1 (edited by tdark_hart 2020-07-26 06:33 AM)

Topic: body and home made parts.

Sorry if these are not so intelligent questions. I read the rules on vehicle body work, and it said you must have fenders and an OE hood. I see in pictures a lot of not so OE hoods,  Does any one know if trailer fenders would count?  A local racer gave me 2 sets of wrinkled IMCA modified body panels. would a sheet metal body and hood past inspection if it was mounted well? I am using a rollover and have a full frame chassis but no body. These panels would work great if they would be with in the rules.

Also I fab part in my home shop. I would like to build a torque arm and tube a- arms. Would they add the price these parts sell for new or the price of the metal I used?

Thank you,
Brian.

Re: body and home made parts.

The biggest issue is going to be whether or not your car appears likely to shed parts on its own as it laps the track. Quality work should pass, backyard hack jobs probably won't.

Don't worry about costs if you are fab'ing it yourself, especially if you are building a rollover. The costs of your time are not included; the cost of a shop doing it for you is.  You may want to take some photos along the way to document your build showing that you did the work.  The judges generally like backyard engineering solutions that are solidly done, and if you bring something really creative or unusual they don't question the cost (or even better - creative and unusual: look up the Rolls with the Viper engine). Speedycop has run a popup camper body wrapped around a small car a few times, and an airplane and a helicopter bodied car, and the famous upside down Camaro.  Mad fab skills + wild imagination = legendary Lemons status.

Sounds like you have the skills needed.  Your odds of the "OEM hood" being ignored/waived will improve with a good theme.  If you turned the bent IMCA panels into a Porsche 917/30 or a Batmobile replica, you'd sail through - assuming high quality fab work.

Have fun!

Re: body and home made parts.

Please do yourself a favor and check with John Pagel before you begin your build.  OEM fenders and hood are part of the crash structure of many cars and that is why they want them.  You can find his email under the 'Contact' heading at the top of the page.

A good theme will not satisfy the tech inspection, just the BS inspection.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: body and home made parts.

Trailer fenders have been used quite a bit by folks, so you should be good to go there to use them to supplement the protection you are offering your wheels.

Often times, if you leave the inner fenders and unibody structure alone, you're ok. As you and others said, putting a different skin on cars is done frequently and frequently receives a lot of praise.

And, while it is tough to argue against the recommendation to run your ideas by the chief tech inspector, John Pagel, his mantra is usually, "Do a good job. Just do a good job. I can say 'ok' to your idea, but until I see how it's done, how you executed it, I won't know. So just do a good job and don't be stupid"

Re: body and home made parts.

rb92673 wrote:

Please do yourself a favor and check with John Pagel before you begin your build.  OEM fenders and hood are part of the crash structure of many cars and that is why they want them.  You can find his email under the 'Contact' heading at the top of the page.

A good theme will not satisfy the tech inspection, just the BS inspection.

a lot of cars (ours included) have totally gutted hoods/doors,...and so on. It is no value as a "crash structure". I would think that as long as the car is done well,  it should pass, but it never hurts to check 1st. The cage is the number 1 thing to get right.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: body and home made parts.

Mr.Yuck wrote:
rb92673 wrote:

Please do yourself a favor and check with John Pagel before you begin your build.  OEM fenders and hood are part of the crash structure of many cars and that is why they want them.  You can find his email under the 'Contact' heading at the top of the page.

A good theme will not satisfy the tech inspection, just the BS inspection.

a lot of cars (ours included) have totally gutted hoods/doors,...and so on. It is no value as a "crash structure". I would think that as long as the car is done well,  it should pass, but it never hurts to check 1st. The cage is the number 1 thing to get right.

I only recommended talking to Pagel because he stated "I am using a rollover and have a full frame chassis but no body." and I don't really know what that means.  I am more risk adverse than Spank, so I would want to know if the car I chose would have a high likely hood of passing tech before I started a build.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: body and home made parts.

Thank you for the advise guys. this was the ruling.

"John Pagel <pagel@24hoursoflemons.com>
Sun 7/26/2020 12:52 PM
Nope. OE body means just that. OE.   The IMCA body and separate fenders are are a no go."

Time to do more scrounging for a shell...


..

Re: body and home made parts.

tdark_hart wrote:

Thank you for the advise guys. this was the ruling.

"John Pagel <pagel@24hoursoflemons.com>
Sun 7/26/2020 12:52 PM
Nope. OE body means just that. OE.   The IMCA body and separate fenders are are a no go."

Time to do more scrounging for a shell...


..

if you put some kind of odd ball shell on the thing you'll be the hero of the weekend.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: body and home made parts.

Reading i hard

I read your original post as meaning you had a regular car that was a rollover and you wanted to put IMSA panels on the normal street car that you were going to prep for Lemons...

