Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

mharrell wrote:
cheseroo wrote:
TWB503 wrote:

<snip>.....So subtract the fuel cell and just use the tank, up the fillers to two,

No, no, no.  Absolutely not legal to modify a stock tank.  I think even with a fuel cell you would get smacked down for having two fillers.

I think from context that TWB503 is responding to TheEngineer's comment by expressing a desire to add a second fuel jug to the shopping list, not a second filler tube to the fuel tank. It's still worthwhile to keep in mind that stock fuel systems can't be modified, though.

What I was saying is I was GOING to buy a fuel cell from the website, but now I'm thinking I shouldn't

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

We are all trying to tell you slow down junior.  Lemons is an endurance event.  Not a sprint.  Building a car even more so than the event.    Slow down.  More research.  Visit a race.  Visit a team.  Save $3000 to $5000.  You are gonna need it.  Dont buy parts until you have the car.  The cell you buy today might not fit in the car you find tomorrow

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

We all want you to join us.  We want you in the league for years and years.  The fastest way to extinguish your fire is to piss a bunch of money and time away.  Please learn from us, please save up 3-5k.  Please keep asking questions.   We are so glad you are here.  We all hope to meet you in the pits real soon

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

29 (edited by bobnowoc 2021-10-06 09:28 PM)

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

Also.  You seam fixated on driving this race.  Hold on.  The 2022 schedule will come out soon.  You will have plenty of time to do this right.  Cheers

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

bobnowoc wrote:

We are all trying to tell you slow down junior.  Lemons is an endurance event.  Not a sprint.  Building a car even more so than the event.    Slow down.  More research.  Visit a race.  Visit a team.  Save $3000 to $5000.  You are gonna need it.  Dont buy parts until you have the car.  The cell you buy today might not fit in the car you find tomorrow

Here's my game plan:
October 2021:
- Make general list of parts and expenses, search for car
- Continue asking stupid questions on forum
- Work more hours and allocate funds (I also set up a GoFundMe, but I'm not expecting to get much, if any, from that
November 2021:
- Visit Houston for race weekend, try to get in touch with a team who will let me hang out with them and ask them questions
-Expected to find a car at this point, obtain car and start making list of car-specific parts, sort out costs
-Buy parts as needed
December 2021:
-Hopefully have all the parts I need, continue prepping car
2022:
- Look for race I can attend. See where our progress stands at that point, attempt to enter.


anything missing?

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

Buy a (nearly) complete car. Trust me. It’ll be cheaper and almost guarantee you’ll race in 2022.

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

Bricoop wrote:

Buy a (nearly) complete car. Trust me. It’ll be cheaper and almost guarantee you’ll race in 2022.

I'm hoping to go down that path. While tooling around for a month to get a car running and legal sounds fun, I know it'll be cheaper to buy one nearly ready, and I won't lose 5 years worth of stress! I've been digging through the forums and, ironically enough, a lot of the stuff listed on the for sale page is like, $1500. What's the bloody point? So, if anyone has some recommendations on cars I can get that are (almost) ready to race that are actually 500 or less and within.. I'd say 500 miles of DFW, let me know smile

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

TW.  I am so glad you posted that.  Now we see the misconception.

Your timeline is great.  Your budget is off

Lemons is cheapER racing.  Nothing is cheap racing.

The $500 budget is a ballpark fotr the car body, engine, trans and suspension.

You know, like a worn out craigslist car.
The "$500 budget" rule is to get you started.

These items are necessary, but exempt from the rule.
Rollcage 0-$2000
Race seat $100-$700
Harness $100
Fire suppression $400
Brakes
Tires
Time spent


The reason old prepped race cars are $1500 is you are paying $500 for the car, $500 for the builders effort and $500 for safety equipment.

A built car is not gonna be sold at $500.

$1500 to $5000 are normal prices for a used Lemons race car.

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

mharrell wrote:
cheseroo wrote:
TWB503 wrote:

<snip>.....So subtract the fuel cell and just use the tank, up the fillers to two,

No, no, no.  Absolutely not legal to modify a stock tank.  I think even with a fuel cell you would get smacked down for having two fillers.

I think from context that TWB503 is responding to TheEngineer's comment by expressing a desire to add a second fuel jug to the shopping list, not a second filler tube to the fuel tank. It's still worthwhile to keep in mind that stock fuel systems can't be modified, though.

