Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

therood wrote:

Not taking it like a bitching session, just trying generally to express that the process can seem a little unclear because there are always a lot of factors to consider. And yes, the more of your team that shows up in Penalty, the more we understand your grasp of the concept of endurance racing as a team sport.

This and common sense is why Bad Decisions has always had a policy of trying to being in the penalty box enmass when a driver comes in.  The two car owners (so normally me) decide if they get out of the car or go back out.  When you cycle newbies through this is especially important as they really have no frame of reference for how rattled they are.  Their answers to the judges' leading questions often release me from the need to ask seemingly simple, open-ended questions to decide if they are fit to continue.

I have no problem with judge telling us to change drivers.  If the guy made a mistake and it was not egregious...he will get his time back.  The black flag from a spin likely takes anyone out of contention anyway and new driver is fresh and suited up to boot.

Minor annoyance for us in the Midwest that used to be able to paddock fuel...new driver is likely getting screwed on a fuel stop with hot pit fueling.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

cheseroo wrote:
hkerekes wrote:

....They penalized the entire team because of someones feelings.

Yup, and I'm happy they did.  Nothing against the cybertruck people at all.  They weren't the only ones this happened to.  If a race starts out going south with the very first 40 minutes under yellow with constant driver fuckups, I wholeheartedly agree with HQ pulling drivers until it stops.  What about the other 100+ teams that can't race because people can't stop spinning?  The many are getting penalized because of the few.  Lastly, we won class in this very race last year after having a driver pulled early on so it's not a death sentance.


Then black flag everyone like they did in Road Atlanta.  Dont start picking on whoever happens to make a mistake at that very moment after 15 other cars fucked around and got away with it.   Removing drivers without clear rules doesnt solve anything, it just creates problems.   Its a knee jerk reaction that doesnt solve the issue as to why its happening in the first place. 

When you have two races in 4 months where there is too much bullshit going on then procedures need to change so it doesnt happen again.   Clean racing is better for everyone.

28 (edited by DirtyDuc 2022-03-16 10:37 PM)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Look, I had a rookie out there and she only got in a little trouble during the crazy hours but had no contact. It wasn't even a penalty offense, but I made her go see the judges anyway so she would develop good self-reporting habits. Same with my other rookie. Our garage was on the way to the penalty box, so they stopped and I hopped in. Mostly to figure out if I was making a good decision sending them back out or not. Can they answer the judges' questions coherently? Do they seem overwhelmed by the experience? Is something strange happening?

We self-reported before the flag for almost all offenses (one was one of the rookies racing too close to a safety truck, he was confused as to why he got flagged. This is my fault as captain. I should have reinforced the virtual rookie meeting again at the track.). As a team (and in this case a family) we take our lumps and move on. No way were we going to be competitive from the get-go.

The procedures were fine and fair enough. Far fairer at a Lemons race than most anywhere else I've been (and that includes a lot of life... not just racing). An early driver change early in the race is pretty low risk for everyone involved. No need to get spun up about it.

That guy

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Something to keep in mind is, AFAIK, Lemons doesn't employ the flaggers. The judges only know what the flaggers report to them.  Do the flaggers make mistakes?  Or course, but with that many cars, how can they not?  If you spin, you can't assume the flagger knew why you spun.  All he/she knows is your car is pointed in the wrong direction, not the fact that you spun to avoid an accident, or maybe because you just ran out of talent.  I've BTDT on both sides of the coin.  Sometimes we "got away with one", other times we got called in for it.  It's pretty much a wash in the end.

This our 14th year in Lemons.  We've had our issues with a few of the calls over the years, but overall. I think Lemons does a damn fine job of keeping us fools in line.  If they didn't, it would turn out like that other "more serious" series that my car will never see because I like my fenders kept straight.  IIRC, we've only had 5 incidents of contact in 14 years, not any that were serious, and IMO that speaks volumes about the Lemons series overall.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

How about tracking black flags by driver, and if they go the weekend without one they get a “I wasn’t a jackwagon at ____ racetrack 2022” sticker to put on their helmet.  Personally, I if I’m  getting in for my last stint and have no flags so far, I’m gonna be trying to get that 5 cent sticker. 

