1 (edited by jeiting 2020-10-26 07:57 PM)

Topic: Car search help for a newbie team

My dad and brothers are looking to build a car for some races in 2021. We’re not very experienced car people but are engineers and I’m pretty handy as long as I can google it. We’re looking to build a car for the joy of learning, and hopefully drive a race with it when we’re done.

We’ve started looking at some crappy cars on Craigslist etc and I’m not sure what level of hooptiness we should consider.

Miles: How many is too many? We’ve got a lead on a Subaru with 300k miles on it, which seems like we’re in for a world of pain but it’s still driven daily so ...

Rust: I looked at an awesome AMC Concord that had exfoliating corrosion on the frame, and a Ford Contour that was only mildly rusty but was questionable in a few places. Walked away from both because I didn’t know what we would be in for if the frame was too far gone, and even how to determine that. We’re in the Midwest so some rust is inevitable but not sure how much is too much.

Engine: Both “ran” but barely, stalled out at idle, or couldn’t produce more than 3k RPM. Should I aim to get an engine that can actually drive? I notice lots of folks swap engines mid race, not sure what level of “rUnS bUt RoUgH” i should be willing to accept.

Anyway, just looking for some sage advice. It’s pretty easy to know what models and years are better than others from research, but some wisdom on how much jank to accept on a new team of novice mechanics would help a ton.

2 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2020-10-26 10:40 PM)

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Build what you like, or, what you want.

I found a Lexus SC400 for ~$300 with 250k+ miles that just _looked_ complete in the online pictures. Turns out, just needs front shocks (and a cage, etc., still).

But, I got lucky.

3 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2020-10-26 10:54 PM)

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Maybe buy this:
... Art car

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

I have little experience and lots of opinions. Some of which may be of use to you.

Be patient and be willing to drive for a deal. I’ve driven 8 hours each way (which I don’t think is uncommon).  I’d say the buying process should be months not days. Picking the right make/model will be a big time saver.

Things to consider:
Fuel consumption (gets pricey and affects strategy. The strategy part doesn’t matter right now, but maybe later)
Brake pad cost and availability (if you haven’t priced out race pads, do it. It’ll be a good reality check)
Tire cost and availability
Junkyard parts availability
Donor car availability (sometimes hoarders will sell 2 or 3 of the same car. Then you can be a hoarder too. I have 3 E28s. #blessed)
Ease of maintenance (never owned one ,but I hear Subarus are tricky)
Ease of repair (can you fix it when it breaks?)
Ease of cage fab (Tighter spaces are more difficult, especially with tall drivers. Convertibles are easiest to cage and arm restraints are no big deal)
FWD vs RWD (Pick your poison)
Do you want to street drive it? (Gotta worry about smog/inspection, but nice to be able to test around town instead of having to trailer to a track to learn your toy doesn’t work)
Value of takeoff parts on eBay (this is huge if you want to be within budget.  Do people want those parts or is it all just trash?)
OBD2 cars help you with diagnostics and you can tap into the info stream if you want to get all engineery. Also, they are more complicated than a carbureted engine with no emissions equipment.

Check out tow yard auctions. Some cars are crashed but functional (crash structures must be intact for racing). Some cars will have been towed due to being street parked with expired registration and subsequently abandoned after yard fees went through the roof. All the back DMV fees will keep the price low (maybe).

On Craigslist search terms like “wont start”, “needs work”, “needs clutch”. Stay away from head gasket issues which may really be cracked block or head issues.

Fuel injected cars that crank, but don’t start are potentially good as they are probably(?) mechanically okay, just that the owner has no patience for tracing an electrical or fuel delivery (electrical) problem.

Pick a car that you like.  Pick a car that could be cool, or funny, or fast, or whatever you are into.  Consider what is cool to you. Don’t worry too much about the judges. They don’t have to spend hundreds of hours working on the thing.

Everyone will tell you to buy a race prepped car. They are right. It will be cheaper and way easier. The previous owner’s loss, and late nights, and long weekends, and junkyard trips, and busted knuckles will be your gain. 

