Topic: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

OK gang, first post here on the Lemons forum, but certainly not new to the “dance”. My family has been SCCA racing for 50+ years but this might be the beginnings of a build for a Lemons team. MAYBE........

So, I get a call from a friend who has a friend that tows and crushes cars. He was dropping off a salvaged vehicle at his yard and saw an MGB waiting it’s ultimate fate. A very flat fate! He goes to take a quick look and sends me a text to call him. I give him a ring and he explains that there is an MGB “carcass” languishing in a muddy holding yard. The next day I take a trip to see what was there. I don’t have high hopes as I figure it’s a steaming pile of British rust like most old MG’s I’ve bought. Well, first let me say, it was a carcass! No engine, no transmission, no interior, a rear axle tube with no brakes/axles/gears, no dash and no bumpers. It does have 2 doors, a trunk lid, a hood and 3 pedals. Surprisingly, there were actually floors, rockers and a trunk floor still intact! Seriously! All of this wonderful thin British steel for a whopping sum of $50 cash with no warranties expressed nor implied.

What does a guy do with a $50 MGB? Spend a few thousand dollars buying another rusty car to do a complete swap and still end up with a crappy convertible that I need to say a prayer and cross my fingers every time I take it out for a drive? Probably not. If I want a slow convertible, I can go get a Miata and know I’ll make it back home from a weekend drive.

I get thinking about an engine swap and the possibilities. 4cyl, V-6, V-8? What would one budget for a swap and then at the end off the day, what would you have? It had a V-8 MGB in the past, but it was a really nice car and sold for good money. I had a V-8 Miata and that also sold for good $$$, but I bought both of the already swapped. Do I want to take on a swap from scratch, sure why not, but what would be the end goal? Fast street car? Trackday toy? Flip it, but no title will be an issue for getting a decent buck for it.

Then it hit me, Lemons RACE CAR!!!!! Maybe.......

I’m here to ask the other inmate at the asylum what they think. Do it, don’t do it, run away like your hair’s on fire or jump in with both feet.

Here we go.....................

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

The first car I raced in Lemons was a friend's MGB. Lemons very much needs more MGBs. Please consider this one vote for "jump in with both feet" especially if the floor and rockers are in good shape.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

I'd stay 4 cyl.  Miata or Ecotec. Maybe V6 but I wouldn't go V8.  Some parts bin shopping should find a suitable rear axle for that.  The judges would love to see an MGB.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

I’ve already looked into the junkyard/u-pull-it possibilities for a driveline swap and came up with a few.

1. Ford Ranger 2.3/5-speed/8.8 rear
2. S-10 4.3/5-speed

Obviously I need an inexpensive alternative, so choices are limited. I know, I know, there are literally thousands of cars out there but a Ford I-6 or Mopar slant-6 just isn’t in the realm of possibilities, nor is a Jag V-12.

I foresee lots of cold days this winter rolling around on the ground under cars at the local junkyard.

Anyone know anything about the GM 4.3? The same salvage yard where the MG came from has a few in Blazers and I can grab the engines for scrap value before they meet the crusher.

More driveline suggestions please.

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

Crap. If you had posted this Tuesday by noon, I'd have been able to drop off - at your location - an Audi A4 2.8 manual quattro for you to play with.

You'll have plenty of options, don't worry.

6 (edited by mthew_m 2020-12-03 03:33 PM)

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

Personally, I'd skip the 4.3 and go for Chevy's other, much better suited alternative - the 3900 LZ9 V6.  The 3900 will be much smaller (60deg V vs 90deg), a lot lighter, and a good bit more power, although the 4.3 would probably win at the very bottom of the tach.  I'm considering a 3900 myself for my Volvo 240.  Any transmission from a Rwd 60 degree V6 should work - anything that uses the GM 'Metric' bellhousing - but your best bet will probably be a T5 from a 4th gen Camaro/Firebird.  Some S-10 transmissions may work as well.  Electronics aren't 'simiple', but, they've been figured out to keep the VVT, so you keep all 240hp/240tq.  Best for racing, the engines are really cheap, and every single junkyard in the US/Canada will have several at any given time.  If the LZ9 3900 seems a bit ambitious, the LX9 3500 (or even a 3400 but, for goodness sake, replace the headgaskets and intake manifolds before installation) are decent substitutes, although a touch heavier and a good bit less powerful. 

