1 (edited by Wesleyw 2020-02-03 04:31 PM)

Topic: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Want to send out a big thank you and apology to #44 team Landshark for a) not hitting me and 2) for causing lost time in your race.. you guys are a strong top ten team (running in 4th place at the time).

Our right rear hub / axle bearing nut busted and I went for a ride!  Your driver avoided me by beaching the shark in the sand and had to get pulled out causing you to loose multiple laps... great skill but still sucks for you.. so very sorry.

If you happen to have in car video I would love to see it!  Here is ours:

https://youtu.be/We2eBFOtfBk

Thanks!
Wes from team B&W Racing

'94 BMW E36 - mostly fast with frequent periods of sitting in the pits getting worked on

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Glad you’re ok Wes and that Landshark still got the top 4. I ran for about 30 minutes with them swapping passes back and forth from about 2-3pm on Saturday. They run clean and are fun to drive with.


They should have gotten some help on Sunday to get a podium spot after this maneuver by the #12 Ginger Racing E36 (in 2nd place):

https://youtu.be/Jt3Pkc0jjvo

There was 30 minutes left on Sunday when I got dumped by them. They never reported to the penalty box, nor did Lemons officials call them to box, even though I clearly let them know who did it. If their driver had just come by after the race and acknowledged the incident, I wouldn’t have been so angry, but they apparently didn’t have the sack to do that either.  Our car could have continued (got hit on the right rear wheel area), but I felt that I would have stayed out there just to make things more difficult for them, which wouldn’t have been a good idea. So instead of 15th we finished 20th. - AB

Super Westerfield Brothers lntegra #411

Aaron Buckley
#411 Team Super Westerfield Brothers

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Hey Wes, I was pitted with the Landshark guys this weekend and they're good friends of mine. I don't know if their GoPro lasted that long, as I recall the incident took place late in the afternoon on Sunday (~3pm IIRC). I'll text the team captain (Mike) and see if he has it. He's quite the old fart, so he doesn't really do forums or social media much. ;-)

The Pentastar whisperer

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Wes, glad that worked out ok. And yea, I was wondering what happened to Landshark.

AB - I won’t disagree that in the spirit of Lemons #12 should have self reported or at least come by and said something. But I can’t tell from the camera angle how much of their nose was inside of your fender and you shut the door on them. To your point, it did no one favors and this is supposed to be fun.  Regardless of them fighting for second, it doesn’t discount you jockeying for a spot and souring your finish.

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Bayley wrote:

Hey Wes, I was pitted with the Landshark guys this weekend and they're good friends of mine. I don't know if their GoPro lasted that long, as I recall the incident took place late in the afternoon on Sunday (~3pm IIRC). I'll text the team captain (Mike) and see if he has it. He's quite the old fart, so he doesn't really do forums or social media much. ;-)

Thank you!   We broke our left hub on Saturday put in new 1/2 shaft, hub, rotor.   Checked the right and it seems fine... and then it broke!  We are scratching our heads on why we would have this issue twice... both hubs were new about 2 years ago.

Wes

'94 BMW E36 - mostly fast with frequent periods of sitting in the pits getting worked on

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

b1mmer wrote:

They should have gotten some help on Sunday to get a podium spot after this maneuver by the #12 Ginger Racing E36 (in 2nd place):

https://youtu.be/Jt3Pkc0jjvo

There was 30 minutes left on Sunday when I got dumped by them. They never reported to the penalty box, nor did Lemons officials call them to box, even though I clearly let them know who did it. If their driver had just come by after the race and acknowledged the incident, I wouldn’t have been so angry, but they apparently didn’t have the sack to do that either.  Our car could have continued (got hit on the right rear wheel area), but I felt that I would have stayed out there just to make things more difficult for them, which wouldn’t have been a good idea. So instead of 15th we finished 20th. - AB

Super Westerfield Brothers lntegra #411

Sucks you had that contact. They should have self-reported. They should have been called-in.

That said: tt doesn't look like the driver of the camera car checked any of his/her mirrors before heading down toward the apex and having contact. No squealing brakes/tires can be heard in the video suggesting a dive-bomb by the Gingers, but that doesn't necessarily foreclose the issue. Regardless, from the looks of the video, it might be suggested that the onus of locating the other team and apologizing falls at least equally upon SWB in this instance, even notwithstanding the Lemons rule that one is at fault for any contact regardless of the circumstance. With that in mind, the sack score remains thusly tied Gingers 0 - SWB 0. Complaint about another team failing to seek remedy should not be made until one has attempted to seek remedy him or herself.

