme sort of hinges on the car, and we have only begun our car hunt.

I noticed when I go to register, it is asking for team name, theme, etc.

I wouldn’t imagine you can change once you enter these details, so I am assuming I need to wait until I have a car and a concept?  Is there a risk in not getting accepted, and then being stuck with the car?

Just trying to determine my best first move.

Thank you!

  • Emyr
  • Paddock Rat
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2018-08-08
  • Posts: 49

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Entering a race is giving yourself a pretty serious deadline. Several teams have turned up at races with unfinished cars and then failed to finish then and pass tech before the chequered flag.

If you haven't got the car yet, you have no idea how big your project is.

Don't enter until you at least have the car.

  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
  • Posts: 2,110

Re: Chicken or the egg?

My car wasn't ready for either of the first two races in which I entered it, despite the fact that I had started with a car that I had already owned and used as a daily-driver for several years before deciding to race it. It is certainly possible to go from not having a car to being ready to race in about three months but that's a fairly tight schedule if you've never prepped a car for something like this before, especially if you're hoping to fit in most or all of the work in everyone's spare time.

I'd be more worried about not being ready than about not getting accepted. Keep in mind that after you enter, are accepted, and pay your fees, there are no refunds. I agree with Emyr that you should wait to apply until after you have a car and have evaluated what it needs. Given how quickly the race is approaching, finding the car needs to happen real soon anyway.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

4 Reply by BigBird (edited by BigBird 2020-01-23 05:10 PM)

  • From: SF BayArea/Land of Enchantment
  • Registered: 2012-01-22
  • Posts: 901

Re: Chicken or the egg?

The only sure-fire way to make sure your car is ready(not to mention the cheeeepest way to get into racing) is to buy Chad's car....
Or another previously raced Lemon....But really,just buy Chad's car....

https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=38788

You won't have the hassle of wrenching at the last second,and you'll find out the ins and outs of getting your car to the track...
Once you get your first race under your belt,you'll find out who your friends are.
A lot of people seem enthusiastic at first,but vanish when it comes to paying real dollars.....
They tell me that it could cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $5000 to get a new car to the track for the first time.....
Sooooo,a previously raced car for a grand is a helluva deal......

YMMV,not mine,no affiliation,etc........

45+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)
  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
  • Posts: 2,227

Re: Chicken or the egg?

I can't speak directly to it, but I don't think Pitt is a full up kind of race. You may want to contact Eric Rood now though and see what his read is on it as of right now.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Guildenstern's Website

  • From: Plymouth, MA
  • Registered: 2013-06-07
  • Posts: 786

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Signing up is free, and you can do it anytime before the race....and you can go back and change stuff, in general for your team
All that "signing up" does really, is reserve your number.  We "sign up" for all the races we want to do for the year around December.
And if you "sign up", you can also withdraw from the race any time
But, once you "sign up" you will need to pay up...by deadline
There is an initial "deadline" (approx. 8 weeks before the race) but actually you can pay, up to approx. 3 weeks before the race, without penalty, if not sold out.  In fact, I think you can actually show up, and pay at the day of the race, but with an extra fee (?a few extra benjamins...
But the way the way it seems to work these days, is on a "First come/pay, first serve", system.  Until the race is sold out
The Pittsburgh track seems like a popular attraction, so it might sell out.

And I agree with the suggestion of just buying a "ready" car....since the Pitts race only 3 months away.
Even if you get a "ready" car, there will likely still be stuff to do: buy new tires, change brakes and flush lines, maybe fire suppression, stock up on fuel jugs, cart, safety clothing, arrange towing, check harness for expiration, check stuff including exhaust, belts,  etc.; theme,

So seems the smart way to go would be to get the car first....
Having said that, actually the Lemons way, is often not the "smart way"...full of procrastination and last minute decisions...

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022
  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Thank you guys for all of the advice!

I don’t want to sound like I am not taking the advice seriously about the time crunch, it sounds like it’s going to be super tight, however I want to expand on a few things...

We are doing this project “as a company” so we are being backed with funds from the business as well as vendors and customers that we regularly work with who think the project is a fun idea. We have several employees who are drivers in different forms of auto-sports, so we have qualified drivers who all own their safety gear.

Our business builds high capacity, customized material handling equipment. We have a staff of over 300 employees consisting of fabricators, electricians, engineers, mechanics, body guys, painters, etc. We have pretty much every manufacturing tool and supply you would need to build every car in the race. There really is not a lack of resources. The company has agreed to allocate some work time to get the job done if that’s what it takes. We build much bigger more complex machines on a regular basis, so as long as we follow the directions and rules, I don’t see the typical issues a couple guys would have drinking beer wrenching on the weekends.

Does that information change the perspective of the advice?

We have a local junkyard who told us we could pick any car we want and they would work with us on it. I could have a car in a week and start the build.

