• Registered: 2020-08-13
  • Posts: 14

Topic: First Time Racer starting build!

Found Lemons via someone talking about a BMW race body swap on a Datsun page. Decided to dive down the wormhole with a few of my buddies and take the plung.

So we decided on a s10 for a first vehicle, 4.3 v6, easy to work on, ect. Plus I haven’t seen many trucks on the page or in pictures, gotta be different!

First truck we found and bought was a 2000 S-10 Extreme ext cab. Should have known this was gonna be a loss leader when I saw the bullet holes in the tailgate! It ran, but had transmission issues that seemed like an easy fix, so we brought it home. Our original plan was to mid engine mount the v6 in/behind the cab and bed, and link it up to a 94 RX7 rear end I found locally.

The truck ended up being a rust bucket, so we are just going to pull the engine, some plastic, and scrap the truck.

Found a second truck for cheaper ($150) with a V6 and manual. It is a 1995 reg cab, long bed, so will be a little lighter. It will need the cab corners fixed and the drivers floor board. We scrapped the mid engine idea and are gonna install the rear end from the RX7 in this for IRS. Pic up that truck Thursday.

Living in Northern Ohio we plan on running Gingerman, Pittsburg, and maybe the Chump Series at Nelson Ledges because its so close to home.

Here are the plan for the truck and how we are gonna budget it out. If we go over, it wont be more than 100-200 dollars

Truck – 150   
Rear end – 250
Floor board – 30
Cab corners –30
Lowering springs – 30
Misc Sheet metal – 100

Im sure we will have more add up, but that’s the start!

So with reading the rules any of these components are exempt from the 500 correct?

Brakes, Wheels, Tires, Fuel Cell, Cage correct?

Looking at cage options, I have a friend that can weld up the cage no problem. Getting a good bender is the issue, so we are thinking of going the SC Racing Parts cage route. Pre bent, then we will Mig/Tig weld it up. Does a cage have to be Tig’d? or Mig’d?

Looking forward to going racing next year!

  • Registered: 2018-02-04
  • Posts: 308

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Those items, your seat, and your fire suppression system are all exempt.

With a '95 S10 you don't need to worry too much about documenting your costs.   Worry about passing the tech inspection, not the BS inspection. With a '95 S10 the BS inspectors won't care what you did, and even if they did on that particular day you'd only get a few laps. Since you are highly unlikely to compete for a trophy your first few races, penalty laps wouldn't make a difference anyway.

TIG/MIG welding isn't required by the rules, so maybe in theory there is a welder out there good enough with a stick welder to make a cage that would pass.  I sure wouldn't bet my cage and my first race on it.

Do make sure your welder reads the "how to not fail" section three times before starting. Tech is pretty rigid on the cage specs.  We've seen folks at several races who either headed back home Friday evening or had welders buzzing well into the night after failing tech on Friday. Saw one at Barber two or three years ago still welding on Saturday afternoon.

Best of luck.

  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

For ease of reference:

How To Not Fail Lemons Tech Inspection

  • Registered: 2020-08-13
  • Posts: 14

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Stan in Bham wrote:

Those items, your seat, and your fire suppression system are all exempt.

With a '95 S10 you don't need to worry too much about documenting your costs.   Worry about passing the tech inspection, not the BS inspection. With a '95 S10 the BS inspectors won't care what you did, and even if they did on that particular day you'd only get a few laps. Since you are highly unlikely to compete for a trophy your first few races, penalty laps wouldn't make a difference anyway.

TIG/MIG welding isn't required by the rules, so maybe in theory there is a welder out there good enough with a stick welder to make a cage that would pass.  I sure wouldn't bet my cage and my first race on it.

Do make sure your welder reads the "how to not fail" section three times before starting. Tech is pretty rigid on the cage specs.  We've seen folks at several races who either headed back home Friday evening or had welders buzzing well into the night after failing tech on Friday. Saw one at Barber two or three years ago still welding on Saturday afternoon.

Best of luck.


Yeah I have read that “how not to fail tech” multiple times. Do people just not follow directions? Lol. It’s pretty simple, and ask questions if you need to.

One question I do have, can we get a non FIA fuel cell and mount it in the bed without running into problems at tech? Seems that since there is a bulkhead between it and the driver (rear of cab) that it should be fine.

