Topic: How bad an idea is a T-5?

We're on the last legs of our motor and transmission.  I'm fairly confident I want to drop a 302 and T-5 in the truck.  After lots of reading, it sounds like this is a poor choice.  So of course, we're going to push forward with it.  It sounds like 5th gear is the biggest concern.  There's a lot of differences in T-5s.  I'm currently looking at using one from a 94/95 mustang GT. It sounds like there's some differences in these models that will give us a shot at surviving.  Someother things we're planning on.

Keep RPMs <4500.
Replace aluminum bearing retainer with a steel one
Set the preload properly
Scuff the bronze syncros
Granny shift

Any other ideas out there?

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Don't ever use 5th.  It is over-hung.  We had the best luck with World Class T5s, and I am using  "best" loosely.  We couldn't keep the third gear synchros alive.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

we use a T5 in our 305 Firebird, no issues. Our 305 is not stock. No issues. We don't use 5th and shift at 5600-5800 sometimes. Just don't use it to slow down and don't bang gears like you are at the drag strip.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

4 (edited by jimbbski 2021-02-11 01:25 PM)

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Good info so far.  Unless your run a track like Road America or some other track where you can hit speeds of 120 mph or higher you should be able to gear your car so that you only need 4th gear for the fastest parts.  But really 5th gear is not the issue in T5's. By the time you're in 5th your going over 100 mph and you are not going to break it.  I raced a 1993 Cobra Mustang for a few years. I had about 325  HP and with a 3.73 gear and .80 5th gear ratio it would do 140 mph at 6K rpm.   I used 5th at quite a number of tracks that I ran. Never a problem.  On the other hand 3 gear is the weak link in a T5. You spend a lot of time shifting into or out of 3rd gear and if your aren't smooth you will break it.  I did, but only after 6-7 years of  track days and club races.

The problem is not all of your drivers will take the time to up shift and down shift smoothly, and as mentioned,  don't use the trans to slow the car. This is the main reason 3rd gear breaks most often in T5's. Very few tracks have a slow turn that requires a downshift to 2nd so almost all turns require a downshift to 3rd and that's where the most stress occur. 

Get a good aftermarket shifter with shift stops and toss the stock one. A steel input shaft bearing retainer is nice but not necessary unless the stock one is damaged.  Bearing preload is easy to set but you need a shim kit.
And all World Class T5 do not have bronze syncros except for 5th gear, which you shouldn't need.
You could even remove the two gears that 5th comprises and save the small amount of drag they have.

Not there are various versions of the T5. The 94-95 version is different than the ones that came in the Fox Mustangs.  The main difference is the input shaft is longer so you also need the matching bell housing from the car or you may end up with the trans hitting the back of the crankshaft before you can tighten up all of the trans to bell bolts. You can swap input shafts.  A Fox T5 shaft in place of the SN95 input shaft as long as they both have the same number of gear teeth.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Thanks for the tips.  We plan to pull the engine and trans out of the same vehicle.  Need to figure out if we want to use the S-10 tail housing (Due to shifter positioning).  The 93-95 cobra platform also plays into our long term strategy with it's GT40 parts.  We will run at Buttonwillow and Thunderhill so likely we will be using 5th.  Whether stock or aftermarket, I want a cam that makes it's power down low so I don't anticipate spending much time above 5K RPMs.  We did use 2nd at Buttonwillow and I still am trying to get the feel of downshifting 2 gears into a corner. 

Smoothness is not my specialty, mostly because 75% of my miles driving a stick shift I got from our first race.  Only wheel time will fix that. 

I'm surprised you guys aren't using 5th more.  We are currently 225/45/15 which do a mile every 915 revs.  We will likely move to a 225/45/17 (841 revs/mile).  We have have a 3.73 in the rear.    5000 RPM puts us at 88MPH vs 95MPH on the 17s.  Even with the stock untouched 2.9L we ran out of gear way before the end of the long straight at Buttonwillow.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

There aren't many cams that will "make their power down low" beyond the factory cams.  The Cobra spec. cams were designed by Ford to make more torque & HP since the GT40 heads are a bit bigger then the E7 heads and they made less torque at lower RPM's but much more at rpm's rose.
I would port the GT40 heads some. The exhaust side needs the most work. There's a bump in the port floor that can re removed with little effort and increases flow quite a bit. If the heads have the 1.7 aluminum roller rockers then your golden!  Mill the head to reduce head chamber size to 58-60 CC. You shouldn't need to mill the intake

. Peak power on these engine stock was around  5400 rpms but peak torque occurred much lower. Keep the revs below 5K or even 4.7K and it should live. There have been many 5.0 engine in Lemons.  Not all have lived but most have and have done well.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Thanks, Jim.  I'm sure this won't be the last time I reach out.  Sounds like were headed in the right direction.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Us at NJMP in our 84 T/A (RIP) same drivetrain in the 88 now. 305, T-5, 3.42 gears. 4th in long straight 3rd the rest of the track for the most part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpZHzZYXhJQ&t=368s

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

We intentionally geared down the rear axle as to not use 5th. An 8.8” 3.08 ring & pinion from grandpas Grand Marquis was pocket change at the junkyard.