Edit: As far as the theoretical installation of a second filler tube, I don't think Tech would like it even on a fuel cell and there's still the limitation that, for hot pit fueling, a team can only have one fuel jug over the wall at a time anyway...

I think dual filler necks is so the cell can be filled from either side, not to get fuel in faster. I have seen it on a few cars in Lemons and Champcar.  If the OP is only going to race Lemons a cell is the way to go, anybody can run up to 24 gallons. In Champ you are limited to 2+ stock and 1/2 gal overflow and that is it.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

bobnowoc wrote:

TW.  I am so glad you posted that.  Now we see the misconception.

Your timeline is great.  Your budget is off

Lemons is cheapER racing.  Nothing is cheap racing.

The $500 budget is a ballpark fotr the car body, engine, trans and suspension.

You know, like a worn out craigslist car.
The "$500 budget" rule is to get you started.

These items are necessary, but exempt from the rule.
Rollcage 0-$2000
Race seat $100-$700
Harness $100
Fire suppression $400
Brakes
Tires
Time spent


The reason old prepped race cars are $1500 is you are paying $500 for the car, $500 for the builders effort and $500 for safety equipment.

A built car is not gonna be sold at $500.

$1500 to $5000 are normal prices for a used Lemons race car.

This helps clear things up, thanks. So, a 1500/2000 car is perfectly legal?

36 (edited by Bricoop 2021-10-07 07:55 AM)

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

TWB503 wrote:
Bricoop wrote:

Buy a (nearly) complete car. Trust me. It’ll be cheaper and almost guarantee you’ll race in 2022.

I'm hoping to go down that path. While tooling around for a month to get a car running and legal sounds fun, I know it'll be cheaper to buy one nearly ready, and I won't lose 5 years worth of stress! I've been digging through the forums and, ironically enough, a lot of the stuff listed on the for sale page is like, $1500. What's the bloody point? So, if anyone has some recommendations on cars I can get that are (almost) ready to race that are actually 500 or less and within.. I'd say 500 miles of DFW, let me know smile

The motto I like to use is "I head into everything with a full tank of optimism."  Your tank appears to be overflowing with optimism.

First, budget:  Expect to spend $5K to showup to your first race, including your personal safety gear.  A proper rollcage is $2-3K.  I'd recommend you establish a team of qualified mechanics/fabricators and split the cost.

Second, timeline:  You cannot get a car ready in a month.  If it were your fulltime job, are an experienced fabricator, and get all the parts in advance, you might be able to do it in a month.  Everything takes longer than you think it should.  Realistically, you're looking at closer to 3-6 months to build a car. 

Your best bet is to join citrus racers on Facebook, setup craigslist alerts, and monitor the cars for sale forum here. 

Racing is expensive and a giant pain in the ass.  But nothing brings me more joy than wheel to wheel racing and passing Miatas.

80%+ of your budget will be spent on safety equipment.  Safety equipment is exempt from the $500 rule.  As far as everything goes, staying under that $500 budget should be the least of your concerns.  You can spend as much as you want on the car.  The worst thing that can happen is penalty laps. 

FINALLY, READ THE RULEBOOK.  READ IT AGAIN NEXT WEEK.  Many of your questions are answered there.

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

Mr.Yuck wrote:
mharrell wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

No, no, no.  Absolutely not legal to modify a stock tank.  I think even with a fuel cell you would get smacked down for having two fillers.

I think from context that TWB503 is responding to TheEngineer's comment by expressing a desire to add a second fuel jug to the shopping list, not a second filler tube to the fuel tank. It's still worthwhile to keep in mind that stock fuel systems can't be modified, though.

Edit: As far as the theoretical installation of a second filler tube, I don't think Tech would like it even on a fuel cell and there's still the limitation that, for hot pit fueling, a team can only have one fuel jug over the wall at a time anyway...

I think dual filler necks is so the cell can be filled from either side, not to get fuel in faster. I have seen it on a few cars in Lemons and Champcar.  If the OP is only going to race Lemons a cell is the way to go, anybody can run up to 24 gallons. In Champ you are limited to 2+ stock and 1/2 gal overflow and that is it.

While it would be nice to compete in other series, I think I’m gonna just stick to Lemons for at least a few years. So, fuel cell?

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

TWB503 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
mharrell wrote:

I think from context that TWB503 is responding to TheEngineer's comment by expressing a desire to add a second fuel jug to the shopping list, not a second filler tube to the fuel tank. It's still worthwhile to keep in mind that stock fuel systems can't be modified, though.

