Topic: Racing Truck without a Bed?

If I completely removed the bed on my s10 but put trailer fenders around the wheels, would it pass tech?  It would not be OE fenders but they are fenders that surround the front, top, and aft part of the wheel like the stock wheel well.  I wanted to do some crazy aerodynamic stuff where the bed was instead.  Thanks!

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Guessing you want to do something like this.  So yes, been done.

http://www.roadkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Roadkill_Apex_Toyotar0009.jpg

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

That should be a "Yes, but..."

Check with Pagel. Since that truck has run (in that configuration) the rules have been reworded and OEM crash structure requirements added. There have been calls for some sort of rear-mounted energy-absorbing on other pickup trucks since then.

So Yes, you can run with trailer fenders, but... check with Pagel to see what else you may need back there to prevent a car from running up the rails and into your cab.

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

I don't see why not. We have raced a few PU's w/o beds in Lemons. Most use trailer type fenders.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

I asked Pagel and he said, "The bed is part of the crush structure, keep it."

However in the rules it states:

3.D.2 OE Crush Structures. Modifications that reduce the size and/or effectiveness of OE crush structures — including but not limited to shortening or removing frame rails or unibody structures outside the wheelbase — are discouraged in the strongest possible terms. Cars with compromised OE crush structures are exceedingly likely to fail tech.

A truck is not a unibody structure and I was not going to change the frame.  I think it could pass tech, especially if I added a full rear end collision prevention system.  Thoughts?

6 (edited by piper.gras 2020-08-05 10:54 AM)

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Disregard advice from Pagel at your own peril. Doing so will put you in a position where you are extremely likely to fail tech. At the end of the day he's the one who gets to say whether or not you're allowed on track with whatever you build. If he tells you not to do something, then you do it anyway, and he's there tech'ing your truck, it's probably not going to go your way.

Sorry For Party Racing! - 1985 Pontiac Firebird - Car #35

A race car exists only in two states: broken or in the process of becoming that way.

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

dhharmuth wrote:

I asked Pagel and he said, "The bed is part of the crush structure, keep it."

However in the rules it states:

3.D.2 OE Crush Structures. Modifications that reduce the size and/or effectiveness of OE crush structures — including but not limited to shortening or removing frame rails or unibody structures outside the wheelbase — are discouraged in the strongest possible terms. Cars with compromised OE crush structures are exceedingly likely to fail tech.

A truck is not a unibody structure and I was not going to change the frame.  I think it could pass tech, especially if I added a full rear end collision prevention system.  Thoughts?

You are not going to have a problem. As mentioned there have been several PU w/ the bed removed to suit their "theme"

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

The wording in the rules have changed since those bed less race trucks have participated.

Pagel is the guy to pass/fail your safety inspection.

Trying to find a loophole, when you have the answer from the man himself is foolish.


Also, your nit picking was based on old trucks that ran before the rules changed.

Taking out the exact thing the new rules say not to take out is probably a good way to go from race car owner to spectator.

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

I want to believe you aren't suggesting to explain the rules to Pagel.......
It is not in your best interests to attempt to go around him on a direct answer to your question!
As a part time judge, I can tell you Pagel is the last word on anything safety. (He has parked me and I work with him sometimes)
A word of caution......   
Manny

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

dhharmuth wrote:

A truck is not a unibody structure and I was not going to change the frame.  I think it could pass tech, especially if I added a full rear end collision prevention system.  Thoughts?

The answer lies within two other parts of 3.D.2:

3.D.2 OE Crush Structures. Modifications that reduce the size and/or effectiveness of OE crush structures — including but not limited to shortening or removing frame rails or unibody structures outside the wheelbase — are discouraged in the strongest possible terms. Cars with compromised OE crush structures are exceedingly likely to fail tech. Non-OE replacement crush structures are not an acceptable substitute; you and your stick welder ain’t NHTSA.

If Pagel's interpretation of the current rule is that the bed is part of the crush structure, then the bed is part of the crush structure.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

11 (edited by bobnowoc 2020-08-05 03:15 PM)

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

And the lord layeth down the 11th commandment from on high to his servant, Saint Pagel and He sayth "The bed is part of the crush structure, keep it."

Spank 3:16

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

12 (edited by Mr.Yuck 2020-08-05 03:32 PM)

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

I find the entire "crush structure"  thing silly. yes I get that you shouldn't mess with the factory frame or uni-body. But a lot of the cars have gutted hoods, doors, trunks..the roofs are nothing but sheet metal. So why would it matter if a full frame PU takes the bed off?

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Really?

You cant see a reason crappy 25 year old, unwanted $500 vehicles pushed to their break down point for 8+hours built by a couple of rednecks with no automotive experience and driven by 20 year old college students on a hair pin track might need crush structures?