FWIW I guess everyone pays their fee and approaches it how they choose.  Personally I’ve played competitive sports and taken it ultra-serious, and I’ve done Lemons and treated it lightheartedly, I drive home from Lemons races much happier.

I like the way these Cybertruck folks think, they’re trying to be faster and win their class, but at the same time not treating it like Drive to Survive….so it is possible to strike a balance. 

Our first race was last summer, and I do have to say regarding the meeting I think that wouldn’t be a bad idea. We watched the video, but really it was meeting bad decisions and burnt/brown rubber soul at the track on Thursday night that helped us a bunch, we were able to pepper them with questions about how to “do Lemons” which was really helpful.  We didn’t punch anyone, catch on fire, or get kicked out, so…great success.

2021 Gingerman-I:  IOE (Strickland Propane)
2021 Gingerman-II:  20 seconds of footage on the wrap-up!
95 Chevy S-10

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:
cheseroo wrote:
hkerekes wrote:

....They penalized the entire team because of someones feelings.

Yup, and I'm happy they did.  Nothing against the cybertruck people at all.  They weren't the only ones this happened to.  If a race starts out going south with the very first 40 minutes under yellow with constant driver fuckups, I wholeheartedly agree with HQ pulling drivers until it stops.  What about the other 100+ teams that can't race because people can't stop spinning?  The many are getting penalized because of the few.  Lastly, we won class in this very race last year after having a driver pulled early on so it's not a death sentance.


Then black flag everyone like they did in Road Atlanta.  Dont start picking on whoever happens to make a mistake at that very moment after 15 other cars fucked around and got away with it.   Removing drivers without clear rules doesnt solve anything, it just creates problems.   Its a knee jerk reaction that doesnt solve the issue as to why its happening in the first place. 

When you have two races in 4 months where there is too much bullshit going on then procedures need to change so it doesnt happen again.   Clean racing is better for everyone.

https://i.gifer.com/IuP.gif

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

32 (edited by duthehustle93 2022-03-17 11:51 AM)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

VKZ24 wrote:

Something to keep in mind is, AFAIK, Lemons doesn't employ the flaggers. The judges only know what the flaggers report to them.  Do the flaggers make mistakes?  Or course, but with that many cars, how can they not?  If you spin, you can't assume the flagger knew why you spun.  All he/she knows is your car is pointed in the wrong direction, not the fact that you spun to avoid an accident, or maybe because you just ran out of talent.  I've BTDT on both sides of the coin.  Sometimes we "got away with one", other times we got called in for it.  It's pretty much a wash in the end.

This our 14th year in Lemons.  We've had our issues with a few of the calls over the years, but overall. I think Lemons does a damn fine job of keeping us fools in line.  If they didn't, it would turn out like that other "more serious" series that my car will never see because I like my fenders kept straight.  IIRC, we've only had 5 incidents of contact in 14 years, not any that were serious, and IMO that speaks volumes about the Lemons series overall.

Yeah they don't employ the flaggers and need to abide by the track to keep them happy. At the 24hr high plains last year everyone was getting some absurd black flags; I got called in 3 times and drove clean the whole race (0 offs/contact), 2 out of 3 times even the penalty box didn't know why I was there. The third time the flagger black flagged about 10 cars that were 2 wide for "passing under yellow" when we actually just were stacking into single line formation. Most of us were clean drivers and the penalty box reluctantly gave us all blacks. I talked to them after and they said the track was getting annoyed and they had to give us penalties to keep the track happy. I see the judges as mediators and let them do what they've gotta do. It's cool that some of these premium tracks let our garbage cans on wheels drive on their tarmac and I'll take as much heat as needed if it means keeping relations good.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

They pay absurd amounts of money to rent the track, dont think for a minute that the track cares about anything other than money.   They will let whoever wants to pay in as long as the schedule has a spot open.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

aventari wrote:

That 600 point turn gave me anxiety

Poorly executed 24-point turn was the reason you got yanked out of the car...

