Topic: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Hey, this is mostly because I'm bored, but there IS a 2005 Jaguar XJ moldering away not far from here, and it likely would go cheap. The problem is that the whole structure of these is aluminum. How we gonna weld the DOM cage to that? search revealed some chat about a Honda Insight, but to my knowledge the car never got built, so what say the hive mind?

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

"Evil Genius" Pagel's working on it...I'm sure some guidance would be available if you PM or email, or something like that....

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

I don't seriously intend to build this right now. So bothering JP who probably has other things on his mind, didn't come to my mind. It's more a
1. HAS it been done?
2. If not, How could it be done?

Exercise...

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

I think I pointed this out on GRM, and some people posted that you just bolt-in the plates and showed some examples.  SCCA still allows bolt-in cages as I recall.

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

As he's been posting on FB a bit more than usual lately I suspect he may not be as busy as you think.

That reminds me that my X350 has been in the shop for a few months now.  I sorta forgot about it but also dont have room for it if it comes back home.  After a top end rebuild it starts, runs for 10 seconds and then shuts off.  Both myself and the shop cant figure it out.  It's like it completes startup, then the ECU transitions into a different mode at which point it shuts off.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Stay tuned, I have an idea what’s possibly going on there. What spec x350 are we discussing? SC or NA?

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

NA

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

I had an old Saab that would do that. It turned out to be the fuel pump relay.

Fourteen time loser. You'd think I'd know better by now.

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Maverick74 wrote:

I had an old Saab that would do that. It turned out to be the fuel pump relay.

All my Saabs were of the type that used a fuel pressure regulator and returned excess fuel back to the tank.  Of course the Jag doesn't work that way.  It has a fuel pressure transducer that senses pressure and modulates the fuel pump to keep the pressure at the correct rate.  It's a returnless system.  It uses a fuel pump module to control that.  Yes, I swapped one out with a JY one to try to fix the problem.  I have the Jag IDS/SDD software but as far as I can tell returns no errors.  It did have a low voltage error even when I had a battery charger attached and also replaced the battery.  It's been so long since I worked on that thing that I forget what all else went on.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Able to scan the WHOLE car with your software? I'd interrogate BCM and such.

The low voltage fault suggests its holding onto a "false" code; I'd try a hard reboot (disconnect battery and touch cables to each other to empty every single capacitor in the car)

If the heads were off, are you absoultely certain every ground is reconnected? The grapevine tells me there is a strange one in the vicinity of the timing cover.

Last, what does it do if you unplug any and all MAF sensors? I have the weirdest suspicion that there is something (debris) in the airbox. And once it looks for the MAF signal, it will fall on its face; MAF Not needed on startup, as I understand it.

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

11

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

I talked to Pagel last week about my Insight. The summary was it has to be done by a pro shop with an invoice, and has to have bonded in spreader plates, no bolting. I've struck out on a few of the "recommended shops for aluminum car cages" so far, might just have to find a way to ship it out to him to do it. A lot of pro shops do sketchy things on steel cars, let alone something so specialized as bonding plates with epoxy and then not overheating them when you weld the tubes to it. If you're anywhere near him, just have him do it (AZ is "near" him).

12 (edited by MDG 2020-04-01 09:46 AM)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Oh I also have a daily driver X350, LWB, with supercharger. It would be the perfect Lemons car as far as I can tell. The 125" wheelbase is a big upgrade over our 90" MR2 and after removing the luxury out of it probably only weighs 3,000 pounds. Plus double-A arms like a real racecar.

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

MDG wrote:

I talked to Pagel last week about my Insight. The summary was it has to be done by a pro shop with an invoice, and has to have bonded in spreader plates, no bolting. I've struck out on a few of the "recommended shops for aluminum car cages" so far, might just have to find a way to ship it out to him to do it. A lot of pro shops do sketchy things on steel cars, let alone something so specialized as bonding plates with epoxy and then not overheating them when you weld the tubes to it. If you're anywhere near him, just have him do it (AZ is "near" him).

If I were to do a cage for an aluminum chassis, I'd build the cage first, weld the 6 points of the cage to the spreader plates last, then put panel bond adhesive in between the plates and chassis and also put in like 4 bolts per plate and a sandwich plate beneath to draw it all together to ensure a tight bond. I'd also build a bottom frame to attach the seat to the cage along some sill bars and full width transverse bars with the belt anchor points in that frame so the belted in driver travels fully with the cage. So the cage isn't just on all sides and above, but also beneath.