But... that’s not the same as building a race car with your own two hands.

Hope this helps.

Have fun.

Tri-Lamb Motorsports ‘87 528e

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Consider buying an already built Lemons car. You can buy them for pennies on the dollar compared to building it from scratch. You’ll start racing sooner. There’s plenty to learn with an already built car and you can build your own later from the lessons that you learned.

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

How much jank you're willing to accept is really a judgement call that only you can make.  Same goes for how much rust is too much.  You really don't know until you look carefully at each specific car.
Generally speaking, rust is obviously bad and should be avoided.  Everything else is usually fixable, and a lot of what might make a car cheap is irrelevant for our purposes since so much of it gets thrown out or serviced just as part of the process of race prep.
Ideally, I would say you want a car that is running and still being driven regularly, but is cosmetically as ugly as possible.   Lots of dents, nasty interior, vandalized, duct taped garbage bag windows, running on 3 bald tires and a donut spare, etc.  These are things that are not really going to affect you because you're going to tear all that out or replace it anyway, but it makes the car undesirable for everyone else, and cheaper for you.
I would definitely recommend patience and a willingness to travel.  Your perfect car will come along eventually if you're looking far enough and waiting long enough.

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

I second the idea of buying an already built car.  I guarantee it will be cheaper.  Even better is to buy one that is still street legal.  Failing that option if I was starting out again, I'd buy a Volvo 240.  Maybe even a non-turbo.  Either way you'll get something stupidly reliable, can be found cheaply, strong as hell and isn't half bad to race.  It's also large enough that you and the cage isn't crammed in there.  Also being large enough that all it's spares fit inside the car.  It's a good solid platform that you can upgrade later (V8 swap, etc) as you gain experience

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Spend some time in these forums looking at different car types.
You can usually find some answers, good or bad, and some cars
to eliminate from your search pattern.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

9 (edited by Max 2020-10-27 11:56 AM)

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

I think everyone has a different set goals when they first go down the Lemon's path.  Since you didn't mention buying a used race car I'm going to assume building your own car is one of or part of your goals.  I understand completely.  If I were to do it all over again with perfect foresight I would still build my own despite the additional cost and time.  To me that was a huge part of the fun.  To each their own though. 

IMHO - I wouldn't worry as much about miles or mild rust.  Most everything is replaceable and most stuff is surprisingly cheap if you do the installation part.  I would worry about availability and reliability. 

I would run with something that is plentiful in junk yards and has some proven history of reliability in endurance racing.  To me the racing aspect of Lemons outweighed the quirky-build part.  Yeah, lame, but know yourself, right?

Engines, transmissions, suspension, etc are amazingly NOT difficult to replace.  I'm an accountant with zero training who has successfully done all of those things multiple times since I've started down this rabbit hole.  If I am really worried about something I'll see if I can get someone who really knows their stuff to come around to supervise but otherwise YouTube and the forums have been enough.  Be honest with yourself and your level of patience and how deliberate and careful you can be.  If you are patient, deliberate, and careful you can build a reliable race car. 

Most any car can be a fun endurance car.  To decide which car to choose you might look at the race entry files that are posted in the Our Crappy Race forum and compare them to the results.  It is illuminating. 

We went with the obvious (and admittedly boring in a Lemony-way) choice and converted my truly crappy daily driver Miata into a Lemons car.  There are many reasons they are the most raced car in the world and, along with older BMWs, make up a major minority in just about any (all?) Lemons races.  Don't think it's necessary to list all the reason but, for me, building a Lemons Miata checked every one of my required boxes. 

You asked about Subarus specifically - IMHO they are great for a lot of things but generally speaking their boxter motors do not hold up to racing.  This is coming from someone who raced them for years in rallycross and has known and still knows many people that drive them competitively.  Those engines like to blow the F up.  Head gaskets and spun bearings are a running joke in the Subaru community for a reason.  You can certainly run a Subaru (and several teams do) but go in with both eyes open. 

Whatever you choose I'm sure you'll have fun.


