1 (edited by Bricoop 2022-03-15 12:52 PM)

Topic: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

We left Buttonwillow last year with a frame that had more bends than an Annie’s pretzel.  A cutoff wheel, a metal glue machine, a donor truck, and some pry bars were all that was needed to attach a new front clip.  We headed out for practice Friday and shockingly, everything worked…well most everything. 

As some background we’ve had electrical issues every single race.  We have never finished a race with the same alternator that showed up to the track, we’re 3 for 3.  This week’s gremlin was a fuse hidden in the birds nest of a wiring harness that controlled the radiator fan.  An excessive amount of locktite appears to have dripped into temp control unit. Considering this was the only fix needed after a massive wreck, we were pretty proud of ourselves.
 
Saturday started out crazy.  Lots of yellows and a higher-than-normal number of teams trying to win the race in the first session.  45 minutes in, someone stood on the brakes exiting the esses (a full throttle area).  Our driver punched the brakes and the truck immediately pitched sideways due to the new strip of asphalt his right side tires were on.  The judge kicked our driver out of the car.  It was overly harsh for 45 minutes into the day and avoiding a wreck.  However, given the general dickishness of the driving on Saturday, we don’t blame ‘em.  Next driver got dressed faster than when his high school girlfriend’s dad got home from work early.  We finished out the day with 1 more black flag, this time we were at fault, downshifting on turn-in isn’t a great idea. 

We lost our starter midway through the day but could push-start it without issue.  We’ve spent a lot of time working on our pit stop strategy.   With only 3 drivers, we wear lots of hats, but were able to crush a 2:45 pit stop with 18 gallons of fuel.  We were pretty pumped and our quick stops made a big difference for us. 

Sunday came around and it seems like most drivers shaped up.  Lots of tight racing and we had a lot of fun out there.   We made people earn their passes, but tried to be respectful of those significantly faster than us.  Our long wheelbase gives some advantages in the high speed turns.  Nothing like hanging it wide open through the esses with a miata on your hip! Shoutout to the number 15 who was hidden in our blind spot in the carousel mid-day Sunday.  We never saw them and cut down on them.  8’ aluminum panels make excellent blind spots.

We did have a couple of moments on Sunday.  The first with an RX-7 who lost it in the bus stop and tagged our rear end shredding the wooden fender and tacoing the wheel.  We were able to continue on without changing the wheel, but it’s a damn miracle the bead held.  Our driver forgot to relay the message about the wheel.  Combine that taco’d wheel with our strong rear brake bias and we were wheel hopping the big braking zones.  Trying to make a pass on the pink bug in 11 the rear jumped badly and we spun, thanks to the pink bug for giving lots of room.  A tire pressure adjustment helped a lot and we finished out the day cleanly.  Coming from 8th in C-Class to finish 2nd on the weekend.  Our third 2nd place in a row and second consecutive loss to the Junk Runners.  We even finished with the same alternator we started with.

Another weekend of great fun, minimal frustration, and new friends.  See some of you at Thunderhill where we will again chase that coveted C-Class win.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

So no contact and they kicked the driver out of the car?

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:

So no contact and they kicked the driver out of the car?

Yep-
https://youtu.be/zkCGqzoctw4?t=3560

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

a) Saturday morning was pure chaos. seemed like FCY every couple of green laps for multiple multiple car incidents at a time.

2. I just got home, and you already have the wrap up written?!

That guy

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Bricoop wrote:
hkerekes wrote:

So no contact and they kicked the driver out of the car?

Yep-
https://youtu.be/zkCGqzoctw4?t=3560


Thats some bullshit.  What was their reasoning?   I wonder if it was the same judge that was at Road Atlanta giving people a hard time.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

At the end of the day it didn’t make a lick of difference to the results. Our driver could have argued it, but chose not to. Judges gave us some breaks later in the race. All in all a good time.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Making a difference in the results is besides the point.   Getting removed when there was no contact and no clear wrong doing is the issue.    The driver cant really argue with a judge, they are pretty clear about that.    Getting some breaks later is also bullshit.   It should not happen in the first place.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Seems like there is a bigger picture being missed here.  From what I'm hearing this race started out with a lot of bad driving.  At some point the race org has to do something to stop the madness and if that involves swapping out every driver that makes a mistake, then so be it.  Contact/no contact is besides the point.  The driver spun all by himself in a particularly fast part of the track to do that.  This wasn't about what this one driver did, it was about the collective group screwing up.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