If a 60degV6 just doesn't work, I think most here will recommend the Buick 3800 over the Chevy 4.3.  I believe they are similar weight & size, both iron block 90 degree V6s based off of V8s, but, the Buicks have proven pretty race-reliable, and, in supercharged L67 guise, are a good bit more powerful than the 4.3.  But, personally, I'd go 60degV6 or Ecotec long, long before I'd do either of those, especially in a car as light as an MGB.  You'd hate the extra weight from a hoss like a 4.3.

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

If you're in the mood to weld, you could work out how to fit the Miata rear subframe. The hardpoint geometry is available online, think I have the file somewhere...

8 (edited by w650gb500 2020-12-03 08:50 PM)

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

Emyr wrote:

If you're in the mood to weld, you could work out how to fit the Miata rear subframe. The hardpoint geometry is available online, think I have the file somewhere...

Since we run a “race -prep and fabrication” shop, I think I can find someone here to join some metal together wink . There’s a Miata rolling chassis out in the warehouse. I should go take a look.

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

From a power to weight perspective in a small car I would go with an aluminum 4 cylinder, the Ecotec platform has proven to be reliable (without boost) in Lemons and readily available. The Sky/Solstice platform gives a bell housing and 5 speed or look at the EcotecMiata swap kits to use a Miata transmission (A little more spendy).

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

w650gb500 wrote:

OK gang, first post here on the Lemons forum, but certainly not new to the “dance”. My family has been SCCA racing for 50+ years but this might be the beginnings of a build for a Lemons team. MAYBE........

So, I get a call from a friend who has a friend that tows and crushes cars. He was dropping off a salvaged vehicle at his yard and saw an MGB waiting it’s ultimate fate. A very flat fate! He goes to take a quick look and sends me a text to call him. I give him a ring and he explains that there is an MGB “carcass” languishing in a muddy holding yard. The next day I take a trip to see what was there. I don’t have high hopes as I figure it’s a steaming pile of British rust like most old MG’s I’ve bought. Well, first let me say, it was a carcass! No engine, no transmission, no interior, a rear axle tube with no brakes/axles/gears, no dash and no bumpers. It does have 2 doors, a trunk lid, a hood and 3 pedals. Surprisingly, there were actually floors, rockers and a trunk floor still intact! Seriously! All of this wonderful thin British steel for a whopping sum of $50 cash with no warranties expressed nor implied.

What does a guy do with a $50 MGB? Spend a few thousand dollars buying another rusty car to do a complete swap and still end up with a crappy convertible that I need to say a prayer and cross my fingers every time I take it out for a drive? Probably not. If I want a slow convertible, I can go get a Miata and know I’ll make it back home from a weekend drive.

I get thinking about an engine swap and the possibilities. 4cyl, V-6, V-8? What would one budget for a swap and then at the end off the day, what would you have? It had a V-8 MGB in the past, but it was a really nice car and sold for good money. I had a V-8 Miata and that also sold for good $$$, but I bought both of the already swapped. Do I want to take on a swap from scratch, sure why not, but what would be the end goal? Fast street car? Trackday toy? Flip it, but no title will be an issue for getting a decent buck for it.

Then it hit me, Lemons RACE CAR!!!!! Maybe.......

I’m here to ask the other inmate at the asylum what they think. Do it, don’t do it, run away like your hair’s on fire or jump in with both feet.

Here we go.....................

A guy I know swapped a Thunderbird turbo coupe 4 cyl and turbo into an MGB....the thing is not slow.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

As someone who races a Volvo 544 with LZ9 3.9 and AX15 trans - this combo will do what you want but you'd have to do a LOT of suspension and brake upgrades to make it work. You're talking more than early 5.0 Mustang power in a car that weighs 2000lb.

I would recommend the 2.3 Ranger powertrain coupled with a narrowed 7.5 (NOT 8.8, they are a lot heavier). It would fit nicely, and you could probably find a wrecked Ranger for cheap that would have everything you need.

The hassle of using a FWD engine is a bit of work, and the electronics are not a super casual thing.

Cheers
-Anton

Volvo PV544 (RIP) - now with Chevy 3.9 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 142 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

Since this is endurance racing and fuel economy matters I will second the Ecotec swap if you have access the right tranny (I have one but Brett tried to exhaust the entire supply in the Midwest).  Their fuel consumption is low, power is very good and you have...um, limitted space for fuel.

Brett is the "Ecotec all things" guy along with him brother.  We are the 3800 all things guys but this is once I would not advocate it.