Oh yeah - please do yourself a favor and test your car BEFORE race day.  I am constantly shocked by teams that show up to their first race with whips that haven't seen the track yet.  If you don't have a track handy or the costs are too high take the car to an autocross or five.  Find out how the car feels at a high G-load.  Do your knees get bruised by the cage when your turn right?  Can you reach the mirror with arm restrains on?  Is your seat comfy?  Can all of your drivers see over the steering wheel?

10 (edited by jeiting 2020-10-27 01:36 PM)

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Some great advice. Thanks for all the great posts!

My takeaways so far:

1. Get the car we WANT to build, and be patient.
2. Rust is probably a big deal unless it's minor, superficial.
3. If it starts, it can probably work.
4. Make and model does matter for repairability etc.


I also just found a nice looking '94 Tempo nearby, a car my dad had when I was a kid so has some sentimental value. They want $1300 for it. Seems like a lemon like that there would be some leeway on the BS laps given it's a Tempo. I guess, I also don't really care if we get a bajillion BS laps, we're looking to run, not win.

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

I also just found a nice looking '94 Tempo nearby, a car my dad had when I was a kid so has some sentimental value. They want $1300 for it. Seems like a lemon like that there would be some leeway on the BS laps given it's a Tempo. I guess, I also don't really care if we get a bajillion BS laps, we're looking to run, not win.

From what I saw at my 1st race, don't worry a whole lot about the $500 "rule". Seems they're more interested in seeing something quirky and different. Certainly something besides a Miata or BMW...lol
That Tempo I would think would end up in C class with no penalty laps if you don't add too much performance wise (wait...Tempo and performance in the same sentence....lol)

If the Tempo runs good, and has a good body, I think it'd be a good car to build. I would try talking him down as much as possible, and don't be afraid to walk away and check back a week later holding firm to your offer. Yeah, it might get sold in the meantime, but there will be other cars.

1991 VW Jetta #38 - cuz Whoopie Pie!

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Go with the 'want to' car, or the 'sentimental favorite' car - I think you'll have more fun that way.

But if it were me - and it's not - unless the Tempo was the _actual_ Tempo your dad (and maybe the rest of you, while you were learning to drive) drove, I don't think it will be the same.

But if your dad had a 'dream car' back then, that's the one _I'd_ look for.

If I could find that actual VW Scirocco 16V my father had, or the Rabbit GTI before that (after we kids were all out of the house), I'd go for it. But I'm sure they're long gone.

I don't have a younger sister named 'Topaz', 'Cordoba', or 'Portia', either.

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

jeiting wrote:

Some great advice. Thanks for all the great posts!

My takeaways so far:

1. Get the car we WANT to build, and be patient.
2. Rust is probably a big deal unless it's minor, superficial.
3. If it starts, it can probably work.
4. Make and model does matter for repairability etc.


I also just found a nice looking '94 Tempo nearby, a car my dad had when I was a kid so has some sentimental value. They want $1300 for it. Seems like a lemon like that there would be some leeway on the BS laps given it's a Tempo. I guess, I also don't really care if we get a bajillion BS laps, we're looking to run, not win.

Good car choice!

No judge will ask you for receipts for a stock Tempo, but $1300 seems like a lot.  Plenty of $500 or less Tempos out there.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

rb92673 wrote:
jeiting wrote:

Some great advice. Thanks for all the great posts!

My takeaways so far:

1. Get the car we WANT to build, and be patient.
2. Rust is probably a big deal unless it's minor, superficial.
3. If it starts, it can probably work.
4. Make and model does matter for repairability etc.


I also just found a nice looking '94 Tempo nearby, a car my dad had when I was a kid so has some sentimental value. They want $1300 for it. Seems like a lemon like that there would be some leeway on the BS laps given it's a Tempo. I guess, I also don't really care if we get a bajillion BS laps, we're looking to run, not win.

Good car choice!

No judge will ask you for receipts for a stock Tempo, but $1300 seems like a lot.  Plenty of $500 or less Tempos out there.