14 (edited by chaase 2020-04-01 12:33 PM)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Spank wrote:
MDG wrote:

I talked to Pagel last week about my Insight. The summary was it has to be done by a pro shop with an invoice, and has to have bonded in spreader plates, no bolting. I've struck out on a few of the "recommended shops for aluminum car cages" so far, might just have to find a way to ship it out to him to do it. A lot of pro shops do sketchy things on steel cars, let alone something so specialized as bonding plates with epoxy and then not overheating them when you weld the tubes to it. If you're anywhere near him, just have him do it (AZ is "near" him).

If I were to do a cage for an aluminum chassis, I'd build the cage first, weld the 6 points of the cage to the spreader plates last, then put panel bond adhesive in between the plates and chassis and also put in like 4 bolts per plate and a sandwich plate beneath to draw it all together to ensure a tight bond. I'd also build a bottom frame to attach the seat to the cage along some sill bars and full width transverse bars with the belt anchor points in that frame so the belted in driver travels fully with the cage. So the cage isn't just on all sides and above, but also beneath.

If I am reading this right,  you are suggesting making a sandwich with the aluminum body as the meat and two steel plates as the bread with panel bond on each piece of bread and then adding bolts through the whole thing. I think that is a great idea. For that setup, you may want to consider using larger spreader plates than required because the bolts take up surface area.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

chaase wrote:

If I am reading this right,  you are suggesting making a sandwich with the aluminum body as the meat and two steel plates as the bread with panel bond on each piece of bread and then adding bolts through the whole thing. I think that is a great idea. For that setup, you may want to consider using larger spreader plates than required because the bolts take up surface area.

I'm only playing "what if" here. I'm not trained in anything. So please, for the love of dog, don't anyone think I know what the hell I'm talking about..

The bottom plate of the sandwich is just to have something to pull against to make sure of a tight bond between the foot and the chassis.

I think a key component is to make sure of the seat and belt attachments independent of the chassis, and a floor structure that helps dissipate any rollover forces to an area larger than just the actual spreader plate surface.

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

I went to the NHTSA website because I was curious.

Side (or Pole) impact test data:

Year  Make   Model  Intrusion             Type
2001 Honda Insight 199 mm               Side
2003 Jaguar X-type 362 mm               Side

2000 BMW 328 I      462 mm               Pole
2006 BMW 325 I      256 mm               Side
2011 BMW 535 I      217 mm               Side
2011 BMW 535 I      375 mm               Pole

They also have much more frontal impact test data, as you might expect.

"Intrusion" is the maximum intrusion from pre-test dimension

The Honda is looking pretty good here

17 (edited by chaase 2020-04-01 01:50 PM)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Spank wrote:
chaase wrote:

If I am reading this right,  you are suggesting making a sandwich with the aluminum body as the meat and two steel plates as the bread with panel bond on each piece of bread and then adding bolts through the whole thing. I think that is a great idea. For that setup, you may want to consider using larger spreader plates than required because the bolts take up surface area.

I'm only playing "what if" here. I'm not trained in anything. So please, for the love of dog, don't anyone think I know what the hell I'm talking about..

The bottom plate of the sandwich is just to have something to pull against to make sure of a tight bond between the foot and the chassis.

I think a key component is to make sure of the seat and belt attachments independent of the chassis, and a floor structure that helps dissipate any rollover forces to an area larger than just the actual spreader plate surface.

There are lot of ways to do it. You can weld a thicker aluminum base plate to the floor, drill some pilot holes in floor and use clamps to lock the bonded pieces in place. It all depends on exactly what the goals are meant to achieve. it is also possible to weld steel to aluminum using a welder but it requires the steel to be coated with aluminum and then welded properly. Not something I would do my guess is there are people capable of doing that.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

I went to the NHTSA website because I was curious.

Side (or Pole) impact test data:

Year  Make   Model  Intrusion             Type
2001 Honda Insight 199 mm               Side
2003 Jaguar X-type 362 mm               Side

2000 BMW 328 I      462 mm               Pole
2006 BMW 325 I      256 mm               Side
2011 BMW 535 I      217 mm               Side
2011 BMW 535 I      375 mm               Pole

They also have much more frontal impact test data, as you might expect.

"Intrusion" is the maximum intrusion from pre-test dimension

The Honda is looking pretty good here


The Honda is. Do note that I wasn't referring to the X type Jaguar as a possible build in the orig post; I was talking about the XJ-8, aka the X350 body style. Big car made of aluminum, not smallish car made of steel, like the X type you posted above.

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: Anyone get an aluminum car OKd by tech?

Didn't know that about the Jaguar model, thanks.

Also, they had few examples for several manufacturers /years, so I took what they offered for Jaguar.

For example, early Lexus had little test data, and none for my SC400.

I was trying to get a sampling of vehicles which might be familiar to builders here, as a method of comparison of the structural strength.

And so many listings of BMW, that had to be my second path of research.