You did the right thing not going back on track if you were really that angry about it.

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

I did check my passenger mirror. I didn’t need to move my head for it. With that said, I looked all over the paddock for the car post race (including finding a Ginger Racing Team trailer with one of the 5 series in it.). I did my part.

If you pause the video just before contact, I’m parallel with the curbing about 6 inches off of it following the curbing contour when I was contacted. All of the damage was to the passenger wheel/wheel well, not my bumper. Was his plan to pass both of us while straddling the curbing?  From where I was hit, he had to have been 2 wheels in the grass already.

None of this happens if he had some patience. If I wanted to, I could have out broke the Ranchero in T11 and taken him on the outside, but with the sun, I wasn’t sure he would see me.  C’est la vie. - AB

Aaron Buckley
#411 Team Super Westerfield Brothers

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

80-90% of the blame is on the guy that dove up the inside and hit you. I would be mad too.

I have a Honda too (Accord) and our cars are tin cans compared to a lot of the stuff out there so we usually take the brunt of any contact. That's a good reason to be super conservative when passing and being passed.

I've had too many bent suspension and subframe bits from contact that BMWs or other cars would've just shrugged off.

Takata R&D :: 1993 Accord - team captain - rear drum brakes lol
GoPro 360 Heros :: BMW E28  - co-captain

9 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2020-02-07 02:02 PM)

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

No track time, just trying to learn before going on track.

With my technology, I can't see anything displayed in the mirrors from the video.

What I see:

From about :27 after the gentle right curve, it appears you're keeping to the left rear of the (Ranchero?), and, on the track I see just about the whole shadow of that vehicle to your right, and you're heading into the sun, so it's a long shadow on the track, and for a comparatively long time.

Contact is at about :41, in the curve, after your abrupt position change from: well behind and to the left of the leading vehicle to: the inside of the curve. I can't clearly tell, but it looks like prior to the apex.

So for about 14 sec. it initially appeared to me that you were leaving a lane behind the leading vehicle, perhaps for a trailing car, or one that was already there next to you, perhaps half a car length behind your front bumper, or at about your rear wheel well. I've been entertained by Lemons stories about going down the track 2-, 3-, and 4-abreast, and I'm assuming that includes corners, so that colors my understanding of this incident.

One scenario proposed is that someone unreasonably dove into that space, and I can certainly imagine that happening. _I_ wouldn't do it, but I'd be aware someone might, and I'd be pretty exasperated with someone who would.

In the initial post describing the contact, there was no story line, or description, as to where the inside vehicle _was_ prior to the contact.

You also describe your concerns because of the sun whether the vehicle ahead of you would see you if you decided to pass them.

Absent another explanation, one scenario I could propose is that a vehicle trailing on your right decided you saw them, were deliberately leaving that lane for them, and they would proceed on that basis. When they took advantage of the slowdown for the curve to gain some relative distance, your abrupt position change left them no room, and as they were trying to avoid you on the inside, they ran out of room - and mostly if not completely off the track - and decided to return to the track rather than being pushed into the barriers by the avoidance, with no impact damage to explain why they went into the barrier.

This might explain why there was no damage to your rear bumper, and only the rear-wheel area on your car.

So please help me learn this racing thought process.

When you looked in your mirrors - you said you looked in your mirrors and didn't have to turn your head to do so - where was the inside vehicle in relation to your vehicle? How long was it there? What was the rate of closure? Or, did they give up the inside position next to you and then try to get it back too late? Were they clearly behind you to start out with, and, did you have clearance when you moved to the inside; but they didn't slow, and came over the grass to move you out? I don't have enough information to understand what happened.

On the public roads. I was hit right behind the left-front wheel well making a left-hand turn, by someone who didn't maintain their lane on the inside. In this case, there were two _CLEARLY_ marked left-hand turn lanes, and my choice was drive into the curb trying to avoid the inside guy who abruptly decided to switch from the inside lane [him] to the outside lane [where I was] at the last MOMENT - 3/4 of the way through the turn, or to get as far over to the right as I could hoping he'd get back into his lane. And just to be clear - I started out ahead at the light, and was directly ahead of him at the contact. I think one more millimeter to the right and I'd have curb rash on my outside tire and wheel. His wife was very apologetic. He was also, but a little later.

I look forward to advice and more information.