If you REALLY have to have a V8, the Rover swap is so well documented it is almost a no-brainer.  Trust me, there is a ready supply of the motors as they go to the junkyard from total electical failures well into the 2010's.

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

Of course there is always the option of making it a mid-engined car using an entire FWD Ecotec with 5-speed from say a Cobalt. Then there would be plenty of room for fuel up front!

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

My old MGB had a Rover 3.5 V-8, but for a $500 build, that couldn’t happen. Too many “bits” to buy which would blow the budget.

I’m thinking that just grabbing a Mustang or Camaro should get me most of what I will need.

As for a FWD to mid-engine swap, it would be cool, but believe it or not, this $50 MGB is too nice to cut up for that nonsense.

And the search continues........

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

I think OP needs an indoctrination to "the spirit of Lemons" from the experienced here - and that's not me. But I'll chime in anyway with a summary of what I've read here.

Over budget won't prevent you from racing, you'll just get penalty laps.

Regarding your build, the general consensus here seems to be: 'do whatever you want and have fun with it; this is something the judges would like to see in the race.'

As long as it passes tech.

Suggest build questions go to John Pagel, especially cage questions.

If people can put a motorcycle engine in a Geo and race, you can do this.

I, for one, will be interested in following your build progress. I hope to see pictures

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

After my experience with the SD1, not a fan of a stock Rover 3.5 in Lemons duty.  Offhand, I can't think of any of the others that haven't blown up in Lemons.  Seems like most have been replaced by something else.  The TR8/SD1 trans is blow uppy too.  A cheap aluminum V8 sounds great in theory but that one in practice, not so much.  It doesn't make much power but does make ok torque.  I'm still thinking Ecotec but 2.3T sounds interesting as well.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

So, I had a discussion with my brother about setting out on this project or not. He has a totally different take on what to build. He wants to buy a nice, reliable and fast car for $X, sell off all of the valuable pieces to bring down the net cost to the $500 or even less and then build the car to the rule set. My thinking is 180* opposite. I’m thinking buying a locally crashed/trashed/rusted driveline donor and spending the time to build the MGB into a unreliable mechanical and electrical cobbled mess that at least runs reliably and will be a conversation piece whenever anyone looks at and laughs at it.

I think my idea is more aligned with what I think Lemons is and he is thinking more GrassRoots MotorSports Challenge and SCCA a racing. I want to get out and have fun, he wants to go out, race and win. We’ve been there and done that, the serious racing thing and we are both over it so I thought. Maybe he isn’t. Problem is, I’m not building a car, doing all the work only to be a 1 person team and end up selling it. I’d rather just spend the time and $$$ finishing my Corvette Kart and run trackdays/hillclimbs as time allows. If it isn’t going to be fun, I won’t even begin to turn the first bolt.

18 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2020-12-06 03:48 PM)

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

[edited]
The denouement of the film Trading Places:

Butler:
Do you want the lobster, or the cracked crab for lunch, sir?


Coleman [_not_ Billy Ray], to Bikini-clad girlfriend:
What do you think?


Bikini-clad girlfriend:
Can't we have both?

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

In my late night search for a driveline, I’ve found the following:

1. Ford Ranger 2.3 and 5-speed
2. 1998 Camaro 3.8 and 5-speed
3. An entire running/driving Ford Thunderbird SuperCoupe 3.8 V-6 supercharged

I’m thinking #3 is a “another-brainer”, but by the time we figure out when and if this build is going to happen, it will be gone.

Re: MGB, am I crazy to even begin going down this rabbit hole????

w650gb500 wrote:

In my late night search for a driveline, I’ve found the following:

1. Ford Ranger 2.3 and 5-speed
2. 1998 Camaro 3.8 and 5-speed
3. An entire running/driving Ford Thunderbird SuperCoupe 3.8 V-6 supercharged

I’m thinking #3 is a “another-brainer”, but by the time we figure out when and if this build is going to happen, it will be gone.

There is already a Ranger-powered MGB-GT running in Lemons. It makes good-enough power and torque for the chassis, although they discovered very quickly that also means they ran the car out of brake pads on their first weekend, which is absolutely a thing that happens with swaps like this.

The Ranger engine also has leaves a little room in the engine bay to work on the thing:

http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LMIF19/637-IMG_9778.jpg

I can't imagine a GM 3.8 fitting in that engine bay and the Essex is also a 90-degree V6, but if you can make it happen and that's what you want to do, then go for it.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com