Topic: Seat back brace

This might seem like a strange question, but here goes:
Suppose the main hoop of the rollcage was too far back to appropriately brace the seat-back.  Could you add an extra vertical bar behind the driver's seat to accomplish this?  If there were another extra bar running horizontally, front to back over the drivers head, and another running horizontally left to right behind the driver's butt, this would give you sturdy mounting points at both ends of the vertical bar, and tie it into the rest of the cage.
The reason I'm contemplating this is that what i thought would be the ideal location for the main hoop turns out to be blocked by the stock fuel filler neck, which I hoped to keep.

Re: Seat back brace

Like this? http://store.24hoursoflemons.com/produc … -brace.htm
Yes smile

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Seat back brace

No, vertical. Like a stripper pole centered behind the driver seat, welded to an extra floor bar at bottom and an extra roof bar at top

Re: Seat back brace

King 1 wrote:

If there were another extra bar running horizontally, front to back over the drivers head, and another running horizontally left to right behind the driver's butt, this would give you sturdy mounting points at both ends of the vertical bar, and tie it into the rest of the cage.

It might be fine (although worth checking with John Pagel), but that's a lot of extra tubing. We went with a simple "T" arrangement coming forward from the shoulder harness bar, with the forward horizontal section slightly wider than the back of the seat. The harness itself is attached to the main (rear) harness bar. The cost was negligible, since it just used up a couple of scrap lengths of rollcage tubing, and it has never been questioned at tech.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49807021768_92a0112593_z.jpg

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Seat back brace

mharrell wrote:

It might be fine (although worth checking with John Pagel), but that's a lot of extra tubing. We went with a simple "T" arrangement coming forward from the shoulder harness bar, with the forward horizontal section slightly wider than the back of the seat. The harness itself is attached to the main (rear) harness bar. The cost was negligible, since it just used up a couple of scrap lengths of rollcage tubing, and it has never been questioned at tech.

I didn't realize it was this simple!  Could you then theoretically attach the harness to the extension?
The reason I ask, my plan was to use a ford ranger with the main hoop positioned where a pickup typically has a roll bar, towards the front in the bed.  then have the front hoop inside the cab like normal Lemons with all the door and roof bars coming thru strategic holes in the back of the cab.  So a seat brace could also come thru a hole, but I wouldn't want to run harness straps that way.

Re: Seat back brace

King 1 wrote:
mharrell wrote:

It might be fine (although worth checking with John Pagel), but that's a lot of extra tubing. We went with a simple "T" arrangement coming forward from the shoulder harness bar, with the forward horizontal section slightly wider than the back of the seat. The harness itself is attached to the main (rear) harness bar. The cost was negligible, since it just used up a couple of scrap lengths of rollcage tubing, and it has never been questioned at tech.

I didn't realize it was this simple!  Could you then theoretically attach the harness to the extension?
The reason I ask, my plan was to use a ford ranger with the main hoop positioned where a pickup typically has a roll bar, towards the front in the bed.  then have the front hoop inside the cab like normal Lemons with all the door and roof bars coming thru strategic holes in the back of the cab.  So a seat brace could also come thru a hole, but I wouldn't want to run harness straps that way.

I

I don't think that would pass  tech if you went with a "T" style as pictured.  It might if you did it with two support tubes to the harness bar at both ends of the seat back support brace.  But run it by the  John P. first.
t

7 (edited by mharrell 2020-04-22 08:31 PM)

Re: Seat back brace

jimbbski wrote:
King 1 wrote:

Could you then theoretically attach the harness to the extension?

I don't think that would pass  tech if you went with a "T" style as pictured.  It might if you did it with two support tubes to the harness bar at both ends of the seat back support brace.  But run it by the  John P. first.

I agree; I wouldn't put the harness on it. I think I've seen harnesses mounted to a wide,shallow, forward-facing hoop, which is essentially what jimbbski is describing except with bends at each end instead of separate tubes, but I'd check with Pagel before proceeding. Either a hoop or the use of two support tubes would be a more elegant solution than our "T" anyway, even just as a back brace.

Edit:  One other consideration is that if you anticipate enough range in size of drivers that you need an adjustable brace, I'd say just buy one as suggested by Brett85p, above. I don't imagine it's worth the time and money to make your own that would be good enough to satisfy tech, then still have to argue with tech that your homebrew solution is, in fact, good enough. In your particular case that still wouldn't address your harness question, though.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Seat back brace

The t-bar style can also be used to make an adjustable brace. Likely the two welded bar style.