I can think of a few

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

14 (edited by bobnowoc 2020-08-05 05:22 PM)

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

https://youtu.be/EDVwSNDfsqU

https://youtu.be/4rRqRKC0nG8

https://youtu.be/838hOUNdycc

And dont forget https://youtu.be/49bU5HCNobo



Hey.  The truth is you can build anything you want.  .....
And Pagel can fail anything he wants

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

bobnowoc wrote:

Really?

You cant see a reason crappy 25 year old, unwanted $500 vehicles pushed to their break down point for 8+hours built by a couple of rednecks with no automotive experience and driven by 20 year old college students on a hair pin track might need crush structures?

I can think of a few


the bed of a pick up truck isn't going to stop some sort of catastrophic event. You have a huge ash cage for that.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

16 (edited by bobnowoc 2020-08-05 06:48 PM)

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Crush zones are for all the vehicles in an impact. Not just the pickup truck in question.  And not just catastrophic hits.  They help in fender benders too.


Wait a second.... are you intentionally trying to get a rise out of me?

I just realized...
You played me.
I know You cant really be this clueless.

Playing the fool, in order to make me look foolish.
Well done Yuck.

Pretty funny.
You got me.

See you on the track.
Bob


The answer is always the same.

Wanna do a crazy build? Ask Pagel then do it his way

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

bobnowoc wrote:

https://youtu.be/EDVwSNDfsqU

https://youtu.be/4rRqRKC0nG8

https://youtu.be/838hOUNdycc

And dont forget https://youtu.be/49bU5HCNobo



Hey.  The truth is you can build anything you want.  .....
And Pagel can fail anything he wants

I think THIS is the most relevant video to post with regards to Should a truck have a bed on it or not...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX0kZGQJmnA

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Thank you everyone for your responses.  I think I'll end up keeping the bed.  I really wanted to get rid of it to lose weight and make some money back on the purchase price. However, I really don't want to fail tech.  I brought up the rule definition only to get community feedback on the likeliness to pass tech because Pagel is god.  I thought I might have some leeway from prescient.

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

dhharmuth wrote:

Thank you everyone for your responses.  I think I'll end up keeping the bed.  I really wanted to get rid of it to lose weight and make some money back on the purchase price. However, I really don't want to fail tech.  I brought up the rule definition only to get community feedback on the likeliness to pass tech because Pagel is god.  I thought I might have some leeway from prescient.

If they fail your bedless truck then all the others need to go find a bed before they race again. I guess you could gut the entire floor out to save some weight.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Mr.Yuck wrote:

I guess you could gut the entire floor out to save some weight.

If no-bed fails, removing the bed floor is a fail too.

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Removing weight from the back of an already highly front biased vehicle probably isn't going to do you any handling favors anyway. Keep the bed, and the traction that comes with it.

Sorry For Party Racing! - 1985 Pontiac Firebird - Car #35

A race car exists only in two states: broken or in the process of becoming that way.

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

piper.gras wrote:

Removing weight from the back of an already highly front biased vehicle probably isn't going to do you any handling favors anyway. Keep the bed, and the traction that comes with it.

I had plate steel that I was going to bolt and weld to the chassis just so it wouldn't go anywhere.  I really wanted to get rid of the bed for money first and foremost but to improve aerodynamics secondly.  I paid more than $500 for the truck and thought I could get money back because the bed is brand new.

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

dhharmuth wrote:
piper.gras wrote:

Removing weight from the back of an already highly front biased vehicle probably isn't going to do you any handling favors anyway. Keep the bed, and the traction that comes with it.

I had plate steel that I was going to bolt and weld to the chassis just so it wouldn't go anywhere.  I really wanted to get rid of the bed for money first and foremost but to improve aerodynamics secondly.  I paid more than $500 for the truck and thought I could get money back because the bed is brand new.

You could do what I did with the Prius when I stripped it and sold off the good parts: Require that the buyer of the good panels give you their old beat-up parts as a "core" and sell them the nice one at a discount. Some $ is better than no $, and you'll still have a bed to bolt on!

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

Mr.Yuck wrote:

If they fail your bedless truck then all the others need to go find a bed before they race again. I guess you could gut the entire floor out to save some weight.

There are plenty of cars that have been around a long time where the rules have changed yet they have been granted grandfathered exemptions for one thing or another.  At the point where they don't want to see it anymore or want changes before it's next race, they'll let you know.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Racing Truck without a Bed?

If the bed is in that good of shape then try to source a used one that's off the same model vehicle. It can be rusty and/or dented and that should make it cheaper!  Then sell your "Good" one and deduct the difference from the amount you spent.
The rules allow you to do this. It's the same as if you replaced a door or hood. It's legal.