Sorry for the rant, just seems like it’s important to the scope of the work.  With that said, it sounds like I need a car and a good theme to get going.

Thank you guys!

  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 669

Re: Chicken or the egg?

You can register and put a placeholder in for car type and theme.  If you get your car ready, update then pay.  Read the rules and 'How not to fail tech' many times.

They are very understanding and will often give you an extension to pay for races that will not be sold out, you just need to send Nick an email after you get your first 'Pay up sucker' email.  There are even instructions in your first pay up email.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • VKZ24
  • VKZ24
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Wilson, NC
  • Registered: 2009-05-20
  • Posts: 1,839

Re: Chicken or the egg?

peteman187 wrote:

Thank you guys for all of the advice!

I don’t want to sound like I am not taking the advice seriously about the time crunch, it sounds like it’s going to be super tight, however I want to expand on a few things...

We are doing this project “as a company” so we are being backed with funds from the business as well as vendors and customers that we regularly work with who think the project is a fun idea. We have several employees who are drivers in different forms of auto-sports, so we have qualified drivers who all own their safety gear.

Our business builds high capacity, customized material handling equipment. We have a staff of over 300 employees consisting of fabricators, electricians, engineers, mechanics, body guys, painters, etc. We have pretty much every manufacturing tool and supply you would need to build every car in the race. There really is not a lack of resources. The company has agreed to allocate some work time to get the job done if that’s what it takes. We build much bigger more complex machines on a regular basis, so as long as we follow the directions and rules, I don’t see the typical issues a couple guys would have drinking beer wrenching on the weekends.

Does that information change the perspective of the advice?

We have a local junkyard who told us we could pick any car we want and they would work with us on it. I could have a car in a week and start the build.

Sorry for the rant, just seems like it’s important to the scope of the work.  With that said, it sounds like I need a car and a good theme to get going.

Thank you guys!

The problem (for most of us) is the ca$h.  Once you are paid, there are NO REFUNDS, so if you don't make the deadline of the race, too bad.  Jay keeps the loot.

We started building our current car in Nov 2014 and made it to the Barber race in February 2015 with a completed car.  The caveat to that time frame was it was our 3rd build, so we knew what was what.   

IMO, you can totally get it done in your time frame if you indeed have all those resources.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

VKZ24's Website

  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Some previous threads have indicated problems with getting a fire suppression setup DELIVERED because of short supply near the beginning of the season.

I recall no threads indicating problems sourcing - in a timely fashion - any of the other required equipment.

It seems like resources for the build are not an issue.

Do you consider Pittsburgh to be your home track?

I want to work for your company  ;-) ; but, if you're too far away for a  daily commute, I'd be happy to settle for the financial and logistical support you'll receive for the build...

  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
  • Posts: 2,227

Re: Chicken or the egg?

sign up now. Just put whatever in the car/theme don’t pay until you’re ready to race. Be ready to race at least 3 weeks prior to the race. Even without a car picked, get your non-build specific safety gear ordered like yesterday if you haven’t already. Build your 24/7 (well 7am to 9pm daily anyways) Summit Racing parts getter team now.

I wouldn’t wait more than mid February to get a car picked and in the shop.

Do that, you’ll be gold by Friday tech.

Feel free to hassle us here with every question you have as soon as you have it. This is why it’s here.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Guildenstern's Website

  • From: Somewhere in CA...
  • Registered: 2017-10-26
  • Posts: 196

Re: Chicken or the egg?

peteman187 wrote:

We are doing this project “as a company” so we are being backed with funds from the business as well as vendors and customers that we regularly work with who think the project is a fun idea.

You guys hiring?

  • Spank
  • Utter Madman
  • Offline
  • From: Escondido, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 5,863

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Cue company lawyers in 3... 2... 1...

Spank's Website

  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Some previous threads have indicated problems with getting a fire suppression setup DELIVERED because of short supply near the beginning of the season.

I recall no threads indicating problems sourcing - in a timely fashion - any of the other required equipment.

It seems like resources for the build are not an issue.

Do you consider Pittsburgh to be your home track?

I want to work for your company  ;-) ; but, if you're too far away for a  daily commute, I'd be happy to settle for the financial and logistical support you'll receive for the build...


I see suppression systems available to ship on several sites, so I think we are good there.

Yes Pittsburgh is my home track.  I autocross on the tarmac there on the weekends, and I have been on the road track a few times with other vehicles of mine.  I know the layout well.

  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Guildenstern wrote:

sign up now. Just put whatever in the car/theme don’t pay until you’re ready to race. Be ready to race at least 3 weeks prior to the race. Even without a car picked, get your non-build specific safety gear ordered like yesterday if you haven’t already. Build your 24/7 (well 7am to 9pm daily anyways) Summit Racing parts getter team now.

I wouldn’t wait more than mid February to get a car picked and in the shop.

Do that, you’ll be gold by Friday tech.

