Topic: How many drivers....?

How many drivers on your team for a 24 hour race? How long of a stint for each driver?


Also, how many drivers on a team for a 14-hour, two-day, normal race? And how long of a driving stint for each driver?

Cheers.
Bob

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: How many drivers....?

Depends on your goals.

If your team is experienced and you want to win, you need to drive a full tank of fuel if you have hopes of finishing atop Class A or Class B. Class C is a crap shoot. Stuff either breaks or gets misclassed so it is possible to be a surprise winner in Class C more often than any other Class.

If you just want to have fun and make sure everyone gets a stint, I recommend each newbie going out on track for the very first time and just do about 5-8 laps. That's enough laps to figure out where the track goes, where the flag stations are, where track off is (which is all you're trying to do for the first 2 laps anyway) and then it gives 1 or 2 laps to overcome some fears and pick up the speed and then it gives 'em a lap or three to totally think they got it, fly off track or hit someone while over-driving while they are filled with overconfidence.

What you're trying to avoid is the last part-- I usually do request about 5 laps with first-time Lemons racers. Then, when they get out of the car and are helping everyone else get buckled in, they can let their brain just process everything that happened out there without the immediate danger of having a steering wheel in their hands and cars flying all around them while trying to "think on the fly..." which in Lemons is really shorthand for "Think on the fly...-ing my way off the track and into the armco because I shoulda been paying attention to what's in front of me instead of thinking what just happened a half second ago."

After that first short stint, bump the next stint up to about 45 minutes.  From there, figure it out as a team perhaps just doing a theoretical even split of the remaining time divided by the number of drivers. Unless you are incredibly anal and really think the decisions you make now MUST be carried out or else the ground will open up an swallow you and your team whole... You can have a rough idea of driver order, but you'll find that putting the stress of hitting your marks minute by minute will potentially create, uh,  unnecessary stress. 

Take note that most semi-competitive teams are pitting right around the 2hr mark with their cars, which is often a full or near full tank of fuel.

Re: How many drivers....?

Thanks spank!

My assumptions were way off.

Cheers.
Bob

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: How many drivers....?

I'll chime in with my 2 cents...

I agree with everything Spank says....

I think you're a first time team,correct?
First time out you want to make sure all members of the team get a chance to drive,even if only for a short stint.
Nothing turns someone off more than spending many $$$ and not getting a chance to drive..Seen it,lived it....

The sensory overload of W2W racing is like nothing you've ever experienced,and is best taken in small doses.
Work your way up to longer stints...2 hours in a racecar will kick your ass....

Don't be afraid to bring the car in if you feel overwhelmed by it all.
No one will judge you harshly if you take the safe way out.

Most importantly,remember to have fun...you ain't gonna win,so you might as well have fun losing...

45+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

5 (edited by Stan in Bham 2020-08-30 08:29 PM)

Re: How many drivers....?

Spank's advice is spot-on.

We require our new drivers to show up for practice day and get at least 45 minutes of track time in, and a couple of sessions if possible.  They can learn the track, flags/corners, and have a chance to get overconfident and scare themselves with a lot fewer cars on the track.  We also limit their first stint on race day, and make absolutely sure that they understand that they (and we all) will get more time at the wheel if the car stays on the track and doesn't try to mate with other cars. 

I suggest 4 to 5 drivers for a normal race, and 6 for a full 24 hour.  Since all of our current drivers are fairly experienced now, we just divide the day's length by the # of drivers).  We're not competitive in B Class, so we aren't too worried about max run time between refueling. If we ever get there, we will.

Two suggestions for the 24 at CMP.  One is to limit night sessions to 90 minutes max, maybe 60 minutes for new drivers/new team. I've done one full 24 at MSR a couple of years ago, and can tell you that you will be overdriving your lights no matter how good your lights are. It is way more stressful than day driving. We did 2 hour shifts, and everybody exited the car after their night shift with eyes wide open and a borderline case of PTSD. In fact, four of our teammates declined the CMP race, stating that a full 24 once every 4 or 5 years would be about right; so I ended up signing up to drive with another team.