35 (edited by Bricoop 2022-03-18 09:27 AM)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

billy bee wrote:
aventari wrote:

That 600 point turn gave me anxiety

Poorly executed 24-point turn was the reason you got yanked out of the car...

Bill-Do you know this for a fact?  Judge Chris didn't bring up his turn around. 

We were standing there and heard nothing of the sort nor was such communicated to our driver.  We went back to the onboard and didn't hear any criticism of on track behavior.  If that was the actual reason, we would have expected this to be communicated to the driver as a learning opportunity.

I've spoken to our driver about the turn around.  In hindsight it would have been much easier to turn right or back it onto the grass after he turned the wrong way.  In his defense he always left a car widths on the track for other drivers during his multi-multi-point turn.

I believe Rood hit the nail on the the head.  By trying to be humble and saying "I ran out of talent," rather than explaining in detail what happened, he may have seemed like a Lemons rookie.  In reality he's raced 10 events and had 4 black flags total.

36 (edited by hkerekes 2022-03-18 09:25 AM)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

If you want to start yanking drivers then the car who causes the incident should also be yanked.  Lemons likes to glorify stupidity then gets surprised when people do stupid shit.   Now someone does something slightly stupid and they get pulled out of the car.   

There was no contact and it was done under a yellow flag.........

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:

They pay absurd amounts of money to rent the track, dont think for a minute that the track cares about anything other than money.   They will let whoever wants to pay in as long as the schedule has a spot open.

Plenty of organizers and coordinators are banned from certain tracks. A TA series I compete in umbrellas under an organizer that had an issue with a couple local tracks, and now we no longer get to compete at these tracks. The series is now dying because everyone is tired of running the same 1-2 tracks for an entire season. To not slander names I'm not going into details, but it absolutely can happen.

If you are taking racing seriously enough to let an unfair black flag or penalty ruin your weekend, there are lots of other series out there with like-minded individuals ... but Lemons isn't one of them since we're all too busy having fun.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

duthehustle93 wrote:

If you are taking racing seriously enough to let an unfair black flag or penalty ruin your weekend, there are lots of other series out there with like-minded individuals ... but Lemons isn't one of them since we're all too busy having fun.

Well said.

I had a friend who ran with my team a few races after he stopped fielding his own car because he said things like B.S. Judging and penalties were not "fair" in Lemons.  When I finally got the point across that it's not supposed to be fair, it's supposed to be fun, he had a better time.

For anyone who wants to take Lemons too serious, think about this.  The entry fee is higher than the top prize.  You are behind the 8-ball before you ever turn a lap.  It's a hobby.  It's supposed to be fun.  Also....do yourself a favor and never add it up!

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

duthehustle93 wrote:
hkerekes wrote:

They pay absurd amounts of money to rent the track, dont think for a minute that the track cares about anything other than money.   They will let whoever wants to pay in as long as the schedule has a spot open.

Plenty of organizers and coordinators are banned from certain tracks. A TA series I compete in umbrellas under an organizer that had an issue with a couple local tracks, and now we no longer get to compete at these tracks. The series is now dying because everyone is tired of running the same 1-2 tracks for an entire season. To not slander names I'm not going into details, but it absolutely can happen.

If you are taking racing seriously enough to let an unfair black flag or penalty ruin your weekend, there are lots of other series out there with like-minded individuals ... but Lemons isn't one of them since we're all too busy having fun.


There are teams in Lemons that are there to win and there are teams there for fun.  Just because you may not be capable of winning then dont ruin the rest of the race for the teams who intend on winning.       Both can exist at the same race.    Maybe its the teams who are there for fun and dont care about penalties who ruin it for everyone else.    Also if they award the winners then how can it only be for fun.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:

[snip]

There are teams in Lemons that are there to win and there are teams there for fun.  Just because you may not be capable of winning then dont ruin the rest of the race for the teams who intend on winning.       Both can exist at the same race.    Maybe its the teams who are there for fun and dont care about penalties who ruin it for everyone else.    Also if they award the winners then how can it only be for fun.