Also, are sliding seat brackets purposely made for race seats acceptable? Driver heights will be 6’3”, 6’0, and one at 5’11”

  • From: Columbus, Oh
  • Registered: 2020-05-19
  • Posts: 313

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Sliding seat brackets are acceptable as long as they are locking. "Purposefully made for race seats" will probably save you some time fabricating and getting things to fit together.

Good to see an Ohio team on here. I even think that Lemons did a race at Toledo back in the day, but I doubt they're into oval tracks anymore and I'm not sure whatever happened at Nelsons Ledges that they haven't been back there (Mid-Ohio seems to not be interested in hosting a Lemons race either).

If you're ever looking for an Ohio guy as a fourth (from Cbus) let me know.

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

6 Reply by jbl (edited by jbl 2020-08-17 08:59 AM)

  • jbl
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mgoblue06 wrote:

One question I do have, can we get a non FIA fuel cell and mount it in the bed without running into problems at tech? Seems that since there is a bulkhead between it and the driver (rear of cab) that it should be fine.

What's the status of the OE tank?

Based on 3.H.2 in the rules, if your fuel cell has all of that, then I think the only thing you'd be missing is the actual FIA- rated designation.  At that point, I think you're only looking at $100 or less in difference just for that sticker.  Worth the price to me just to avoid additional scrutineering by the judges and tech.

As for actually mounting it to the bed, someone else will have to chime in on that.  I look at 3.H.4 and 3.H.4a and read that as "no", or at the very least, additional work will be required to make sure that cell is protected.  Think outside of the box...this is Lemons, so a literal park bench could come flying over your cab and down onto the bed to puncture the tank if it's not protected properly.  Again, it will mean more work for you and additional scrutiny from the judges and tech.

NJMP '11--#132 (Speedycop), NJMP '12 to '16--#215 (Philthy Motorsports), NJMP '16--#75 Most Heroic Fix, NJMP '17--#75 (still drying out), NJMP '18--#75, NHMS '18 - #75 Datsun 510
  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Seat sliders - Allowed but they need to be double locking (lock mechanism on each of the sliders).  To compensate for the different heights, make it slide up as it goes forward.  They do not need to be racing specific.  In fact, I'd stay away from some of the racing specific ones as they seem kinda floppy <cough Sparco>.  Volvo 240 sliders seem stout.
Fuel Cell - You read the rules correctly, non-FIA cell is okay as long as its outside the driver's compartment like you envision in your truck.  If you don't have a rear window and you are unsure, slice a top loading washing machine housing horizontally and plop it down over the top of your fuel cell.  You now have a metal enclosure over the cell with a opening cover.  The cell does need to have some protection so as with real estate, location is everything. 
Welding media isn't specified but it better be done well with no grinding.

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  • Registered: 2020-08-13
  • Posts: 14

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

cheseroo wrote:

Seat sliders - Allowed but they need to be double locking (lock mechanism on each of the sliders).  To compensate for the different heights, make it slide up as it goes forward.  They do not need to be racing specific.  In fact, I'd stay away from some of the racing specific ones as they seem kinda floppy <cough Sparco>.  Volvo 240 sliders seem stout.
Fuel Cell - You read the rules correctly, non-FIA cell is okay as long as its outside the driver's compartment like you envision in your truck.  If you don't have a rear window and you are unsure, slice a top loading washing machine housing horizontally and plop it down over the top of your fuel cell.  You now have a metal enclosure over the cell with a opening cover.  The cell does need to have some protection so as with real estate, location is everything. 
Welding media isn't specified but it better be done well with no grinding.


I envision our fuel cell mounted in the bed betweenj the down posts from the cage. We will probably pull the window and install lexan glass, ill reach out to tech about this before we even think about showing up at a race

Thanks for the slider info!

As for welding, I fully trust his welding, and he has done commercial work before. no grinding. I know everyone says, "My buiddy is a great welder!" But I have seen this work and its top notch

As for pre bent cages, does anyone have feedback on going with SC Parts vs Roll Cage Components?

  • Huskar
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

We have a similar setup in our truck for the fuel cell.  Pagel wanted a metal cover over the cell with the lexan window or fia cell.  Rules require a full metal bulkhead We have an aluminum tonneau cover over the bed to comply.

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1999 Chevy Blazer
  • Registered: 2015-09-29
  • Posts: 78

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

You are asking the right questions. I always recommend mounting seat first and building cage around it.  Short cab truck may be tricky, extended cab is more forgiving.