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

That wasn't an abrupt position change. He went from the inside sacrifice left hander then crossed under to the left apex under the "ranchero" Looks like the other car had the same plan assuming the camera car would go High cross over.

The camera car does have its side mirrors cranked in (I guess the driver wants to make sure the rear quarter panel doesn't try anything funny.) Which means there was some closure blind spot because the panoramic center mirrors don't show relative motion well off in their corners due to the way they distort. Only trust the middle 55-60% of a panoramic mirror for closure and distance. The rest is only useful for basic positional awareness and should be correlated with a wide positioned side mirror where the inboard edge of the mirror is showing you a spot about arms length outboard of the rear corner, no closer. Especially the passenger mirror because "OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR" especially as they deviate from the center of the mirror.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Guildenstern wrote:

That wasn't an abrupt position change. ...

If the camera car's clearly ahead, I agree.

If the other car was already there beside the camera car, like with their front bumper just behind the camera car's passenger side door at the wheel well (the contact issue), I disagree. No time to back off before going off, and then, just fighting to not crash. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to learn more.

Guildenstern wrote:

... correlated with a wide positioned side mirror where the inboard edge of the mirror is showing you a spot about arms length outboard of the rear corner, no closer.

OK, like [similar to] my mirrors for driving in rush hour traffic on the Schuylkill Expressway - that's easy.

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Abrupt means sudden and Unexpected.

What the camera car did was both smooth and exactly the move you would make for a clean line. And given the striking car was not abeam the Camera car, it's everyones duty to prevent contact. Meaning as the trailing car you HAVE to always assume the car in front of you will drive the line and doesn't see you.

It would be great to see this from the other car, or a further back car, but unfortunately not everyone is very good at tagging videos on youtube.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

G: thank you. Good information, clear explanation.

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Any chance the #12 car couldn’t see you come over because it’s the end of the day and sun is right in your eyes and the esteemed tech doesn’t allow anyone to clean their windshields because it’s too dangerous to clean windshields in the hot pits and all real race cars have washer bottles?

(Sorry... the last half was probably not not needed... but it irritates me.)

I think it looks like a racing incident between a car pushing for an overall win who went for a gap that closed and a car that was also moving through traffic.  It sucks for both teams.  Usually chatting about it at the track is best.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

15 (edited by VKZ24 2020-02-10 01:20 PM)

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Any chance the #12 car couldn’t see you come over because it’s the end of the day and sun is right in your eyes and the esteemed tech doesn’t allow anyone to clean their windshields because it’s too dangerous to clean windshields in the hot pits and all real race cars have washer bottles?  (Sorry... the last half was probably not not needed... but it irritates me.)


I'm with you on cleaning the windshield thing.  That really irritates me too, and I've bitched here many times, but HQ isn't having it, so I've gone with Disney's "Frozen" theme instead.


TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I think it looks like a racing incident between a car pushing for an overall win who went for a gap that closed and a car that was also moving through traffic.  It sucks for both teams.  Usually chatting about it at the track is best.


B1mmer is my teammate, so I guess you could say I'm biased, but I think his biggest gripe is we got no acknowledgement from the #12 after the fact.  To 100% prove the #12 wasn't at fault, I'd need another video angle, but had it been me, and I punted a car almost into a wall, I would have found the guy and apologized.  Everyone screws up at some point, just be a man about it, own up to it, and move own.

BTW, you guys were really aggressive (as usual) but I keep a pretty good eye on my mirrors, and try to point you by unless I'm in a spot where both hands are needed on the wheel.  I will say I got a "Thank You" wave from your car each time, which I really appreciated.  Still no wave from the TaTas though...I know, boohoo right?

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

I agree.  If I made contact with someone I would have gone and apologized or chatted it out.   

On the other comments,  you have repeatedly griped about how aggressive we have been.  I would offer for your to watch one of the hundred YouTube vids I have up of us racing Lemons or Champ and give me some feedback on what I should do differently.  Short of driving around like it’s a parade, I’m not sure what else to do.   I have received some of the “you guys are aggressive” comments over the years and then they watch our in-car and change their minds. 