  I agree, though really in a much broader sense that:
not only both can exist at the same race, but that all can.

  But I leave the definition of "winning" to others, for others; specifically: the series organizers, and, each of the participants individually (Charlie Sheen would only get a vote here if he was actually a participant; yet, I digress...).

  It seems to me that you define "winning" as 'placing first in class', or, 'first overall'; and I agree that it is your right to do so - for yourself.

  My definition of "winning" for me at my first (and so far, only) race was:

1. Don't hit anything,
2. Don't lose control of the car,
3. Don't go off track,
4. Cooperate with the other drivers,
5. Point the faster cars by, and
6. Bring back the car so that someone else can drive it, preferably in exactly the same shape it was handed to me (discounting consumables).

  I was only partly successful. I had a slight 'interaction' with someone who decided (in retrospect, after reviewing his video) that he was a bit too aggressive, and he sought me out and apologized (I thought I lost control by running up onto the curbing - like 3" - I didn't even realize there was contact, until someone pointed out the extra paint on the rr fender).

  Based on our conversation afterward, I believe that driver was more focused on placement than avoiding contact.

  But, y'know: no worries. Both vehicles were back on track in short order, and there was good conversation and beverages in the evening - it's all good, and that's racing, and I learned a lot - from him.

  My definition of "winning" for my next race (unless I get a seat somewhere in the mean time) is:

1. Build a car that passes tech.

  That's it.

  So there's all kinds of definitions of "winning", and "fun", but we each get to define those concepts for ourselves.

  But I'll point out yet again - the organizers have specified a Lemons "grand prize" as follows (copied from my earlier post) :

"////
From the FAQ:
"The I.O.E. (Index of Effluency) is the grand prize awarded at each 24 Hours of Lemons race. Using a proprietary calculation of how bad a Lemons entry is versus how high it finished, race organizers bestow the award on only the most worthy teams. Winners of the I.O.E. enjoy the highest honors (a low bar, we know) of any Lemons trophy."

And, specified in rule 1.5, the largest money haul with a trophy comes with the I.O.E., not winning overall on laps:
$601 + $1430 [free entry value] = $2031

I think pursuing the I.O.E. is "the spirit of Lemons". I'm not convinced raw speed is primary to winning the grand prize.
////"

  I wish you the best in your pursuit of a win - however you define it.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

I should have been more general in what winning meant but yes there are many ways to "win".     In any case there should not be any unfair penalties in the first place.    Everyone pays money to enter and also has significant money invested in the cars.    There are safety rules to eliminate any doubt and unfair advantages.    They are blanket rules that apply to everyone.    If you want to take drivers out of the cars then make rules around that penalty.    I have no issue with any of that.  The issue arises when its done based on whatever the judge is feeling at the time.   That is complete bullshit.   Black flags are already a way to penalize drivers and is explained very clearly, pulling drivers is not explained at all.  Drivers were threatened to be pulled from the car at Road Atlanta.   Sonoma was not an isolated incident....

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:

I should have been more general in what winning meant but yes there are many ways to "win".     In any case there should not be any unfair penalties in the first place.    Everyone pays money to enter and also has significant money invested in the cars.    There are safety rules to eliminate any doubt and unfair advantages.    They are blanket rules that apply to everyone.    If you want to take drivers out of the cars then make rules around that penalty.    I have no issue with any of that.  The issue arises when its done based on whatever the judge is feeling at the time.   That is complete bullshit.   Black flags are already a way to penalize drivers and is explained very clearly, pulling drivers is not explained at all.  Drivers were threatened to be pulled from the car at Road Atlanta.   Sonoma was not an isolated incident....