Edit: As far as the theoretical installation of a second filler tube, I don't think Tech would like it even on a fuel cell and there's still the limitation that, for hot pit fueling, a team can only have one fuel jug over the wall at a time anyway...

I think dual filler necks is so the cell can be filled from either side, not to get fuel in faster. I have seen it on a few cars in Lemons and Champcar.  If the OP is only going to race Lemons a cell is the way to go, anybody can run up to 24 gallons. In Champ you are limited to 2+ stock and 1/2 gal overflow and that is it.

While it would be nice to compete in other series, I think I’m gonna just stick to Lemons for at least a few years. So, fuel cell?

NO-Focus on bare minimum.  There is no reason for you to be considering a fuel cell.

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

Bricoop wrote:
TWB503 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

I think dual filler necks is so the cell can be filled from either side, not to get fuel in faster. I have seen it on a few cars in Lemons and Champcar.  If the OP is only going to race Lemons a cell is the way to go, anybody can run up to 24 gallons. In Champ you are limited to 2+ stock and 1/2 gal overflow and that is it.

While it would be nice to compete in other series, I think I’m gonna just stick to Lemons for at least a few years. So, fuel cell?

NO-Focus on bare minimum.  There is no reason for you to be considering a fuel cell.

Noted. Have my eyes on an RX7 that last raced in Lemons in Nov 2019, so this’ll make things easier. I’ve got my eyes on the car, just need to get the funding. If I have any spare money, I’ll consider a fuel cell

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

TWB503 wrote:
Bricoop wrote:
TWB503 wrote:

While it would be nice to compete in other series, I think I’m gonna just stick to Lemons for at least a few years. So, fuel cell?

NO-Focus on bare minimum.  There is no reason for you to be considering a fuel cell.

Noted. Have my eyes on an RX7 that last raced in Lemons in Nov 2019, so this’ll make things easier. I’ve got my eyes on the car, just need to get the funding. If I have any spare money, I’ll consider a fuel cell

There is really no need to even consider a fuel cell at this stage of your career...Unless you have a spare $4000.00 laying around.
The only thing a fuel cell will offer is (slightly) faster fuel stops,and maybe a slight increase in fuel capacity.All that doesn't do you a damn bit of good if your car is not on track.Get your car sourced,sorted and reliable first.There is a learning curve involved with the installation of a cell...it usually takes a few races to work out all the bugs.The stock fuel system will serve you well until you get to the point that fuel capacity is what is holding you back from dominating the field.....

40+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

I'd like to chime in as someone who is currently in the process of building a car myself for the December 4-5 Sonoma Race. Here is my experience so far on expenses and time:

Expenses:

  • Car: $500 (Ford Focus)

  • Maintenance: $500 - oil change, spark plugs, valve cover gasket, etc. excluding brakes

  • Safety items: ~$4,000 - including roll cage, new brake rotors and pads all around, kill switch, harness, etc. Everything to pass tech inspection.

That's $5,000 to simply get the car running and to pass tech. Want a cool quick release steering wheel? Add more money. Need a mechanic to do some work? Add more money. Want a second set of wheels and tires? More money.

And this is all for a 2005 Ford Focus, which are super plentiful in junkyards, easy (and cheap!) to find parts at your local O'Reilly's/AutoZone, and with me doing every single bit of work except for welding the roll cage.

I'd also like to point out that I didn't buy the cheapest items, but I also didn't buy the most expensive items. I spent more money on safety items, and stuck with middle of the road stuff everywhere else as an attempt to get some quality for a reasonable price. I spent days waiting for stuff to go on sale or finding the one place to get a set of front rotors for 30% off. Which brings me to time.

Time:
I bought this car in early June, six months out from the race. I'm just getting the last of it done now, maybe 10 days to 2 weeks behind my original schedule. I work on this car every weekend, and maybe 2-3 nights for a couple of hours during the week, and have been since early August. This isn't my first car wrenching experience, but it's always surprising how quickly time gets eaten up by dumb stuff, like having to go to the hardware store yet again for some bit or bob.  The roll cage needed to be scheduled 2 months out. Parts take time to arrive. Going to the junkyard for what you want is, at the very least, one whole weekend morning, and you will need to go multiple times.