That guy

Re: Seat back brace

KIng,
If you are running a Ranger will your seat even be 6" from the back wall of the cab?

3.F.1.c Seats Without Seatback Braces. If a seatback brace is not used, a strong,
seat width element such as a shoulder-harness bar must be located within six inches
of the seatback to prevent the seat from failing rearward.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Seat back brace

DelinquentRacer wrote:

KIng,
If you are running a Ranger will your seat even be 6" from the back wall of the cab?

3.F.1.c Seats Without Seatback Braces. If a seatback brace is not used, a strong,
seat width element such as a shoulder-harness bar must be located within six inches
of the seatback to prevent the seat from failing rearward.

Well I feel like a bit of a dumbass now.  I was thinking about this all wrong.  Yes of course the seat will be within six inches of the back wall of the cab. 

The rules don't appear to say anything about how far from the driver the main hoop can be.  I feel like I would get some heat from the judges if the main hoop was a full foot behind the back of the cab but maybe that's fine?

The more I look at things though, I think I might be able to fit a fully internal roll cage after all.  The factory bench seat sits at least 4 inches above the top of the trans tunnel so there's plenty of room to mount a racing seat in a lower position without having to squeeze to the left or anything.  The problem will be that the seat will have to be forward of the cab wall far enough to fit the bars behind it and this eats up precious leg room.  Not sure how close to the pedals is too close.  I guess if you can operate the clutch without hitting your knee on the steering wheel it's good enough, right?

Re: Seat back brace

Full disclosure: Novice, no experience.

Are you dead-set on building the Ranger? Is that the only vehicle you'd consider building? Because there are plenty of inexpensive vehicles available, and likely a lot more coming in the near future.

I don't think an NBA big man could safely race a Prius based on internal clearance issues. But that's just a guess. If the Ranger is too tight for you, perhaps another choice?

Driver's helmet clearance from the cage, and padding requirements, is addressed in the text of the Rules.

Several users here [with a lot of experience building Lemons cars] have suggested to place the seat _before_ building the cage. I have adopted that when planning on a design for a cage. The reasons given in several previous posts and threads are compellingly logical.

There are many threads here about building cages and cars which have a ton of information.

Re: Seat back brace

King 1 wrote:

...The problem will be that the seat will have to be forward of the cab wall far enough to fit the bars behind it and this eats up precious leg room.

It's unlikely that the seat will extend into the corner of the cab.
You'll likely be using 1.75 dia. tubing so you'll need about 3" of space in the corner of the cab.
If you keep the main hoop as tidy as possible I doubt you'll have to give up any space for the seat.
Get you seat set first and you should be fine. BTW, adapt some factory sliders for the seat.
Aftermarket sliders are not very good, and definitely haven't been over-engineered for safety.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Seat back brace

With out knowing if this is Lemons legal.  What about installing the main hoop outside of the cab just behind the back wall? You would have to run the tubes that connect to the main hoop through the cab sheet metal,  such as the halo bar but unless I'm totally wrong why would this not work?

The other issue with a vehicle like a Ranger is that it is a "body on frame". You will have to construct outriggers off the frame so that the tubes connect to something other then the cab floor.

Re: Seat back brace

jimbbski wrote:

With out knowing if this is Lemons legal.  What about installing the main hoop outside of the cab just behind the back wall? You would have to run the tubes that connect to the main hoop through the cab sheet metal,  such as the halo bar but unless I'm totally wrong why would this not work?

This was my original plan, yes.  The problem is that the fuel filler neck/door are right about where the main hoop would go in this scenario, and I really don't want to mess with a fuel cell if I can avoid it.  I still think that design might be possible if I remove some of the forward bed wall and slip the main hoop in between the cab and the fuel filler tube, but I think for the sake of simplicity I'm just going to cram it all in the cab.  I'm pretty sure there'll be enough room.  I've started contemplating how I can shorten the steering column because as the seat comes forward the steering wheel kinda gets up in your face.  But even if that doesn't work  out I think it will be fine.  if driver comfort was my main concern I'd have bought a Crown Vic or something.

Re: Seat back brace

I was wondering where the backstays would go, so I searched here for "pickup", and found something with pictures which probably answers many questions