351w with a truck cam and GT40 heads, in a long-wheelbase fox. Build to your powertrain’s strengths.

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!

10 (edited by Guildenstern 2021-02-15 04:29 AM)

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Bricoop wrote:

We're on the last legs of our motor and transmission.  I'm fairly confident I want to drop a 302 and T-5 in the truck.  After lots of reading, it sounds like this is a poor choice.  So of course, we're going to push forward with it.  It sounds like 5th gear is the biggest concern.  There's a lot of differences in T-5s.  I'm currently looking at using one from a 94/95 mustang GT. It sounds like there's some differences in these models that will give us a shot at surviving.  Someother things we're planning on.

Keep RPMs <4500.
Replace aluminum bearing retainer with a steel one
Set the preload properly
Scuff the bronze syncros
Granny shift

Any other ideas out there?

Use the Carbon fibre replacement Synchros. 1-2 2-3 3-4 are friction compound NOT brass. So no using Gearbox oil, and Pre-Soak them to get goodness in all the fibers.

Universal industry recommendation is Redline D4 ATF as it's compatible with the 5th gear synchro, and provides proper friction modifier for the Clutch surface like other Synchros while being stable at High temp.

Also if you're in there, change the Fork pads, they get brittle and you don't want to end up stuck in a gear. Also use the correct Anerobic sealant NOT RTV. A transmission assembly lube will be your friend too. We used Dr. Tranny which sounds way hotter than it actually is. But is gooey enough to keep the needle bearings and such guked together while putting the shaft back in...........None of this is as hot as it sounds...

We used SA Design SA103 "How to Rebuild and Modify High-Performance Manual Transmissions By Paul Cangialosi https://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Modify- … 1934709298 And our T-5 has been happy since the rebuild 3-4 races ago.

They're good to about 350 HP as a world class like from 90's Mustang. And like other's I'll also repeat. 5th gear sucks for racing. V8's came with a 0.68, the turbo 4 had a 0.79 but much harder to find. There's also an available 0.80 out there for $100 https://www.5speeds.com/cart/index.php? … duct_id=65 Which I wish we put in when we did ours. Seriously 0,68 belongs nowhere near a track. And even then, the 5th synchro sucks if you wound out 4th gear, so it takes forever to shift, and nobody makes JUST a regular helical dog 5th. By the time you get it in 5th you'll have lost enough momentum to need to be back in 4th.

https://www.moderndriveline.com/the-man … of-the-t5/

http://www.britishv8.org/articles/borg- … d-tags.htm

https://www.thegearbox.org/T5.html

https://www.5speeds.com/cart/index.php? … duct_id=61

Oh and in most Mustang T-5's......NO REVERSE BRAKE! you will fight and grind the bastard into reverse every time.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

One word on the 0.80 ratio 5th gear that is out there.  On most ads I've seen there is fine print that will state that the 0.80 ratio only works with the late model T5's with the 2.95 first gear!  Put that 5th gear set in a regular Fox T5 with 3.35 first and you get something very close to 1.1. I think it's something like 0.95. Still an overdrive but not much. The gear set is cheap enough but I thought I just let you know before you go and buy a set.  The exact ratio you get out of a 5th gear set depends on what the gear tooth count is on the input shaft gear and the matching gear on the counter shaft cluster gear. And finally the GM version of the T5 had no interchangeable parts with the Ford version other than the levers, and misc. The shafts and gears do not swap.

I had very good luck with Mobil 1 syn. ATF. It's all I've used in my T5's since 1986!  Also I never had issues with 5th gear. Shifting into or out of was never a problem. IF your trans has this issue I'd just get  new syncros for 5th gear. They are cheap compared to the 1-2 or 3-4 sets and way easier to change!

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Honestly 0.95 would be even better. 4th for us runs out about 2/3 of the way down most of the long straights we race. Even another 5 mph of head room would be swell.

And it is a new synchro. We just swear at it and move on.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

We also went with a hydraulic throughout bearing.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

14 (edited by Bricoop 2021-02-17 09:59 AM)

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Mr.Yuck wrote:

We also went with a hydraulic throughout bearing.