I'd also like to point out here that I planned most of this before I started, including what should be done and in which order, to maximize efficiency (don't judge me, this is what I do). I was very organized with my time in the sense that I knew what else I could be doing while I was waiting for a specific part or some safety equipment. For example, I had to replace a motor mount, and since I was disassembling most of the coolant system, I drained and replaced the coolant at the same time. I did this as efficiently as I think is possible.

Finally, I'll say that I personally think building the car was/is as much fun as racing the car, so I didn't want to go buy a pre-loved Lemons car. I have enjoyed this experience, and there is no bit of this car that I don't know, or haven't touched. From my calculations, I think Lemons is still less expensive than competing in almost any other racing series, in the sense of minutes driven per dollar, but it takes time and some money to do this right - which ultimately translates into passing tech and getting on the track.

#22 Gas Relief Team Slowtus Ford Focus

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

TWB503 wrote:

This helps clear things up, thanks. So, a 1500/2000 car is perfectly legal?

In general, when you purchase a car that has recently competed in Lemons, the car will be legal. If you have any concerns about the car being legal, send the info to judge Phil judgephil@24hoursoflemons.com and ask him if the car will meet the basic $500 rule.

If you purchase a car that competed in Lemons years ago, it may need work to bring it up to the current requirements...roll cage updates, maybe fire suppression, etc.

Also, a pre-raced car may not come with everything you need. For example, you need a fire suppression system, but the team selling a previously raced car may have moved their fire suppression system to their new car.

How will you know if the car has everything? Read the rules and the tech sheet and see if the car will meet the requirements: https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/ … .7_PDF.pdf

I've done two races now in the Caliber, and we've done well had a great time. My team has 100+ hours into car work/prep. I've read the rules a few dozen times, a put in quite a bit of effort to make it happen.

One option to consider is to join a team for a single race so you get a good idea of what is needed, and then go get your team and car together.

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

TWB503 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
mharrell wrote:

I think from context that TWB503 is responding to TheEngineer's comment by expressing a desire to add a second fuel jug to the shopping list, not a second filler tube to the fuel tank. It's still worthwhile to keep in mind that stock fuel systems can't be modified, though.

Edit: As far as the theoretical installation of a second filler tube, I don't think Tech would like it even on a fuel cell and there's still the limitation that, for hot pit fueling, a team can only have one fuel jug over the wall at a time anyway...

I think dual filler necks is so the cell can be filled from either side, not to get fuel in faster. I have seen it on a few cars in Lemons and Champcar.  If the OP is only going to race Lemons a cell is the way to go, anybody can run up to 24 gallons. In Champ you are limited to 2+ stock and 1/2 gal overflow and that is it.

While it would be nice to compete in other series, I think I’m gonna just stick to Lemons for at least a few years. So, fuel cell?

Only if you want to spend a bunch of money. Most cars use a stock tank.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

No fuel cell.  No.  Dont need it.  Dont do it

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

45 (edited by bobnowoc 2021-10-07 03:49 PM)

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

I bought a pre raced car for under $1000 and still needed $2000 in repairs.  Then $1000+ in entry fees.    And $1000+ in safety equipment for us to wear.

I love to talk about this.

I emailed you my phone number.  Cheers

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

46 (edited by Type44 2021-10-07 08:33 PM)

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

Bricoop wrote:
TWB503 wrote:
Bricoop wrote:

Buy a (nearly) complete car. Trust me. It’ll be cheaper and almost guarantee you’ll race in 2022.

I'm hoping to go down that path. While tooling around for a month to get a car running and legal sounds fun, I know it'll be cheaper to buy one nearly ready, and I won't lose 5 years worth of stress! I've been digging through the forums and, ironically enough, a lot of the stuff listed on the for sale page is like, $1500. What's the bloody point? So, if anyone has some recommendations on cars I can get that are (almost) ready to race that are actually 500 or less and within.. I'd say 500 miles of DFW, let me know smile

The motto I like to use is "I head into everything with a full tank of optimism."  Your tank appears to be overflowing with optimism.

First, budget:  Expect to spend $5K to showup to your first race, including your personal safety gear.  A proper rollcage is $2-3K.  I'd recommend you establish a team of qualified mechanics/fabricators and split the cost.

Second, timeline:  You cannot get a car ready in a month.  If it were your fulltime job, are an experienced fabricator, and get all the parts in advance, you might be able to do it in a month.  Everything takes longer than you think it should.  Realistically, you're looking at closer to 3-6 months to build a car. 