I didn't get the impression that they removed the driver from the race, but just wanted him to do a driver change to cool off? If they removed him from the race I think that's overly harsh, but watching the video it looks like the driver was a bit frantic getting back on track and starting driving the track backwards for a bit which safety workers get REALLY angry about (not saying I've never done it, speaking from experience haha). From the judges perspective, I wouldn't send someone back out after they drove backwards on track, even if it's for a few feet.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

cheseroo wrote:

Seems like there is a bigger picture being missed here.  From what I'm hearing this race started out with a lot of bad driving.  At some point the race org has to do something to stop the madness and if that involves swapping out every driver that makes a mistake, then so be it.  Contact/no contact is besides the point.  The driver spun all by himself in a particularly fast part of the track to do that.  This wasn't about what this one driver did, it was about the collective group screwing up.

Agreed.... This is about the bigger picture.I was out in that clusterfuck for the first two hours,and I saw WAY more carnage than usual
Track management told Jay he had to do something,and swapping drivers is a good (and relatively painless) way of making changes happen.If it had been me,I would not have had a problem with it....

40+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:
Bricoop wrote:
hkerekes wrote:

So no contact and they kicked the driver out of the car?

Yep-
https://youtu.be/zkCGqzoctw4?t=3560


Thats some bullshit.  What was their reasoning?   I wonder if it was the same judge that was at Road Atlanta giving people a hard time.

Take it easy there buddy.  Saturday was a level of asshattedness and general stupidity I have not seen for a long time.  Asking the driver to change was reasonable, especially since the driver volunteered that he ran out of talent.  The judge has probably raced more races, started more first time drivers, and built more cars than anyone else on this thread.  If he wanted to give the Cyberfukd team a hard time, he would have made them do something silly for an hour.

My driver did the exact same thing at the bus stop Sunday afternoon, it was suggested he be pulled as well.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

That 600 point turn gave me anxiety

Takata R&D :: 1993 Accord - team captain - rear drum brakes lol
GoPro 360 Heros :: BMW E28  - co-captain

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Yes, clearly not the driver's best move getting it turned around.  Once we saw what was happening we told him to just back it into the wall on the radio.   If the driver pressed the issue I'm pretty sure he could have stayed in the car.  As you can hear from the video, we were just doing as told. He didn't object AT ALL.  Judges take enough shit and we always err on the side of being courteous. 

Getting pulled had nothing to do with how he chose to get turned around on the track.  It was the general race behavior of other competitors leading up to that.  (As an FYI The driver in question went 6 races before ever getting a black flag).

For those that weren't there, about 90 minutes into the race there was a warning over the loud speaker that they would red flag the race if the quality of driving didn't improve.  I've never avoided so many wrecks as I did Saturday morning.  The afternoon seemed better.  We weren't upset at the decision, the driver got the rest of his laps later that afternoon, and it didn't change the standings.

I'd like to see the Friday Night Rookie Meeting brought back.  Some cars seemed to lack a general awareness and etiquette; which to me seemed like novice racer moves. 

Nobody needs to get worked up over what is the equivalent of beer league racing.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Bricoop wrote:

Yes, clearly not the driver's best move getting it turned around.  Once we saw what was happening we told him to just back it into the wall on the radio.   If the driver pressed the issue I'm pretty sure he could have stayed in the car.  As you can hear from the video, we were just doing as told. He didn't object AT ALL.  Judges take enough shit and we always err on the side of being courteous. 

Getting pulled had nothing to do with how he chose to get turned around on the track.  It was the general race behavior of other competitors leading up to that.  (As an FYI The driver in question went 6 races before ever getting a black flag).

For those that weren't there, about 90 minutes into the race there was a warning over the loud speaker that they would red flag the race if the quality of driving didn't improve.  I've never avoided so many wrecks as I did Saturday morning.  The afternoon seemed better.  We weren't upset at the decision, the driver got the rest of his laps later that afternoon, and it didn't change the standings.

I'd like to see the Friday Night Rookie Meeting brought back.  Some cars seemed to lack a general awareness and etiquette; which to me seemed like novice racer moves. 

Nobody needs to get worked up over what is the equivalent of beer league racing.

I certainly did not want to imply that your driver(s) were asshats.  We swapped some positions back and forth on one of my stints and it was fun.  Your rear tire on Sunday was interesting to watch, did you lose any fillings from the vibration?

I did get the red mist Sunday afternoon and made an uncharacteristic dick move pass at the bus stop and got a black flag for 2 off (no contact).  I went to the penalty box and professed my shame.  It was probably my first black flag in a couple of years.

Good racing with you and I love the theme.

-whatever_racecar - blue Volvo wagon

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

15 (edited by Bricoop 2022-03-15 02:38 PM)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

rb92673 wrote:
Bricoop wrote:

Yes, clearly not the driver's best move getting it turned around.  Once we saw what was happening we told him to just back it into the wall on the radio.   If the driver pressed the issue I'm pretty sure he could have stayed in the car.  As you can hear from the video, we were just doing as told. He didn't object AT ALL.  Judges take enough shit and we always err on the side of being courteous. 

Getting pulled had nothing to do with how he chose to get turned around on the track.  It was the general race behavior of other competitors leading up to that.  (As an FYI The driver in question went 6 races before ever getting a black flag).

For those that weren't there, about 90 minutes into the race there was a warning over the loud speaker that they would red flag the race if the quality of driving didn't improve.  I've never avoided so many wrecks as I did Saturday morning.  The afternoon seemed better.  We weren't upset at the decision, the driver got the rest of his laps later that afternoon, and it didn't change the standings.

I'd like to see the Friday Night Rookie Meeting brought back.  Some cars seemed to lack a general awareness and etiquette; which to me seemed like novice racer moves. 

Nobody needs to get worked up over what is the equivalent of beer league racing.

I certainly did not want to imply that your driver(s) were asshats.  We swapped some positions back and forth on one of my stints and it was fun.  Your rear tire on Sunday was interesting to watch, did you lose any fillings from the vibration?

I did get the red mist Sunday afternoon and made an uncharacteristic dick move pass at the bus stop and got a black flag for 2 off (no contact).  I went to the penalty box and professed my shame.  It was probably my first black flag in a couple of years.

Good racing with you and I love the theme.

-whatever_racecar - blue Volvo wagon

None taken.  We understand the limits of the truck better than we used to.  We have to run a lot of curb to get the truck to rotate and it scares a lot of people, but we always try and give a cars width when someone is on our hip. 

I was the one who spun in turn 11.  It would have been nice to know that the wheel was no longer round.  I don't have any idea how the bead held.  Check out the second photo here:  https://www.instagram.com/p/CbEUpPeLr7_/

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

duthehustle93 wrote:

I didn't get the impression that they removed the driver from the race, but just wanted him to do a driver change to cool off? If they removed him from the race I think that's overly harsh, but watching the video it looks like the driver was a bit frantic getting back on track and starting driving the track backwards for a bit which safety workers get REALLY angry about (not saying I've never done it, speaking from experience haha). From the judges perspective, I wouldn't send someone back out after they drove backwards on track, even if it's for a few feet.

There are A LOT of judgments made when someone comes into Penalty. As a judge, you're not just assessing the infraction, you're figuring out where this driver's mistake(s) fall within the context of:

(A) The entire race: Is it getting too chippy? How's the weather?
(2) The Car and Team: Are they Penalty Box recividists? What is their general attitude?
(Next) The driver themself: Are their belts still tight? Can they actually find or reach the ignition or kill switch? Are they red in the face, blank-eyed, completely sweated through their driver suit, or have hands that are shaking uncontrollably? (IOW: "Should this person in their current condition even be in the car?")
(Lastly), the infraction itself: Do they understand that they did it, how they got there, and what they could have done differently?

It's not an exact science and we can make it as codified as we'd like, but there's always some subjectivity to it. The beauty of it is that even when you have a 30,000-word rulebook, there's still a human deciding and that's no less subjective. [Shit, maybe we should hire Michael Masi.] Lemons just puts out front that humans are fickle and if people ask me about a bad call or something being "unfair" in Lemons, I ask them how many two-offs and bumps they've gotten away with in Lemons without flags. Some people get that, some people don't. As it turns out, "fair" in motorsports (and all sports) almost categorically means "I would like this situation to work to my advantage at all times."

Anyway, I haven't gotten a debrief from the weekend, so I don't know the ins and outs. But if (A)or (2) is going badly, then the judges absolutely can shortcut the rest of it and just start slinging penalties. There's an ebb and flow to the races that you might get as a participant, but the 10,000-foot view from running an event requires both circuit-board-detail soldering and the occasional implentation of a 10-pound hammer.

This is a learning hospital and some lessons need to be harder than others.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Eh, this hkerekes guy looks like he might be happier in one of those other racing organizations...
Saturday morning did bring some unpleasant flashbacks to Road Atlanta back in December but I'm glad the overlords got it sorted before we all had to do the Driver's Meeting Of Shame on a hot track. Turned out ok.

-Anton

Volvo PV544 - now with Chevy 3.9 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 122 races and counting
5/31/22

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Bricoop wrote:

I'd like to see the Friday Night Rookie Meeting brought back.  Some cars seemed to lack a general awareness and etiquette; which to me seemed like novice racer moves.

Funny that you mentioned this. I said it to at least 5 people this weekend. I am a STRONG believer that rookies don't cause the most of the problems in Lemons on most weekends. The really egregious stuff is usually people that have done just enough of this to be over-confident without the talent to back it up. BUT, I have been seeing more and more things that look like rookies doing things because they don't know any better. Leaving the rookie orientation to a video they may or may not watch, IF they even saw the info that they are supposed to watch it, is a huge leap of faith in my eyes. I felt like the meeting I had to go to in my first race got me some basic knowledge to work with. I never saw any of the rookie meetings that Steve McD lead, but I am guessing finer points got through.

I will use one example I saw a lot of this weekend. What to do on a white flag. People were just blowing up the brakes when a white flag was shown. And there were thousands of them. There would be one guy afraid to pass the safety vehicle and 25 guys afraid to pass each other or the guy that won't pass the safety vehicle and that caused some hairball moments when you would run up on an almost stopped pack without a yellow showing to give you some sort of warning. That seems like something a driver would do that doesn't know any better. That is just one example.

I'd love to see required Friday night rookie meetings again. I think it would make the on track experience better and safer for the rookies and the experienced drivers..

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

X-args wrote:

Eh, this hkerekes guy looks like he might be happier in one of those other racing organizations...
Saturday morning did bring some unpleasant flashbacks to Road Atlanta back in December but I'm glad the overlords got it sorted before we all had to do the Driver's Meeting Of Shame on a hot track. Turned out ok.

-Anton


Eh we race clean and did not participate in the RA bullshit.    Do you think its ok to ok to yank a driver because you feel like it?    No contact was made and nothing was hurt.   Bring the driver in, explain why he did xyz wrong and then send him back out.   They penalized the entire team because of someones feelings.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:

....They penalized the entire team because of someones feelings.

Yup, and I'm happy they did.  Nothing against the cybertruck people at all.  They weren't the only ones this happened to.  If a race starts out going south with the very first 40 minutes under yellow with constant driver fuckups, I wholeheartedly agree with HQ pulling drivers until it stops.  What about the other 100+ teams that can't race because people can't stop spinning?  The many are getting penalized because of the few.  Lastly, we won class in this very race last year after having a driver pulled early on so it's not a death sentance.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

With my lack of skill, I am amazed anybody will even let me near a racetrack. I should be pulled before the green drops.

I guess bribes really do work.

Cordoba

22 (edited by Bricoop 2022-03-16 08:56 AM)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Wendell34 wrote:
Bricoop wrote:

I'd like to see the Friday Night Rookie Meeting brought back.  Some cars seemed to lack a general awareness and etiquette; which to me seemed like novice racer moves.

Funny that you mentioned this. I said it to at least 5 people this weekend. I am a STRONG believer that rookies don't cause the most of the problems in Lemons on most weekends. The really egregious stuff is usually people that have done just enough of this to be over-confident without the talent to back it up. BUT, I have been seeing more and more things that look like rookies doing things because they don't know any better. Leaving the rookie orientation to a video they may or may not watch, IF they even saw the info that they are supposed to watch it, is a huge leap of faith in my eyes. I felt like the meeting I had to go to in my first race got me some basic knowledge to work with. I never saw any of the rookie meetings that Steve McD lead, but I am guessing finer points got through.

I will use one example I saw a lot of this weekend. What to do on a white flag. People were just blowing up the brakes when a white flag was shown. And there were thousands of them. There would be one guy afraid to pass the safety vehicle and 25 guys afraid to pass each other or the guy that won't pass the safety vehicle and that caused some hairball moments when you would run up on an almost stopped pack without a yellow showing to give you some sort of warning. That seems like something a driver would do that doesn't know any better. That is just one example.

I'd love to see required Friday night rookie meetings again. I think it would make the on track experience better and safer for the rookies and the experienced drivers..

I agree with you.  Both for white and yellow flags.  No need to slam on the brakes, coasting is just fine while you assess the situation as you may have big heavy truck with a run looking to make a pass. 

More than anything, put 140+ cars on a 2.5 mile track with amateur drivers and blind turns and things are going to happen.    When we have these giant fields at tracks with many high-speed blind areas marshalls need to be on their game about long backups as the backups can grow mighty quickly. Overall I thought the marshalls did a better job than in prior years. We sent out a spotter to help identify those traps for our drivers.

As for new races vs over confident veterans, I think it's a mix.  Newer drivers may cause an unneccessary backup and have no idea someone's day is now ruined because they didn't know they can pass the wrecker.  On the other hand, lots of guys trying to win their race on Saturday usually just spoils it for themselves and/or others. 

Eric-Your points are well taken and that very well may have been the reason he got pulled.  Trying to be humble and saying "I ran out of talent" may have been misinterpreted as not understanding what happened.  This racer starts out every race for us because he is generally our cleanest driver.  Again, we respect the judges and their judgements. 

This may read like a bitching session, but really its just postulation.  We always have a fantastic time and want everyone to have a safe race with a car they can drive onto the trailer at the end of the weekend.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Bricoop wrote:

Eric-Your points are well taken and that very well may have been the reason he got pulled.  Trying to be humble and saying "I ran out of talent" may have been misinterpreted as not understanding what happened.  This racer starts out every race for us because he is generally our cleanest driver.  Again, we respect the judges and their judgements. 

This may read like a bitching session, but really its just postulation.  We always have a fantastic time and want everyone to have a safe race with a car they can drive onto the trailer at the end of the weekend.

Just a suggestion, if a driver gets a black flag have them radio the captain and have the captain meet the car/driver at the penalty box.  In my experience, starting the conversation with a mea culpa helps the judge know you are reasonable, but having the captain there is an opportunity to plead your case for sending the driver back out.  It is also an opportunity for the captain to pull a driver that may need a break.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

rb92673 wrote:
Bricoop wrote:

Eric-Your points are well taken and that very well may have been the reason he got pulled.  Trying to be humble and saying "I ran out of talent" may have been misinterpreted as not understanding what happened.  This racer starts out every race for us because he is generally our cleanest driver.  Again, we respect the judges and their judgements. 

This may read like a bitching session, but really its just postulation.  We always have a fantastic time and want everyone to have a safe race with a car they can drive onto the trailer at the end of the weekend.

Just a suggestion, if a driver gets a black flag have them radio the captain and have the captain meet the car/driver at the penalty box.  In my experience, starting the conversation with a mea culpa helps the judge know you are reasonable, but having the captain there is an opportunity to plead your case for sending the driver back out.  It is also an opportunity for the captain to pull a driver that may need a break.

Not taking it like a bitching session, just trying generally to express that the process can seem a little unclear because there are always a lot of factors to consider. And yes, the more of your team that shows up in Penalty, the more we understand your grasp of the concept of endurance racing as a team sport.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

We ended up meeting drivers later in the penalty box, but that was mostly to ask if we could leave it idling because we were tired of push starting the bitch.

All in all a great weekend.