And I'll be honest: I don't really know what IMSA panels means other than maybe fiberglass skins for aero and lightness...

But not that I'm looking again-- perhaps what you mean by "full frame car" is one that is a former IMSA or circle track car that's a tubechassis and you want to put different body work on it. If that's the scenario, HQ has made it oh-so-very-clear to me that stuff like this does not work under any circumstance

https://www.medievalchassis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Hardcore-Hobby-1.jpg


Unless of course your name is Fish and you've built this

https://www.hotrod.com/uploads/sites/21/2011/08/hrdp-1109-10-1927-ford-model-t-GT-race-car.jpg?fit=around%7C875:492

Re: body and home made parts.

Spank wrote:

Unless of course your name is Fish and you've built this

As this is specifically the section for newcomers it's worth stating explicitly that Fish's Model T GT (no longer actually owned by Fish) does not comply with the rules and is only allowed to compete because of an individual waiver granted years ago that, according to Jay Lamm, will never be extended to any other car. Yes, I've heard different stories from several proponents and opponents of the T GT; I'm just going by what I got from Jay. It's his series.

Cage elements may not extend rearward beyond the rear edge of the back tires nor forward beyond the centers of the front wheels. This disqualifies quite a few purpose-built race cars from other series, even if they "look like" production cars. Lemons instead wants actual production cars. I'm not sure what tdark_hart means by "full frame chassis" either but if this is a tube chassis from a race car, it won't work for Lemons. As always, though, check with John Pagel.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: body and home made parts.

mharrell wrote:
Spank wrote:

Unless of course your name is Fish and you've built this

As this is specifically the section for newcomers it's worth stating explicitly that Fish's Model T GT (no longer actually owned by Fish) does not comply with the rules and is only allowed to compete because of an individual waiver granted years ago that, according to Jay Lamm, will never be extended to any other car. Yes, I've heard different stories from several proponents and opponents of the T GT; I'm just going by what I got from Jay. It's his series.

Cage elements may not extend rearward beyond the rear edge of the back tires nor forward beyond the centers of the front wheels. This disqualifies quite a few purpose-built race cars from other series, even if they "look like" production cars. Lemons instead wants actual production cars. I'm not sure what tdark_hart means by "full frame chassis" either but if this is a tube chassis from a race car, it won't work for Lemons. As always, though, check with John Pagel.



And yet I keep seeing cars aloud to race with tube strut towers and cage elements in the engine bay.

959 Toyota Tercel   6x Lemons loser

New England Area roll cages send me an email I'm in Central MA

Re: body and home made parts.

NOPANTSDOUGIE wrote:
mharrell wrote:
Spank wrote:

Unless of course your name is Fish and you've built this

As this is specifically the section for newcomers it's worth stating explicitly that Fish's Model T GT (no longer actually owned by Fish) does not comply with the rules and is only allowed to compete because of an individual waiver granted years ago that, according to Jay Lamm, will never be extended to any other car. Yes, I've heard different stories from several proponents and opponents of the T GT; I'm just going by what I got from Jay. It's his series.

Cage elements may not extend rearward beyond the rear edge of the back tires nor forward beyond the centers of the front wheels. This disqualifies quite a few purpose-built race cars from other series, even if they "look like" production cars. Lemons instead wants actual production cars. I'm not sure what tdark_hart means by "full frame chassis" either but if this is a tube chassis from a race car, it won't work for Lemons. As always, though, check with John Pagel.



And yet I keep seeing cars aloud to race with tube strut towers and cage elements in the engine bay.

You are allowed to have cage elements in the engine bay. The rule is that the cage cannot extend beyond the center of the front wheels, i.e. you can tie your front strut towers into the cage. We haven't done this yet, but are considering it, and specifically asked John Pagel in person about it and he said it was just fine.

Sorry For Party Racing! - 1985 Pontiac Firebird - Car #35

A race car exists only in two states: broken or in the process of becoming that way.

Re: body and home made parts.

piper.gras wrote:
NOPANTSDOUGIE wrote:
mharrell wrote:

As this is specifically the section for newcomers it's worth stating explicitly that Fish's Model T GT (no longer actually owned by Fish) does not comply with the rules and is only allowed to compete because of an individual waiver granted years ago that, according to Jay Lamm, will never be extended to any other car. Yes, I've heard different stories from several proponents and opponents of the T GT; I'm just going by what I got from Jay. It's his series.

Cage elements may not extend rearward beyond the rear edge of the back tires nor forward beyond the centers of the front wheels. This disqualifies quite a few purpose-built race cars from other series, even if they "look like" production cars. Lemons instead wants actual production cars. I'm not sure what tdark_hart means by "full frame chassis" either but if this is a tube chassis from a race car, it won't work for Lemons. As always, though, check with John Pagel.