Your best bet is to join citrus racers on Facebook, setup craigslist alerts, and monitor the cars for sale forum here. 

Racing is expensive and a giant pain in the ass.  But nothing brings me more joy than wheel to wheel racing and passing Miatas.

80%+ of your budget will be spent on safety equipment.  Safety equipment is exempt from the $500 rule.  As far as everything goes, staying under that $500 budget should be the least of your concerns.  You can spend as much as you want on the car.  The worst thing that can happen is penalty laps. 

FINALLY, READ THE RULEBOOK.  READ IT AGAIN NEXT WEEK.  Many of your questions are answered there.

This.

I’m trying to get a veteran Lemons car ready to race again (yes, I’m feeling Lucky) and you’re not going to get there this month or next. Everything takes longer than you plan for it taking…

#111 Tradewinds Tribesmen VW Passat Inde ‘20 (‘21 too)
#427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, (‘21)Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15,'17, '18. Inde '16,'17,'18,’19. Other foolishness: Finisher of Hell on Wheels (Jaguar) IOE (Humber)

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

Thanks all for the replies (why did I stop getting email notifications?)
Hoping I can find me a car very soon. However, with the way thing are going, it will probably be a while, sigh. The only car I can see right now is a small-block swapped RX7 that last competed in Lemons in 2019. Sounds good! ….$3500.. So I guess I’ll have to look around for the next few months, enlist the help of some others to help me look for a car. Craigslist is no help, can’t find anything that isn’t going to be a total scrapheap for $500 or less (LITERAL rustbox, will spend $10k getting running, and THEN there’s race prep, not worth it) So right now my only hope is the car selling section of this form, but they’re either really far away (to the point where it would be VERY difficult to get it back to Plano), or they’re like $3500, which will screw up my budget.

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

bobnowoc wrote:

I bought a pre raced car for under $1000 and still needed $2000 in repairs.  Then $1000+ in entry fees.    And $1000+ in safety equipment for us to wear.

I love to talk about this.

I emailed you my phone number.  Cheers

You are very welcome to text me, however I will hang up on any numbers I don’t recognize, so if you’d like to phone call instead of text, let’s schedule a time

49 (edited by fleming95 2021-10-08 10:30 AM)

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

TWB503 wrote:

Thanks all for the replies (why did I stop getting email notifications?)

...Craigslist is no help, can’t find anything that isn’t going to be a total scrapheap for $500 or less (LITERAL rustbox, will spend $10k getting running...

Bit of a threadjack, but what's up with beater car prices in (at least) Texas?

Thought there'd be good pickin's via CL - but there's not as much as I'd expect given how large the Dallas area is (although I did find a $650 Fiat 500 Sport that looks interesting) -

- whereas in the SF Bay there's the usual $250 1996 Dodge Intrepid (runs) and $750 TR7 (ran when parked in 1989) and $800 2011 BMW 328i having had a car fire in the trunk (no key, imagine the $500carmyass!1!!1 when you showed up)...

Is it the Cali smog and registration requirements?

But back to the topic.  Had anyone linked this previous forum thread, that's a good read about car costs?:

https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=36498

Re: What should I expect to spend, and where?

fleming95 wrote:
TWB503 wrote:

Thanks all for the replies (why did I stop getting email notifications?)

...Craigslist is no help, can’t find anything that isn’t going to be a total scrapheap for $500 or less (LITERAL rustbox, will spend $10k getting running...

Bit of a threadjack, but what's up with beater car prices in (at least) Texas?

Thought there'd be good pickin's via CL - but there's not as much as I'd expect given how large the Dallas area is (although I did find a $650 Fiat 500 Sport that looks interesting) -

- whereas in the SF Bay there's the usual $250 1996 Dodge Intrepid (runs) and $750 TR7 (ran when parked in 1989) and $800 2011 BMW 328i having had a car fire in the trunk (no key, imagine the $500carmyass!1!!1 when you showed up)...

Is it the Cali smog and registration requirements?

But back to the topic.  Had anyone linked this previous forum thread, that's a good read about car costs?:

https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=36498

Just ran it through, seems like now I know how much I need to spend, I just need to get the money. I've been promoting a GoFundMe on social media, but unsurprisingly, nobody has donated. So I guess I'm on my own here.

And yeah, I'm p much SOL finding a good Lemons car in texas