The other suggestion is to plan your down time, but know where folks are snoozing (car/truck/tent/RV, and where it is parked). If everyone stays up as long as possible, you will all be exhausted and punchy by 4am.  Having scheduled nap times gets everyone at least a couple hours of zzzz's, and helps keep drivers alert for Sunday morning and for the drive home after the race. Need to know where people are for the "all hands on deck" emergency repairs, but try to schedule your fuel crews so that folks can snooze a little. As an example, if "Joe" comes out of the car at 2:00am, he makes sure the refuel wagon is refilled and ready, then has a break until the second fuel stop after that (at 5:00am), so he goes to sleep in his car for a couple of hours until his refuel duty. "Fred" comes out of the car at 3:30am, and gets to snooze until 6:30, etc. Two 2-3 hour naps will do wonders for alertness over relying solely on caffeine.  Of course, we'll also have the XXL (60 cup) coffeepot on all night at Bad Penny racing's garage stall, so stop by for a cup of caffeine.

Re: How many drivers....?

All sounds like great advice when dealing with shiny new drivers. 

We're one of those teams that goes until we run out of gas which is around two hours on a bone stock Miata 1.8 and shifting below redline. 

For the 14 hour races we've had four drivers and for the upcoming 24 we're going with six.  Stints in the 14 hour races were right at two hours and the aim for the 24 is around 100-110 minutes each because we're running a thirstier engine with the same shrimpy gas tank. 

So far all of our drivers have had some experience with amateur motorsports or were already Lemons veterans.  If we were to chance a unspoiled driver we'd probably take a similar route as was mentioned in the earlier posts. 

Right now we ask new drivers to come out for an open lapping day prior to the race to get used to our car.

7 (edited by rb92673 2020-08-31 09:40 AM)

Re: How many drivers....?

I like 5 for a 24 hour race, 4 for a normal race.  At HPR we are going with 4 drivers for the 24 because I did not want to bring in an unknown.  Besides I have Spank on my team who has done almost an 8 hour stint at Sonoma in the Moke with a 24 gallon fuel cell.

Ditto on all the new driver stuff.  Lap times will get much slower after dark for newer drivers.

My car goes about 1:45 - 2:00  before it starves in the corners, so we set our target stint times at 1:40 with driver discretion.

Make sure at night that the driver knows where their relief will be if they come in early.  It is frustrating if you come in early and nobody is around at 3:00 AM.

The sunrise shift is the best stint to have, it is exhilarating seeing the sun rise after driving all night long.  Sunset (glare) or 3:00 AM (sleep deprived) is the worst.

Get a big wall clock and mount it to the dash, write the come in time in dry erase on the clock.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: How many drivers....?

Stan in Bham wrote:

Spank's advice is spot-on.
Two suggestions for the 24 at CMP.  One is to limit night sessions to 90 minutes max, maybe 60 minutes for new drivers/new team. I've done one full 24 at MSR a couple of years ago, and can tell you that you will be overdriving your lights no matter how good your lights are. It is way more stressful than day driving. We did 2 hour shifts, and everybody exited the car after their night shift with eyes wide open and a borderline case of PTSD. In fact, four of our teammates declined the CMP race, stating that a full 24 once every 4 or 5 years would be about right; so I ended up signing up to drive with another team.

Driving at night is ALL about your lights. First race at Thunderhill in '07 was the weekend between Christmas and New Years. Our car broke Saturday afternoon and by the time we fixed it sun was down, it was dark but the race was still going. We had 2 driving lights on the front of the car, couldn't see $%^&. Track was grey, grass was brown with no line in between and I had NEVER been to the track before. MOST scared in a racecar I've ever been. In '10 we're running the 24hour at Reno, way better lighting on the car, had run there the year before and really liked that track. I had the stint right after the sun went down, goal was a full fuel stint which is 3 hours. Told the team if it got too stressful I'd do an hour and a half. Ended up doing three and a half hours, one of the most fun times in a car. The difference was the lighting, have two lights facing forward and two aimed across the front of the car that form an X that light the corners before you get there. BIGGEST thing is DON'T scan like you do during the day. ONLY look where the beams of light are, if you scan the brain freaks when it looks at the dark spaces between the beams and that causes stress. I know because I did try the scanning and it freaked me out, went back to looking only at the beams and it was all good.
Hope this helps.

Wes Conklin
Team California Mille
2007 Eyetalian Class Champions
20+ races and still going strong, Finally won one. Pacific Northworst Winner 2012.