Seconded.

No judge will look twice at a Tempo

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Alright. Went to drive a 96 Subaru Legacy wagon and the Tempo. And well....

https://i.ibb.co/VmN8pqj/D90-F1-CAE-A602-4-CD2-AA46-3-A6427-F17825.jpg

Found my Lemons car. Belonged to the sellers dad who just passed. Only 100k miles, no rust, ran and drove like a dream and everything worked. Plus, the ridiculous automatic shoulder belts are soooo good. I almost want make it my daily.

Got him down a little, and I think we’ll be able to get some money out on interior maybe.

Excited to get started. Really all I think we’ll need to do is cage it and do some basic engine service and brakes. Much more approachable than some of the other crap cans I’ve driven. Just glad I can stop checking craigslist every hour.

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Mileage matters not.  Rust is huge... Stay away from it.  Engines are easy to replace. Chassis not so much.  Good luck and cuz you're a bunch of engineers.  keep it simple... stuped.,

"We Got Screwed" NHMS 2017, 4th NHMS 2020,  4th NJMP 2021,
"Judges Choice" NHMS 2021,10th NJMP 2022, 3rd Thompson 2022
#847 Batmobile  aka-"Beulah"  search Squidrope Racing on Facebook

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

You are not going to get penalized for paying $1100 for a $500 Tempo

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Great find!  Don't worry about penalty laps in a Tempo. If you bring it looking really stock you deserve bonus laps.  And any car is a lot of fun to thrash on a race course.

We went with the car we found because (1) it ran great, (2) there are lots of them in Pull-a-Part yards at any given time, and (3) the interior was horrible - plastic all cracked, dry rotted, or really sticky from years in the sun; and carpet and seats were badly mildewed/moldy from a leaky sunroof. That made the price right for a great running low mileage car, and we were going to rip out the interior anyway. I'd suggest the same to any new team looking for a first Lemons car if you insist on building your own. Buying a pre-built car would be cheaper (and wiser), but you'll learn a lot building your own.

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

That does look like the one - congratulations.

'Mount the seat before measuring for the cage' is a frequent refrain on this forum.
Kill switch, fire suppression.
Read the rules.
Read the forums - there are plenty of questions already answered, and lots of help available. Like maybe leave the defroster.

And, of course:
How To Not Fail Lemons Tech Inspection

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

I'd build what you know. If you are a American V8 guy buy one of those. Gen III f-body's are cheap and parts are cheap. The only down side is the small gas tank. You should also search c-list for "race car"... there might be one for sale close by. You will save tones of time and money. For starters I'd worry about just getting a safe reliable car together, then worry about a  theme and actually trying to win something.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

jeiting wrote:

Alright. Went to drive a 96 Subaru Legacy wagon and the Tempo. And well....

https://i.ibb.co/VmN8pqj/D90-F1-CAE-A602-4-CD2-AA46-3-A6427-F17825.jpg

Found my Lemons car. Belonged to the sellers dad who just passed. Only 100k miles, no rust, ran and drove like a dream and everything worked. Plus, the ridiculous automatic shoulder belts are soooo good. I almost want make it my daily.

Got him down a little, and I think we’ll be able to get some money out on interior maybe.

Excited to get started. Really all I think we’ll need to do is cage it and do some basic engine service and brakes. Much more approachable than some of the other crap cans I’ve driven. Just glad I can stop checking craigslist every hour.

should have read all posts..lol BEFORE you cage it, gut it, take out as much as you can. The further you can get the cage away form you the more comfortable you will be in the car. Enjoy ... nobody is going to hammer you if you being that car.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

22 (edited by rb92673 2020-10-28 10:38 AM)

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

jeiting wrote:

Alright. Went to drive a 96 Subaru Legacy wagon and the Tempo. And well....

https://i.ibb.co/VmN8pqj/D90-F1-CAE-A602-4-CD2-AA46-3-A6427-F17825.jpg

Found my Lemons car. Belonged to the sellers dad who just passed. Only 100k miles, no rust, ran and drove like a dream and everything worked. Plus, the ridiculous automatic shoulder belts are soooo good. I almost want make it my daily.