Feel free to hassle us here with every question you have as soon as you have it. This is why it’s here.


THANK YOU!  This is what I was looking for!

  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Re: Chicken or the egg?

So I got the green light from the execs, and we are a go!  I mentioned it to a few guys in the shop and they all went crazy. 

My plan is to get a car in the next week, get it gutted within a day or two and start on the cage.

We have a potential car too.  1987 Chevy Chevette CS 4 speed.  Running condition for $500 exactly.  One of our employees father in laws old cars.  Wont be the fastest or best looking but I think it could work!  Anyone have any experience here with a Lemons Chevette?

Does anyone have experience with any of the cage kits from Summit?  I always planned on fabricating our own cage, but they have a kit for the Chevette that claims to be Lemons complaint for like $400.  Tempting.

  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 669

Re: Chicken or the egg?

peteman187 wrote:

I see suppression systems available to ship on several sites, so I think we are good there.

Ya, that was the case when I ordered one as well, then got the email that everyone was out of stock.  This was last year, I did find one locally.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • Registered: 2017-02-22
  • Posts: 221

Re: Chicken or the egg?

I know some guys ran a turbo diesel vette at NCM.

I use to deliver pizza in a lemony 81.

Watch out for the throttle linkage at the carb, as it wears it can stick and stay wide open. Mine did that.

Where in the burgh are you? I'm out in New Ken, and my Lemon is hiding in Cranberry.

Don't forget the North Park Autocross once the season starts.

88 Festiva  -  Damn Tree!!!
"We Are Not Really From Iran" Festiva  -  Motor and Trans to be anounced
  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Re: Chicken or the egg?

fitsbain wrote:

I know some guys ran a turbo diesel vette at NCM.

I use to deliver pizza in a lemony 81.

Watch out for the throttle linkage at the carb, as it wears it can stick and stay wide open. Mine did that.

Where in the burgh are you? I'm out in New Ken, and my Lemon is hiding in Cranberry.

Don't forget the North Park Autocross once the season starts.


Thanks for the tips!  I am located near Robinson, so is our business.  I grew up not too far from New Ken though.

I love the North Park Autocross, I went several times last year and plan to go much more this year.  I have the yellow Miata NB, 99es car.

  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Re: Chicken or the egg?

We have decided to build the cage.  I have an experienced cage builder who can do it quickly for us, we just have to buy the material which should be around $250 tops.

The car is getting trailered to me tomorrow, then we will start the gutting process.

I am thinking of starting a full build thread.  Is there a good place here to do that?

  • From: SF Bay Area
  • Registered: 2012-01-06
  • Posts: 721

Re: Chicken or the egg?

peteman187 wrote:

We have decided to build the cage.  I have an experienced cage builder who can do it quickly for us, we just have to buy the material which should be around $250 tops.

The car is getting trailered to me tomorrow, then we will start the gutting process.

I am thinking of starting a full build thread.  Is there a good place here to do that?

MAKE SURE YOU GIVE THE BUILDER THE CAGE RULES AND HOW NOT TO FAIL TECH.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater
  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 9

Re: Chicken or the egg?

DelinquentRacer wrote:
peteman187 wrote:

We have decided to build the cage.  I have an experienced cage builder who can do it quickly for us, we just have to buy the material which should be around $250 tops.

The car is getting trailered to me tomorrow, then we will start the gutting process.

I am thinking of starting a full build thread.  Is there a good place here to do that?

MAKE SURE YOU GIVE THE BUILDER THE CAGE RULES AND HOW NOT TO FAIL TECH.


Yes of course.  This guy is one of our employees and I already sent him everything and we talked several times on the phone. He said it was all straightforward and would take a day and a half max. He is coming tomorrow to take measurements to order materials.

23 Reply by Lemon_Newton-Metre (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2020-01-29 07:58 PM)

  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Chicken or the egg?

peteman187 wrote:

I am thinking of starting a full build thread.  Is there a good place here to do that?

This highly impressive and entertaining thread:

"I bought a Rolls Royce and want to build it."

was posted in:
Forums/General Topics/Lemons Tech [Description: "Building and tweaking your Lemons car"]

I have suggested it be moved to the "Epic Build" section, but that's only my opinion.

  • From: SF BayArea/Land of Enchantment
  • Registered: 2012-01-22
  • Posts: 901

Re: Chicken or the egg?

MAKE SURE YOU GIVE THE BUILDER THE CAGE RULES AND HOW NOT TO FAIL TECH.



I had to do it...Really...I had to........

If there is one area that new teams fuck up on,it's not reading-the-mother-fucking-how-not-to fail-part...

Some cage builders seem to think they know better,but just follow the fucking rule book....it's really simple

45+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)
  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Chicken or the egg?

Here's a direct link to the referenced .pdf document (v3.5_040419):

How To Not Fail Lemons Tech Inspection