And yet I keep seeing cars aloud to race with tube strut towers and cage elements in the engine bay.

You are allowed to have cage elements in the engine bay. The rule is that the cage cannot extend beyond the center of the front wheels, i.e. you can tie your front strut towers into the cage. We haven't done this yet, but are considering it, and specifically asked John Pagel in person about it and he said it was just fine.

Because you know what a Lemons car needs more of? Hassle getting to the engine.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: body and home made parts.

Thanks for the input.
Buy roll over, I meant  the running crown vic I bought for 100 bucks had been rolled on its roof in a ditch. I stripped it down and sold or traded everything I could. Even traded the engine and trans for a running 305 Chevy.
I'll come up with another body of some kind.
I was asking about the old sheet aluminum body because I have it, it would look cool, and it would be lite. I just have to go hunting farm fields again.

I have read the rules over and over and over, Have you guys ran into any questionable gray areas in the rules you were penalized for or had to make changes?

Re: body and home made parts.

tdark_hart wrote:

Thanks for the input.
I have read the rules over and over and over, Have you guys ran into any questionable gray areas in the rules you were penalized for or had to make changes?

Well, its hard for me to figure out exactly what you are up to but your question involves 2 separate and unrelated areas.  Penalties come in BS inspection after the safety inspection.  Playing outside the box may or may not result in penalty laps.  However, playing outside the box may result in the car failing safety and making moot any discussion of penalties.  And yes, several cars have shown up cold without prior approval of John Pagel and never turned a wheel.  At that point you are out your entry fee, your time and money, plus likely pissed off teammates.  And I get the feeling that you are playing around in an area where getting sent home is a strong possibility.  Contact John Pagel with your exact plans before picking up the welder.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: body and home made parts.

I am not trying to beat the rules, just making sure I stay within them.  As far as the car build goes, I like making my own parts when I can. Over the years I have fabricated in my opinion good cool parts. I like the Lemons ideal of using unwanted (junk) parts to make the best race car you can. I think the big ford full frame and suspension is a good strong design. It should hold up well against some rough use. It also has rack and pinion, good brakes, and there are a ton of salvage parts. With such a long wheel base it will be stable at speed and I can move the engine back a foot or more.  I am using a sbc for the same reason. Pop a chevy engine and look out back of any farmers field and your likely to find another one for 100 bucks. Need a gasket or water pump, they are dirt cheap and every where. Now I need to find a small light body to cover it. I think you mix safety with light weigh (which I am not), reliable, powerful, and good handling you have  the formula for a race car.

I really want to compete in a few Lemons races next year, but I also want to use it at local track days. I am getting to old to keep falling off a motorcycle, so a cage now sounds good.  I have more time and tools than money, so the extra work to mix  and make parts to get a cool car or truck to get some track time works.

Re: body and home made parts.

<sigh>.  I apparently have not stressed enough the need to run your plan by John Pagel prior to cutting, procuring or buying anything.  I used to be amused at wandering the paddock on Friday night with drink in hand watching rookies feverishly (and sometimes hopelessly) attempting to modify their cars to pass tech.  Now it just saddens me.  Your choice how you want to go with this, ask forgiveness or ask permission.  Only one of them works.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: body and home made parts.

tdark_hart wrote:

Thanks for the input.
Buy roll over, I meant  the running crown vic I bought for 100 bucks had been rolled on its roof in a ditch. I stripped it down and sold or traded everything I could. Even traded the engine and trans for a running 305 Chevy.
I'll come up with another body of some kind.
I was asking about the old sheet aluminum body because I have it, it would look cool, and it would be lite. I just have to go hunting farm fields again.

I have read the rules over and over and over, Have you guys ran into any questionable gray areas in the rules you were penalized for or had to make changes?


Is the roof all that is damaged? If so just cut it off and build a windshield.  We run a 88 Firebird w/ a 305. Runs good, just make sure you clean up the oil returns. What trans? We started with a 700r4. it was ok, but even with a Valve body modification and work it never seemed to be in the right gear. We swapped in a T5 and the difference is night and day. Since it is Ford chassis, and GM motor you should use a Mopar shell and pee off everybody...except the judges.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: body and home made parts.

I have a t5 from an s10 to use. The vic was pretty mangled up. The hood, drivers side doors, grill, and divers front fender were the only body parts that were saveable.

20 (edited by Spank 2020-08-03 04:37 PM)

Re: body and home made parts.

To tempt you with what is possible:

This is a Camero [sic]

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Class-A-2.jpg


THIS is the same Camero [sic] and how it was raced for quite some time before becoming what you see above.