You're certainly entitled to an opinion, but the rules are as clear-cut as they need to be. Penalties aren't determined by officials, referees, or race stewards. They're determined by judges, people who are making judgments. "Pulling drivers" is a subjective calculus and the explanation is in the rules as much as it needs to be.

DEM RULES wrote:

6.0.1     Progression of Penalties: Black-flag penalties are always at the discretion of the race judges and get increasingly harsh as the number/severity increases.

1st black flag of day—usually, just a stern chat.

2nd black flag of day—embarrassing, time-consuming penalty at judges’ discretion.

3rd black flag of day—same as above, plus a mandatory 1-hour penalty.

4th black flag of day—same as above, plus a mandatory 3-hour penalty.

5th black flag of day—whole team ejected for rest of the race.

This part of the rulebook is almost certainly never going to be expanded because the second you start codifying those things is the second that the bulk of everyone shouts about rules being "unfair." Racing is unfair. All of it. In every series. Bar none. Anyone who sells you an "objective" rulebook is lying to you; at the end of the day, a human being is making all officiating decisions. Lemons puts that subjectivity out front and I don't think anyone who's raced across many series is going to say the outcome is any more unfair than anywhere else.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

therood wrote:
hkerekes wrote:

I should have been more general in what winning meant but yes there are many ways to "win".     In any case there should not be any unfair penalties in the first place.    Everyone pays money to enter and also has significant money invested in the cars.    There are safety rules to eliminate any doubt and unfair advantages.    They are blanket rules that apply to everyone.    If you want to take drivers out of the cars then make rules around that penalty.    I have no issue with any of that.  The issue arises when its done based on whatever the judge is feeling at the time.   That is complete bullshit.   Black flags are already a way to penalize drivers and is explained very clearly, pulling drivers is not explained at all.  Drivers were threatened to be pulled from the car at Road Atlanta.   Sonoma was not an isolated incident....

You're certainly entitled to an opinion, but the rules are as clear-cut as they need to be. Penalties aren't determined by officials, referees, or race stewards. They're determined by judges, people who are making judgments. "Pulling drivers" is a subjective calculus and the explanation is in the rules as much as it needs to be.

DEM RULES wrote:

6.0.1     Progression of Penalties: Black-flag penalties are always at the discretion of the race judges and get increasingly harsh as the number/severity increases.

1st black flag of day—usually, just a stern chat.

2nd black flag of day—embarrassing, time-consuming penalty at judges’ discretion.

3rd black flag of day—same as above, plus a mandatory 1-hour penalty.

4th black flag of day—same as above, plus a mandatory 3-hour penalty.

5th black flag of day—whole team ejected for rest of the race.

This part of the rulebook is almost certainly never going to be expanded because the second you start codifying those things is the second that the bulk of everyone shouts about rules being "unfair." Racing is unfair. All of it. In every series. Bar none. Anyone who sells you an "objective" rulebook is lying to you; at the end of the day, a human being is making all officiating decisions. Lemons puts that subjectivity out front and I don't think anyone who's raced across many series is going to say the outcome is any more unfair than anywhere else.

I've found being considerate of judges, accepting their decisions, and generally not taking things too seriously has always played out better for us in the long run.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

hkerekes wrote:

Lemons likes to glorify stupidity then gets surprised when people do stupid shit.

Well, no. Lemons likes to glorify absurdity. Actual stupidity, on the other hand, is not so much surprising as it is annoying and potentially dangerous.

hkerekes wrote:

Maybe its the teams who are there for fun and dont care about penalties who ruin it for everyone else.

The whole point of Lemons is to have fun without getting hung up on things like whether a penalty will affect a team's standing, therefore no, by definition the teams who think that way can't ruin Lemons. Perhaps you're thinking of some other series? This isn't that series.

hkerekes wrote:

Do you think its ok to ok to yank a driver because you feel like it?