Tri-Lamb Motorsports ‘87 528e
  • Registered: 2020-08-13
  • Posts: 14

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Huskar wrote:

We have a similar setup in our truck for the fuel cell.  Pagel wanted a metal cover over the cell with the lexan window or fia cell.  Rules require a full metal bulkhead We have an aluminum tonneau cover over the bed to comply.


So you run lexan glass and then a aluminum tonneau over the bed and that suffices?

We planned on a aluminum bed cover anyway

  • Registered: 2020-08-13
  • Posts: 14

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

zakp73 wrote:

You are asking the right questions. I always recommend mounting seat first and building cage around it.  Short cab truck may be tricky, extended cab is more forgiving.


Good idea.

Where do you think the issues will arise? Not enough room for the tall driver because of clearance between seat and cage?

I would figure cage would go in first, and then you adjust the seat around the cage?

  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 214

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mgoblue06 wrote:

  Good idea.

Where do you think the issues will arise? Not enough room for the tall driver because of clearance between seat and cage?

I would figure cage would go in first, and then you adjust the seat around the cage?

As an almost 6'5" driver I can tell you get the seat mounted FIRST then figure out your cage. It is a whole lot easier to fix cage/seat fitment problems before the cage is welded. This is another reason to have someone build you a custom cage. Badly designed cages make driving the car less than pleasurable.

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  • Registered: 2011-06-17
  • Posts: 109

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Lemons Alfetta wrote:

As an almost 6'5" driver I can tell you get the seat mounted FIRST then figure out your cage. It is a whole lot easier to fix cage/seat fitment problems before the cage is welded. This is another reason to have someone build you a custom cage. Badly designed cages make driving the car less than pleasurable.

Can confirm!

Get your seat mounted, as low in the car as possible, and then have all drivers spend at least 15 minutes driving the car around the neighborhood to make sure everyone has a good driving position. Adjust until you are satisfied.

Then, find out which of your drivers is tallest when sitting in the seat. For us, it turns out that our shortest team member sits tallest in the seat.

Send that tallest driver, with helmet, to the cage shop with the car so the shop can measure how much clearance the cage needs. For some teams, they end up punching the top of the cage through the roof of the car to give enough clearance for the drivers.

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  • From: South of Chicago
  • Registered: 2011-11-26
  • Posts: 750

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

I have see a few cages that had the main hoop outside of the car. Some went through the roof and then across the car, others like your PU had the main hoop behind the cab with tubes through the back forward to form the halo bar. But run this all past Pagel first if you have to build a not-standard cage for driver/seat clearance.

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

A few notes I haven't seen. Because trucks are body on frame, you need to make sure the cage ties into the frame, not just the floor of the cab. This often requires building outriggers from the frame to where the cage points land. There are a bunch of old threads discussing this idea, here is one of them
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=27529

You can absolutely build the cage over the roof to give you more space. Example of the Izusu Hombre (which is just an S-10 with fancy badges and grills) built by 3 pedal mafia and now owned by the garage heros in training team.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ronIynxhKg3kkw6ihaKIsE7D7sEcG_KTawvmAnSBRKIfUzBGTAAs2BM28qmI8BTzOoLHsY9j5FojFgTjDYksxczczjwvpRROR2LMTlIj3aZ680Mkj-0iD71e76f5qiWzKXoEwKMX9p8qBFggW2bcraLndbPEdaRDGlKcf3WvTIJvQj-007O74ESH-XOQN-FNiRR5MAU5mKFx8pmCTElFtJx9itY4KntlLY8o46bZCoh03vZJKe-m5OgHl2g72Q1GA9m7E73ict9cNEJLcvgtjHNGCmsObv_TcP_-wEkEA2V05QKm1vW4pF-RmxspUNsVbpBOGz8E3xY9WavxebG7X4Hnudli__rUdxhHDY1yecOxu3Zb8nuOi-1iqlkp0C94FvDgkx27Bg71LDmWlvyTkoN-hncH8dH4vjkajrDmskipw84WQeVaZOQBBJR1UvLYjy2gxZufo9j-xPS4lcXERK1TD-AQ2RWn_y-8yQKgWgsihwhngFGzjeqpchSELmxc380xkQsFDxnPLe_gMn9Ym6h0Bx0rqNvhBA9TxtKaoUGk7HzZ-LfBIhzmF_UDKKQM5Kfs_laldU4zIJa4CG2NnOMA4du0qTDZ7UIGHxl3bMIsXpY5JsU9vUuogzOQCUKti9KgYLZ1xij7XLgJRE_WJJFqQd2qkuuJIAsNJIN9QKLbYA=w1155-h770-no