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Class-A-3.jpg

The team proved themselves to be excellent fabricators, got a good reputation with the series organizers, and involved John Pagel with their build every step of the way.



This is a BMW Z3
http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Class-A-1.jpg

This is the same BMW Z3

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Class-A-6.jpg

The team proved themselves to be excellent Lemons participants who "Get it" and paid their dues by racing a dodge daytona in multiple events and got a good reputation with the series organizers, and then switched to the Z3, raced it as a Z3 at first, and then involved John Pagel with their build transformation plans and came up with the AMX body for it.


Seeing a pattern here?



This is an Austin Mini Moke.

https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Spank-Mini-Moke-2040x1360-1.jpg

This is the very same Mini Moke

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ApolloMoke-before.jpg

The team proved themselves to be issue-prone, always late for tech, constantly forgetting to bring their transponder necessitating their groveling for a late-substitute from Roland, and generally earning the eyerolls and ire of the series organizers, officials, staff, and hangers on. Each time it showed up to a race, the team running it was subjected to a litany of threats at tech inspection and warnings of "imminent death" always being a part of the discussion. Fellow competitors even doled out the phrase "You got Moked" to cars that got stuck behind it on track at the most inopportune moments. It may hold the record for the "most entry fees paid for the least laps turned", which may be the only reason it was ever allowed on track-- It was a clear cash grab by the organizers knowing full well it would never turn enough laps on track over a weekend to be much of a hazard on the racing surface.

Don't build "a Moke".

(In all honesty, the Moke is something that Jay Lamm himself has said is one of the cars that makes him lose sleep at night and he reserves the right to pull it off the track at any time and for any reason with zero refunds. It is more or less retired from competition)

Re: body and home made parts.

Spank, that's why you're an educator and I'm not.

I will grade it for spelling, though. A Chevy F Body... Is a CAMARO. No "E" in that name. It's amazing how far that misspelling has traveled into use.

You did explain why, say, rebodying a full size full frame Ford with pieces of 1950 Plymouth may be acceptable, where other materials are not. I couldn't get there, so I tried to avoid weighing in.

If it was me, with a rolled Vic, I'd go find a Vic body (not so hard, people put the frames under F100s all the time) and change out the part that is causing you and Tech so much discord...

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: body and home made parts.

Or......... https://www.motor1.com/news/185184/gene … -victoria/

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: body and home made parts.

tdark_hart wrote:

I have a t5 from an s10 to use. The vic was pretty mangled up. The hood, drivers side doors, grill, and divers front fender were the only body parts that were saveable.

is a T5 from a V6 the same as one from a V8?

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: body and home made parts.

Spank wrote:

To tempt you with what is possible:

This is a Camero

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Class-A-2.jpg


THIS is the same Camero and how it was raced for quite some time before becoming what you see above.

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Class-A-3.jpg

The team proved themselves to be excellent fabricators, got a good reputation with the series organizers, and involved John Pagel with their build every step of the way.



This is a BMW Z3
http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Class-A-1.jpg

This is the same BMW Z3

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Class-A-6.jpg

The team proved themselves to be excellent Lemons participants who "Get it" and paid their dues by racing a dodge daytona in multiple events and got a good reputation with the series organizers, and then switched to the Z3, raced it as a Z3 at first, and then involved John Pagel with their build transformation plans and came up with the AMX body for it.


Seeing a pattern here?



This is an Austin Mini Moke.

https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Spank-Mini-Moke-2040x1360-1.jpg

This is the very same Mini Moke

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ApolloMoke-before.jpg

The team proved themselves to be issue-prone, always late for tech, constantly forgetting to bring their transponder necessitating their groveling for a late-substitute from Roland, and generally earning the eyerolls and ire of the series organizers, officials, staff, and hangers on. Each time it showed up to a race, the team running it was subjected to a litany of threats at tech inspection and warnings of "imminent death" always being a part of the discussion. Fellow competitors even doled out the phrase "You got Moked" to cars that got stuck behind it on track at the most inopportune moments. It may hold the record for the "most entry fees paid for the least laps turned", which may be the only reason it was ever allowed on track-- It was a clear cash grab by the organizers knowing full well it would never turn enough laps on track over a weekend to be much of a hazard on the racing surface.

Don't build "a Moke".

(In all honesty, the Moke is something that Jay Lamm himself has said is one of the cars that makes him lose sleep at night and he reserves the right to pull it off the track at any time and for any reason with zero refunds. It is more or less retired from competition)

that AMC is freakin' sweet.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: body and home made parts.

Spank wrote:

It [the Moke] is more or less retired from competition

How close is it to street-legal? It would be an entertaining addition to a rally.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally