• Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Topic: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

My teammates and I are running a 2000 Golf 2.slow at both High Plains events this year (we hope). We did not actively seek out said bucket, it found us. I have searched the forums and it appears as if this platform has its scattered high points, but it also has some rather debilitating issues. The one that concerns me most is the front wheel bearings. I've found numerous mentions of them not lasting very long, even if you replace them each event (which, on a MK4, is a mechanical PITA vs virtually any other FWD car).

Having owned every MK variant from 1 to 7 since I started driving in the 1980's, I can't recall ever having wheel bearing issues short of curb strikes. The size of the bearing is on par with loads of cars that appear to NOT have bearing issues, so what it the root cause here? Are teams not ducting enough air into the wheel spindle, are wheel offsets too high, can cornering loads of this dangerous shit box be that severe?

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • From: Chicago-ish
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 3,495

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

On front-wheel-drive cars, endurance racing kills wheel bearings and half-shafts just because that's what endurance racing does. Lots of heat inside the hub no matter what you do, lots of cornering load changing directions, etc. You can dig into root causes, but a lot of Lemons is reverse-engineering from the symptoms.

Here's what I'd do, if you have time:

(1) Throw a set of fresh, GOOD bearings on it. Don't buy the "Economy" ones off RockAuto.
(2) Go to a junkyard, buy a spare set of hubs, and load those with another set of GOOD bearings.
(3) On the way to the track, stop at a parts store with a liberal return policy for a pair of half-shafts. Keep the receipt and have them on hand, return them if you don't need them. (Or just keep them if you're not a cheapass like me.)
(4) Savor the cruel universe of endurance racing when the thing that fails is the one thing for which you don't have a spare.

Don't skimp on brake pads or brake fluid.

Other than that, don't rev the ABA to the moon and keep an eye on the temp gauge. An ABA-powered Golf finished fourth overall—and just 39 seconds away from SECOND place—and won Class B at NJMP on the "TOTAL HORSEPOWER TRACK" that is Thunderbolt in 2019. They're light and pretty easy on gas/tires/brakes but have some VW quirks. 120ish HP is plenty for a new Lemons team, you'll do fine.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

therood's Website

  • From: Chicago-ish
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 3,495

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

*120, 121...whatever it takes.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

therood's Website

  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 668

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Ducting from the front of the car aimed at the center of the wheel hub can't hurt either.

It's also good to have a spare of everything that's cheap.  Ball joints, tie rod ends, bolts, bushings, etc.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • From: Camarillo, CA
  • Registered: 2021-03-26
  • Posts: 385

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

You can abuse bearings pretty heavily, as long as they are properly lubricated. Good grease, properly packed, will extend the life of them dramatically. A lot of people have had success extending wheel bearing life in the miata community by repacking them (I'm not sure if your wheel bearings are serviceable so just ignore me if they aren't serviceable by mortals) with Amsoil dominator grease or Redline CV-2. I've had mixed results but I think the times that I've had early failure after repacking was due to me contaminating the bearings or over/under packing. I believe for deep groove at our wheel speeds calls for a 30-40% pack, but who can accurately eyeball that amount or confirm that number is even correct is beyond me.

If you aren't comfortable with repacking, as others have mentioned, get a good brand and keep em cool and that'll go a long way. If you can keep them cool enough to where the grease can keep doing it's job you'll be pretty good.

Full Ass Racing
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#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i
  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

therood wrote:

Here's what I'd do, if you have time:

(1) Throw a set of fresh, GOOD bearings on it. Don't buy the "Economy" ones off RockAuto.
(2) Go to a junkyard, buy a spare set of hubs, and load those with another set of GOOD bearings.
(3) On the way to the track, stop at a parts store with a liberal return policy for a pair of half-shafts. Keep the receipt and have them on hand, return them if you don't need them. (Or just keep them if you're not a cheapass like me.)
(4) Savor the cruel universe of endurance racing when the thing that fails is the one thing for which you don't have a spare.

This was our exact strategy for multiple years running the Saturn s-series.  One thing to add...when you buy said axles...actually take them out of the box and look at them.  much like our ongoing issue with mislabelled Ford Explorer rear calipers, EVERY axle in the greater Chicagoland area was passenger axle regardless of how the rebuilder packaged them.  Trust me when I tell you, the Autozone drone at the register is going to put it back on the shelf regardless of if you physically show them what the correct axle looks like.  This was the only time Eric's strategy did not work flawlessly for us.

  • Registered: 2017-08-31
  • Posts: 6

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

I have a few years experience with the mk4 platform so ask away if you need anything more specific. The front bearings were the bane of my existence. I had exactly what Eric recommended. Spare set of knuckles loaded ready to slap on Saturday night is 100% necessary. If your speed increases you will eat bearings faster. Stick with FAG brand from FCPeuro that come with the lifetime warranty (see link below) One of the main problems we found was the stub axle nut would overheat and the nylon locking bit would get loose. That kit comes with a new nut and always replace it.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/audi-v … j0498625oe

  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

therood wrote:

On front-wheel-drive cars, endurance racing kills wheel bearings and half-shafts just because that's what endurance racing does. Lots of heat inside the hub no matter what you do, lots of cornering load changing directions, etc. You can dig into root causes, but a lot of Lemons is reverse-engineering from the symptoms.

Here's what I'd do, if you have time:

(1) Throw a set of fresh, GOOD bearings on it. Don't buy the "Economy" ones off RockAuto.
(2) Go to a junkyard, buy a spare set of hubs, and load those with another set of GOOD bearings.
(3) On the way to the track, stop at a parts store with a liberal return policy for a pair of half-shafts. Keep the receipt and have them on hand, return them if you don't need them. (Or just keep them if you're not a cheapass like me.)
(4) Savor the cruel universe of endurance racing when the thing that fails is the one thing for which you don't have a spare.

Don't skimp on brake pads or brake fluid.

Other than that, don't rev the ABA to the moon and keep an eye on the temp gauge. An ABA-powered Golf finished fourth overall—and just 39 seconds away from SECOND place—and won Class B at NJMP on the "TOTAL HORSEPOWER TRACK" that is Thunderbolt in 2019. They're light and pretty easy on gas/tires/brakes but have some VW quirks. 120ish HP is plenty for a new Lemons team, you'll do fine.

Sound advice all around, thank you! Ours has an AEG in it, looking forward to June smile

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

9 Reply by Raoul Duke (edited by Raoul Duke 2022-04-01 03:45 PM)

  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

duthehustle93 wrote:

You can abuse bearings pretty heavily, as long as they are properly lubricated. Good grease, properly packed, will extend the life of them dramatically. A lot of people have had success extending wheel bearing life in the miata community by repacking them (I'm not sure if your wheel bearings are serviceable so just ignore me if they aren't serviceable by mortals) with Amsoil dominator grease or Redline CV-2. I've had mixed results but I think the times that I've had early failure after repacking was due to me contaminating the bearings or over/under packing. I believe for deep groove at our wheel speeds calls for a 30-40% pack, but who can accurately eyeball that amount or confirm that number is even correct is beyond me.

If you aren't comfortable with repacking, as others have mentioned, get a good brand and keep em cool and that'll go a long way. If you can keep them cool enough to where the grease can keep doing it's job you'll be pretty good.

Golf bearings are cartridge type, so in theory, not serviceable. That said, I've read that people pry the seal out, repack them with "good" grease, and reassemble. I think I will just use the German FAG kit that was suggested, and bring 2x of everything up front.

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

MFBense wrote:

I have a few years experience with the mk4 platform so ask away if you need anything more specific. The front bearings were the bane of my existence. I had exactly what Eric recommended. Spare set of knuckles loaded ready to slap on Saturday night is 100% necessary. If your speed increases you will eat bearings faster. Stick with FAG brand from FCPeuro that come with the lifetime warranty (see link below) One of the main problems we found was the stub axle nut would overheat and the nylon locking bit would get loose. That kit comes with a new nut and always replace it.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/audi-v … j0498625oe

THX for the tip- I will get a full set of spares for all item up front.

Back in the day there was (perhaps still is) a UK race series of trucks (tractor trailer type) that used water injection to cool the front brakes/hub...hmmm tongue

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • Mick25
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Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Former MK2 Golf Lemons Racer here.  We were at the sharp end of the speed curve when racing the Golf (multiple top 5 overall finishes), and NEVER had a front wheel bearing failure.  However, we did all the above recommendations, and inspected the front wheels at every opportunity.  Finding GOOD bearings is a mandatory duty.  Run cooling pipes to the brakes/hubs.  Stake the axle nut as well, don't rely on the nylok, and you cannot get the nut too tight.  If you check the lug bolts, check the axle nut as well.  We swapped out half shafts every 3-5 races if we even thought it may have wear, they were cheap.

#508 Team SOB
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!
  • Registered: 2018-03-13
  • Posts: 16

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

On our A4 which uses similar bearings we've never had one fail, but I've taken to replacing them after every race or after a couple track days anyhow.  Its cheap and really not that difficult after you do it a few times.  I have found that seals tend to be pretty well shot (they get melty) at the end of a race or after a couple track days even on good bearings.  On a related note, I safety wire the inner axle bolts that hold the axle to the transmission flange to keep them from backing out.  Our first race we had 10 of 12 that had backed out to some degree.

  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Mick25 wrote:

Former MK2 Golf Lemons Racer here.  We were at the sharp end of the speed curve when racing the Golf (multiple top 5 overall finishes), and NEVER had a front wheel bearing failure.  However, we did all the above recommendations, and inspected the front wheels at every opportunity.  Finding GOOD bearings is a mandatory duty.  Run cooling pipes to the brakes/hubs.  Stake the axle nut as well, don't rely on the nylok, and you cannot get the nut too tight.  If you check the lug bolts, check the axle nut as well.  We swapped out half shafts every 3-5 races if we even thought it may have wear, they were cheap.

Roger that, and thanks for taking the time to reply, that goes for ALL of you!

We are going to run ducts from each side of the lower valance into 3" hose, and I will concoct a way to aim said CFM at the rear of the hub/bearing.

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

points1928 wrote:

On our A4 which uses similar bearings we've never had one fail, but I've taken to replacing them after every race or after a couple track days anyhow.  Its cheap and really not that difficult after you do it a few times.  I have found that seals tend to be pretty well shot (they get melty) at the end of a race or after a couple track days even on good bearings.  On a related note, I safety wire the inner axle bolts that hold the axle to the transmission flange to keep them from backing out.  Our first race we had 10 of 12 that had backed out to some degree.

Man, I thought the CV bolts backing out only happened on 80's Porsches wink

HEARD- and will get the SW and fine drill out this week end - THX!

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

therood wrote:

Don't skimp on brake pads or brake fluid.

Currently, we have HAWK blues, MOTUL 660 and stainless lines. Adequate?

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

therood wrote:

*120, 121...whatever it takes.

Before he was Batman tongue

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 668

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:
therood wrote:

Don't skimp on brake pads or brake fluid.

Currently, we have HAWK blues, MOTUL 660 and stainless lines. Adequate?

I don't know Hawk, but many people have had great experience with Raybestos ST-43 pads that will last multiple races.  You could always call or email with Porterfield brakes in CA and tell them what you are doing.  They sell Hawk, ST43 and many other racing brake pads for all types of motorsports.  Stay away from drilled rotors, blanks are good.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • Registered: 2018-03-13
  • Posts: 16

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

We run the hawk blues, ate type 200 fluid and stainless lines on our setup and they have worked out just fine.  VAG brake parts are like legos, I'm sure there are a bunch of caliper/carrier/rotor options you can round up to make braking the least of your concerns if you want to scour some junkyards and/or forums for parts.

  • Registered: 2022-03-30
  • Posts: 24

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing
  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

There are plenty of folks I am sure but that is literally the last thing you need to be focusing on attempting to get to your first race.

Get it to pass tech
Get there with an actual team
Get it reliable

Odds are you will be VERY challenged to accomplish the above goals.

21 Reply by Max (edited by Max 2022-04-12 08:37 AM)

  • Max
  • Max
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  • From: Parker, CO
  • Registered: 2018-08-05
  • Posts: 141

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

I looked back at last year's HPR races and found a 2002 Golf that raced in June and its fasted lap was a 2:30.1. 


In my inexpert opinion you "should" be able to put down a sub-2:30 time at HPR in just about any car running 200TW tires.  If you can consistently run low to mid 2:20 times you'll be in the thick of it in June.  Run clean, keep your pit stops short, and have no major mechanical issues and finish in the top 10. 

Shot in the dark - were you at HPR this last Sunday?  We were there and I remember seeing an older black VW hatch with a cage.

  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 668

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Here is the last two entry lists:
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=40037
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=40238

You can look on speedhive at the results:
https://speedhive.mylaps.com/
https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Events/1913867
https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Events/1867470

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • Registered: 2012-03-01
  • Posts: 15

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Max wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

I looked back at last year's HPR races and found a 2002 Golf that raced in June and its fasted lap was a 2:30.1. 


In my inexpert opinion you "should" be able to put down a sub-2:30 time at HPR in just about any car running 200TW tires.  If you can consistently run low to mid 2:20 times you'll be in the thick of it in June.  Run clean, keep your pit stops short, and have no major mechanical issues and finish in the top 10. 

Shot in the dark - were you at HPR this last Sunday?  We were there and I remember seeing an older black VW hatch with a cage.

I'm one of the other guys on Raoule's team and can confirm that we had our first shake down/track day on Sunday at HPR. Afternoon session. It was a blast, but that car is a little on the slow side. The fastest we were able to get to was the low 2:30s which brought up another question that I maybe should ask in a different thread, but oh well. In this type of race, how important are the tires? We're currently running some off brand 420TW, high mileage tire that came with the car and have been debating on what to do tire wise. We're not worried about spending the money on tires, just curious as to how much difference it actually makes when you're in a crowd all the time. Thoughts?

24 Reply by Max

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Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Jimmydoorlocks wrote:
Max wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

I looked back at last year's HPR races and found a 2002 Golf that raced in June and its fasted lap was a 2:30.1. 


In my inexpert opinion you "should" be able to put down a sub-2:30 time at HPR in just about any car running 200TW tires.  If you can consistently run low to mid 2:20 times you'll be in the thick of it in June.  Run clean, keep your pit stops short, and have no major mechanical issues and finish in the top 10. 

Shot in the dark - were you at HPR this last Sunday?  We were there and I remember seeing an older black VW hatch with a cage.

I'm one of the other guys on Raoule's team and can confirm that we had our first shake down/track day on Sunday at HPR. Afternoon session. It was a blast, but that car is a little on the slow side. The fastest we were able to get to was the low 2:30s which brought up another question that I maybe should ask in a different thread, but oh well. In this type of race, how important are the tires? We're currently running some off brand 420TW, high mileage tire that came with the car and have been debating on what to do tire wise. We're not worried about spending the money on tires, just curious as to how much difference it actually makes when you're in a crowd all the time. Thoughts?

Ha, cool, something about that car seemed lemony.  We were driving our purple Miata with the angry face and big wang. 

Yes, better tires will almost certainly lower your lap times and will make a difference on race-day.  The vast majority of crowd of cars will be running 200TW tires so, if you want to be able to hang with most everyone else, you'll likely want 200TW tires too.  Getting out-powered on the straights is one thing but getting out-braked and out-cornered by all but the most lemony cars gets old. 

We ran Direzza ZIII tires for our first few races before switching to Hankook R-S4 tires.  The Direzzas were a bit stickier and lasted one race weekend before they were absolutely toast.  The Hankooks are close to as quick as the Direzaas but last MUCH longer.  It's honestly insane how well the R-S4s hold up.  No joke, the tires on our Miata have over 800 HPR laps on them and there is still a bit of life in them.

  • From: Camarillo, CA
  • Registered: 2021-03-26
  • Posts: 385

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Tires make a HUGE difference, especially in hotter climates. Ignoring speed and drivability, all seasons just aren't designed to tolerate abuse like anything 200TW or less.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i