Got him down a little, and I think we’ll be able to get some money out on interior maybe.

Excited to get started. Really all I think we’ll need to do is cage it and do some basic engine service and brakes. Much more approachable than some of the other crap cans I’ve driven. Just glad I can stop checking craigslist every hour.

Excellent choice.  Do the basics to make it reliable and safe.  Don't try and make it racey...yet.  If you can last a full race just turning consistently slow laps as is, you have a shot at IOE.

Basic service and replace any dodgy hoses & belts.  Check your wheel bearings. Make sure it runs cool.  Get real racing brake pads and fluid.  Buy a spare set of rims/tires. Make sure it doesn't overheat.  Also, make sure it will stay running cool.

Enjoy.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

23 (edited by TrenchFoot 2020-10-28 11:36 AM)

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

rb92673 wrote:

Basic service and replace any dodgy hoses & belts.  Check your wheel bearings. Make sure it runs cool.  Get real racing brake pads and fluid.  Buy a spare set of rims/tires. Make sure it doesn't overheat.  Also, make sure it will stay running cool.

Enjoy.

Also get a spare ignition module and find a way to keep it cool. Tempos have a habit of heating them up to the point they fail until they cool down. It's mounted to the base of the distributor. Either get a relocation kit or use lots of airflow, heat sink and paste.

Low Road Racing:  Stylemaster/Mustang II/Sunbird/Spirit AMX

We will not compromise our morals and build anything but a class C car.
"You take the high road, we'll take the low."

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

So as this is a Gen 1 facelift model, I guess you've got a front wheel drive, 2.3 "HSC" inline 4 with "CFI" throttle body fuel injection and a 5 speed manual?

Inline engine = only 1 headgasket, and mounted transversely most of what you need to access should be facing you when you lift the hood.
4 cylinders = fewer spark plugs and leads
2.3 L = should be good economy, and the engine will weigh less if you need to swap it.

The 2.3 HSC (86bhp with CFI) was used in the Tempo and Topaz until 1994 but not much else. I'd expect the 125bhp 2.0 Zetec (Contour/Mystique 1995-2000 and 2001-2005 Ford Escape and Mazda Tribute) to be a pretty easy upgrade and easier to find. More challenging but following the same lineage would be the Duratec I4, aka Mazda L engine. 1.8-2.5L, 2001-present, the 2.3 should get you 150bhp. The newer the engine, the better the economy should be but the more wiring you're going to need to work with.

Re: Car search help for a newbie team

Alright. We got her home.

https://i.ibb.co/TKwv4kX/image-19.png

After spending some more time with interior in the light I'm even more uneasy about rUinNing ClAsSIc. The interior is damn near perfect. I'm almost thinking I pull it all out and try to sell it as a lot for someTempo fanatic that wants a whole, nearly perfect interior. Doubtful, but would save me heaps of time. Maybe I'll register tempointeriors.com and set up a shopify store.

Giving it a really thorough look over, we won't need to do almost anything to get it ready to race. Most likely just brakes, tires, and services stuff (plus cage etc obviously).

Rough order of operations I'm thinking:

1. Remove the interior and hopefully sell it.

2. Get a race seat and mount, install seat temporarily to measure for the cage.

3. Measure for the cage taking into account seat plus likely driver heights, and figure out where we'll mount it, what style etc. I'm planning on using https://rollcagecomponents.com/ to manufacture the cage.

4. Practice welding a buuuunnnnccchhhh. I want to get really comfortable before I even think about starting. If I don't get there, i'll pay someone to weld it in but I'm hoping to have a crack at it.

5. Belts, Kill switch, Fire extinguisher

6. Basic engine service, fix valve cover leak maybe, replace belts, hoses as needed.

7. Brake kit, tires, and maybe service wheel hub bearings if needed.

8. Track day somewhere in the spring to test extended running and gather data (imma engineeerrd)

9. Profit