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  • Mr.Yuck
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

I don't think rust repair counts. The rear is going to cost ya.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"
  • Registered: 2020-08-13
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mr.Yuck wrote:

I don't think rust repair counts. The rear is going to cost ya.


picked it up for 250 bucks yesterday, and came with three sets of gears. 4.44, 4.10, and 3.90. We will probably sell the 4.44 and 4.10 to recoup some, if not all, of that money

  • Mr.Yuck
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mgoblue06 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

I don't think rust repair counts. The rear is going to cost ya.


picked it up for 250 bucks yesterday, and came with three sets of gears. 4.44, 4.10, and 3.90. We will probably sell the 4.44 and 4.10 to recoup some, if not all, of that money

Is it LSD?

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

20 Reply by Mgoblue06 (edited by Mgoblue06 2020-08-18 08:19 AM)

  • Registered: 2020-08-13
  • Posts: 14

Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Mgoblue06 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

I don't think rust repair counts. The rear is going to cost ya.


picked it up for 250 bucks yesterday, and came with three sets of gears. 4.44, 4.10, and 3.90. We will probably sell the 4.44 and 4.10 to recoup some, if not all, of that money

Is it LSD?


Yep. Torsen Type

  • Mr.Yuck
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mgoblue06 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
Mgoblue06 wrote:

picked it up for 250 bucks yesterday, and came with three sets of gears. 4.44, 4.10, and 3.90. We will probably sell the 4.44 and 4.10 to recoup some, if not all, of that money

Is it LSD?


Yep. Torsen Type

we run the 9 bolt as well... 3.40something.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"
  • Registered: 2020-08-13
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Mgoblue06 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

Is it LSD?


Yep. Torsen Type

we run the 9 bolt as well... 3.40something.


Looking at gear and speed ratios what courses in Lemons, and Champ, run over 115 mph WFO? We are gonna run the NV3500 gears against a calculator as well as a Super T 10 (maybe future upgrade) to see why we figure as the best options for acceleration and top speed

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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mgoblue06 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
Mgoblue06 wrote:

Yep. Torsen Type

we run the 9 bolt as well... 3.40something.


Looking at gear and speed ratios what courses in Lemons, and Champ, run over 115 mph WFO? We are gonna run the NV3500 gears against a calculator as well as a Super T 10 (maybe future upgrade) to see why we figure as the best options for acceleration and top speed

Champcars run well over 130 at some tracks. FWIW we never used 5th at NJMP and barley used it at VIR. We have a T-10 but it needs a rebuild. I guess if we blow up the T5 we'll upgrade.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"
  • Registered: 2020-08-13
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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Mgoblue06 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

we run the 9 bolt as well... 3.40something.


Looking at gear and speed ratios what courses in Lemons, and Champ, run over 115 mph WFO? We are gonna run the NV3500 gears against a calculator as well as a Super T 10 (maybe future upgrade) to see why we figure as the best options for acceleration and top speed

Champcars run well over 130 at some tracks. FWIW we never used 5th at NJMP and barley used it at VIR. We have a T-10 but it needs a rebuild. I guess if we blow up the T5 we'll upgrade.

What car and engine?

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Re: First Time Racer starting build!

Mgoblue06 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
Mgoblue06 wrote:

Looking at gear and speed ratios what courses in Lemons, and Champ, run over 115 mph WFO? We are gonna run the NV3500 gears against a calculator as well as a Super T 10 (maybe future upgrade) to see why we figure as the best options for acceleration and top speed

Champcars run well over 130 at some tracks. FWIW we never used 5th at NJMP and barley used it at VIR. We have a T-10 but it needs a rebuild. I guess if we blow up the T5 we'll upgrade.

What car and engine?

84 Trans Am L69 car with 305 and 5 speed. New build is an 88 but will have the same drive-train and set up. Here's the set up in the 84 (RIP) at NJMP
www.youtube.com/watch?vGpZHzZYXhJQ

"get up and get your grandma outta here"