9 (edited by VKZ24 2020-08-31 02:20 PM)

Re: How many drivers....?

To answer you question directly, we typically run 4 driver's in a normal race.  For the 24 we will have 5, with an extra guy just as a crew member.  We are a seasoned class A team, so we run until we fuel starve, which is a little over 2 hours depending on caution laps and how hard we are pushing.

For a noob team with noob drivers, just keep in mind that your first Lemons race is the apocalyptic version of sensory overload.  That fact applies to those who have HPDE experience.  For those without HPDE experience, it's likely to be sensory overload multiplied times two at least.   Add in the 24 hour aspect, and the sensory overload factor goes to times four.

With what sounds like doom and gloom stated above, if you go in with the mindset of just tuning laps and having fun, none of it really matters.  As has already been said, you're not going to win anything your first outing, so just chill and have a good time.  Keep your stints short and manageable so the driver doesn't exit like he's been on meth and ready to crack.


Stan in Bham wrote:

I've done one full 24 at MSR a couple of years ago, and can tell you that you will be overdriving your lights no matter how good your lights are. It is way more stressful than day driving.


IME, the above quote is spot on for night driving.  What ever amount your brain is taxed in the daylight, it will be at least TWICE that at night. 

My first night race was at a track I had over 4,000 miles of HPDE experience on.  I knew it like the back of my hand...or so I thought.  My first lap I drove right off the damn track before the first turn!  Here is what I learned from my experience, but as always YMMV:

1.  Re-adjust your mirrors for night vs. day otherwise you'll get night blindness every time a car is behind you in a corner.

2.  Ge the best lights you can afford.  Those stupid LED light bars are made for slow Off-Road vehicles, not race cars doing 100 MPH.  All you will accomplish with those is a wash of light 6 feet ahead of the bumper.

3.  Aim your lights properly.  Don't know how?  Google will show you how using a just a tape measure and lines of masking tape on a wall.  If you see someone with lights aimed 45 degrees from the center line of their car in attempt to illuminate the corners, they are misinformed.  Once you actually GET to the corner, guess where that light will be aimed?

4.  Get an interior light.  Most teams forget this, but it's a bitch trying to find the belts in dark during a pit stop.  if you are handy, wire one into the door switch.  If you forgot and removed the door switches to save that 0.001 ounces of extra weight, get a stick on one from HF and stick to the inside of the roof.

5.  Stay hydrated.  Night driving is strenuous and you'll sweat more than you did during the day.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: How many drivers....?

I'll jump back in with more helpful hints..

On the subject of interior lights..if you can,get a red light for the inside of the car.
Not just to look reeeaalllly cool,but your eyes will adapt to the darkness around you much easier.

I was crew at the 24 in MSR and I bought a rechargable bicycle light ,and fabbed up a bracket I could duct tape to the top of my helmet to make fueling easier.It really helped ,because the lights on pit lane would cause some wicked shadows...The duct tape makes it transferable to other teammates' helmets. You'll thank me later....

Have fun out there....

45+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: How many drivers....?

BigBird wrote:

I'll jump back in with more helpful hints..

I was crew at the 24 in MSR and I bought a rechargable bicycle light ,and fabbed up a bracket I could duct tape to the top of my helmet to make fueling easier.It really helped ,because the lights on pit lane would cause some wicked shadows...The duct tape makes it transferable to other teammates' helmets. You'll thank me later....

Have fun out there....


Or the cheap imitation - headlamps, worn loose around the neck for refuel duty.   They're dual purpose for working on/in/under the car, too.

Big Bird is right about the wicked shadows from the stadium lights on pit lane. Bring a light of some sort, or a really big drip pan.

Re: How many drivers....?

Great info here. Thanks everyone.

For light, we are setting up w a pair of hella 500ff and a pair of hella 500 fog (for corners) in addition to the cars standard low and high beam. We decided to go that route bc halogen bulbs don’t usually cause interference and the tech is pretty reliable. 
However...Has anyone found Other good, reasonably priced options that are led or hid based? Max gave me a suggestion but order timing didn’t work out.  I would really prefer something that puts light where it’s needed (Not just a light-shotgun)
Stoked about our first 24!