Yes. I think it is ok that this is entirely at the discretion of the judges and I would not want to change this. I agreed to that rule along with all of the other rules before handing over my money. If I change my mind then I will stop handing over my money.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

That_Noise_Is_Normal wrote:

How about tracking black flags by driver, and if they go the weekend without one they get a “I wasn’t a jackwagon at ____ racetrack 2022” sticker to put on their helmet.  Personally, I if I’m  getting in for my last stint and have no flags so far, I’m gonna be trying to get that 5 cent sticker.

Thus begins the Great Helmet Swapping Scandal of the 2023 Season...

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

46 (edited by hkerekes 2022-03-22 05:51 AM)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Eric, there has been threats from the judges to get yanked at the first black flag.    I agree with what you are saying, im trying to point out the inconsistency of the rules in general.   

IMO the general asshattery of Lemons races is getting worse.    Road Atlanta and Sonoma are perfect examples of this.   And yes Lemons always showcases the stupidity of drivers.  Every race recap shows the offs, the broken cars from accidents, the failures of the races in general.  You can be more consistent in rules as you should strive to.   Thats what they are there for.

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Dude, let it go.  The horse is tenderized. You're trying to milk the bull.  They've been successful doing it this way for what, 15 years now?  If anything, the punishments have gotten more lenient over the years.  The People's Curse is long dead.  Judge Jonny wouldn't put up with this argument you put forth for 10 seconds before your wristband would be snipped off.   It's not fair to the people that aren't fucking up to circulate around under yellow waiting for others to quit spinning because they ran out of talent or aren't paying attention.  Pulling drivers is much preferable to stopping the whole race for the Come to Jesus talk.  You can argue till you're blue in the face but they ain't changing and the majority agrees with the way they're doing it.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

cheseroo wrote:

Dude, let it go.  The horse is tenderized. You're trying to milk the bull.  They've been successful doing it this way for what, 15 years now?  If anything, the punishments have gotten more lenient over the years.  The People's Curse is long dead.  Judge Jonny wouldn't put up with this argument you put forth for 10 seconds before your wristband would be snipped off.   It's not fair to the people that aren't fucking up to circulate around under yellow waiting for others to quit spinning because they ran out of talent or aren't paying attention.  Pulling drivers is much preferable to stopping the whole race for the Come to Jesus talk.  You can argue till you're blue in the face but they ain't changing and the majority agrees with the way they're doing it.

+1.

As other's have mentioned, nobody is forcing you (hkerekes) to continue spending your money and time with Lemons. If you aren't happy with what they're doing, I think you'll be better heard reaching out to them offline, their contact information is listed on their website. You aren't going to change my sentiment, just as I understand I'm not going to change yours. Based off attendance, following, and permanence of the series, it seems to like they're doing something right. However, I think you'll be better off talking to the people who run it, than trying to change the opinion of some rando's on a forum.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

Part time judge here.
Your best bet when you come in for a flag is drop the attitude and machismo. Just accept your responsibility for the issue and it usually goes faster to getting you back on track. We don't see what you did unless you want to argue about it and then we can sometimes research video or talk to the corner worker or the tower. (Ya see the time problem, right!?) you will sit while we sort it out!
In the event in question, the judge would not have seen the spin. (He only gets a message THAT you spun.)
Your obviously gentile and calm demeanor is why you got yanked!  Seeing that your 67 point turn was like a drunk on New Years, wouldn't have even come into the conversation!
So to paraphrase Cheseroo.....Let it Go!!!!!
Manny

Re: CYBERFUKD Sonoma March 2022 Wrapup

I'm pretty sure he gets it, I think he's just venting. And I think it was only 13 points.

  I think a change to a "black flag could result in: change the driver" protocol to remind drivers "the series sets the rules", and: "this ain't 'SIM' racing, humans are involved, so don't be an asshat, and don't f'n hit things" is a reasonable response to 'generally worse asshattery', until the asshattery subsides.

  I also think an implied "let someone else turn some laps for a while, and you go talk over what just happened with your team's (other) experienced members" is a quite reasonable result for the driver and the team.