Do you have any links?  The truck has a hydraulic clutch.  Most swaps seem to use an external slave, many seem a little sketchy.  Which seems to be the schtick around here.

https://www.ranger-forums.com/attachments/8-cylinder-tech-34/165317d1501404108-302-swap-into-85-ranger-tremec-side.jpg

15 (edited by jimbbski 2021-02-18 09:53 AM)

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

An alternative way to install a hydro TOB set up from a GM T5. All you need is input shaft bearing retainer off of it.  IT will bolt on to most any T5.  IT looks very different from a Ford bearing retainer. It has provisions for a slave cylinder so that it acts directly on the pressure plate springs. Not all GM T5s has a Hydro TOB but most of the V6 & small V8 models did.
Ford went to a similar set up starting in 2005.

There are also aftermarket conversions but the prices are not Lemons friendly.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Bricoop wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

We also went with a hydraulic throughout bearing.

Do you have any links?  The truck has a hydraulic clutch.  Most swaps seem to use an external slave, many seem a little sketchy.  Which seems to be the schtick around here.

https://www.ranger-forums.com/attachments/8-cylinder-tech-34/165317d1501404108-302-swap-into-85-ranger-tremec-side.jpg

not sure of the part number, I think we got ours from speedway. I'll see if I can find the link/part number. But we are running a GM unit

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Hey, not to be the guy that comes in and answers a question nobody asks, but we run a 302 with the toploader four speed, and we really like it. We've done essentially nothing to it. That said, we did rebuild it (just new rollers, cheaped out and reused the bearings) because we had to helicoil a through-hole into the case and didn't trust ourselves not to get shavings in there. We do have a hydraulic throwout bearing from the previous owners of the car.

The other posts explain pretty well how the spread between the fourth and fifth isn't that useful on the track. Consider a five speed is just a four speed with extra bits that don't help you unless you're trying to drop engine speed for gas mileage. Sure a T5 is like 75lbs and the toploader is like 100lbs, but the four speed is rather bulletproof and we're putting 279hp to the wheels and over 300 ft/lbs of torque. For reference, we run a 3.31 rear and run out of motor at about 120. Another gear wouldn't really get us much, maybe a rear end change or taller tires would.

My point is you can totally build the T5s to work for you, but if you haven't considered the toploaders, give them a beer or two's consideration.

Unless you race and source parts from the Pacific Northwest, in which case run a M5OD.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

It's a good point, if you have the room on the side for it, a toploader is a good option.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

wheresthebeef wrote:

Hey, not to be the guy that comes in and answers a question nobody asks, but we run a 302 with the toploader four speed, and we really like it. We've done essentially nothing to it. That said, we did rebuild it (just new rollers, cheaped out and reused the bearings) because we had to helicoil a through-hole into the case and didn't trust ourselves not to get shavings in there. We do have a hydraulic throwout bearing from the previous owners of the car.

The other posts explain pretty well how the spread between the fourth and fifth isn't that useful on the track. Consider a five speed is just a four speed with extra bits that don't help you unless you're trying to drop engine speed for gas mileage. Sure a T5 is like 75lbs and the toploader is like 100lbs, but the four speed is rather bulletproof and we're putting 279hp to the wheels and over 300 ft/lbs of torque. For reference, we run a 3.31 rear and run out of motor at about 120. Another gear wouldn't really get us much, maybe a rear end change or taller tires would.

My point is you can totally build the T5s to work for you, but if you haven't considered the toploaders, give them a beer or two's consideration.

Unless you race and source parts from the Pacific Northwest, in which case run a M5OD.

The top loader is a very interesting idea.  Hadn't thought about it.  The ranger currently has a M5OD in it.  I'm surprised it could hold up to a 302?

We currently run a 3.73 with on 225/45/15.  I think we're going to have to move to a much taller rear gear if we keep the 15" wheels.  5000 RPM puts us only at 88MPH.  A 3.08 puts us at  106 MPH and 2.73 120MPH  (Using 4th gear 1.00)

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

Bricoop wrote:

The top loader is a very interesting idea.  Hadn't thought about it.  The ranger currently has a M5OD in it.  I'm surprised it could hold up to a 302?

There are two variants of the m5od, the "R1 light duty" and "R2 medium duty"
You two might be talking about different transmissions.

Re: How bad an idea is a T-5?

We now run a 2.73 in our t bird, and have eliminated any need for 5th.  A 4 speed would be ideal, but so far, our 94 T5 is holding up. 

Rev limited to 4600, as its an untouched 200,000 + mile engine with about a dozen races on it.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!