As far as waving to you when we pass, we try to do that, but it’s not always possible.   Having said that, it certainly shouldn’t be expected.   We have diced it up more than almost anyone with the TaTa’s over the years he and neither one of us will wave at each other.  Yet we chat with them all the time and we know each other well.  Also, not once would I expect a wave from anyone (RSX, AMX, Lincoln, TaTa’s) if they passed me.   We’re racing and often we’re busy with both hands.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

17 (edited by BigBird 2020-02-10 06:25 PM)

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

As far as waving to you when we pass, we try to do that, but it’s not always possible.   Having said that, it certainly shouldn’t be expected.   We have diced it up more than almost anyone with the TaTa’s over the years he and neither one of us will wave at each other.  Yet we chat with them all the time and we know each other well.  Also, not once would I expect a wave from anyone (RSX, AMX, Lincoln, TaTa’s) if they passed me.   We’re racing and often we’re busy with both hands.

Going off-topic a little here....
I have been on track in everything from the butt-ass slowest C cars,to mediocre B cars ,to some fast cars (in the right hands)...

That being said,I will point anybody by me...If you are faster (or braver)  than me,then by all means,go on around...
If I get a thank you wave,cool...If not,no harm,no foul..... We’re racing and often we’re busy with both hands.
Just my .02.....

45+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I agree.  If I made contact with someone I would have gone and apologized or chatted it out.   

On the other comments,  you have repeatedly griped about how aggressive we have been.  I would offer for your to watch one of the hundred YouTube vids I have up of us racing Lemons or Champ and give me some feedback on what I should do differently.  Short of driving around like it’s a parade, I’m not sure what else to do.   I have received some of the “you guys are aggressive” comments over the years and then they watch our in-car and change their minds. 

As far as waving to you when we pass, we try to do that, but it’s not always possible.   Having said that, it certainly shouldn’t be expected.   We have diced it up more than almost anyone with the TaTa’s over the years he and neither one of us will wave at each other.  Yet we chat with them all the time and we know each other well.  Also, not once would I expect a wave from anyone (RSX, AMX, Lincoln, TaTa’s) if they passed me.   We’re racing and often we’re busy with both hands.

I run team Glue Sticks and have raced with you at Gingerman a couple times and now Barber.  I never thought you guys or the TaTas were overly aggressive.  Your fast cars that are nearly always in contention.  While driving you should know or quickly figure out what the fast and leading cars are.  If you aren't racing them (we never are) move your ass over for the literal 2 seconds it takes them to get by.  Even give them a point by that allows you to take the corner from the angle you want.  We are much slower than the leaders and work hard to avoid on track issues so take the perspective as it is.

Team Glue Sticks
00 Firebird, 02 X-Type, 93 NX2000, 00 Mazda 626 (Sold)
2016 NJMP Heroic Fix, 2017 NJMP Near Heroic Fix except we can't drive, 2017 Thompson I Got Screwed, 2019 Pitt Heroic Fix

19 (edited by soldmystang 2020-02-11 09:22 AM)

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

"If you aren't racing them (we never are) move your ass over for the literal 2 seconds it takes them to get by. "


I'm sure I'm splitting hairs here but it is the passing cars obligation to make a clean pass.  With that said I expect the car I'm trying to pass to maintain their line and not just jump out of the way.  If we start trying to tell cars to move we add the danger of uncertainty and collisions occur.  Passing in Lemons is a challenge because invariably a slower car WILL pull into your planned route unexpectedly ..... there is no shame in a point by and they are truly appreciated when given.  I give a point by to faster cars, but if I waited for a point by from everyone I would never pass a car...

I had two situations at Barber where luck was on my side this past race.... one in the museum turn where the car I was passing was far track left until the he cleared the last left gator and concrete and just turned toward the right gator.  He did this just as I was on the right gator.... and I crested the drop in the grass to avoid contact.  Was I being "a bit aggressive" ?? Potentially.

Second was in T13 Sunday morning.  Daytona was track left, MR2 track center... and I tried to pass on the inside......  fortunately the MR2 held his line or I would have been in the flag-stand ... as it was, clearly not a wise decision on my part.  spoke with the guy in the MR2 afterwards... he had no memory of it.

It used to be that passing was easy in Lemons especially if you had HP, not so much anymore and especially if you want to run at the pointy end.  But, at the same time we have nothing for The TaTas or Lemon-aid, Ginger, Silver Bullets and won't ever unless we install a fuel cell or swap a motor.

Sound familiar to anyone????  (ie: ChumpCar)

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

Correct, Don't block, drive consistent, and where possible, point by.

They didn't get to the top of the timing sheet not knowing how to get around your slow ass safely and quickly.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Landshark.. please tell me you got this on video!

VKZ24 wrote:

BTW, you guys were really aggressive (as usual)...

I'm a just gonna leave this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPCE2tTLZQ

The Pentastar whisperer