Topic: Water cooled brakes

The caravan, as best I can conjecture, cannot be much faster so I need to focus on handling and braking.

My team and I have been discussing that and one thought was focused on brake cooling. We’ll definitely have the best brake components we can afford, but then do some extra because engineering nonsense is the fun of this game.

Our solution is:

1. Ducted air vents to the brakes from the front fog light holes.

2. Windshield wiper fluid ports installed at the entrance.

3. Wire the pump to the brake light with an in-line toggle, so it’s not pumping water on cold brakes.

The hopeful outcome is that the ports pump water mist into the air being funneled to the brakes, enhancing cooling, more specifically preventing the worst of heating during hard braking, by max cooling during braking.

Questions are these:

Will this violate any rules or norms about fluids on the track? I see rules about fuel and exhaust leaks, but water isn’t mentioned in the rules explicitly.

Is the cooling while braking the optimal set up or should we do something else?

Has anyone done anything similar with good or bad outcomes?

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Water cooled brakes

I like where your head is at... but no I wouldn't do that. We've misted our radiator in the pits with a garden sprayer, but that was a mist that evaporated before dripping, and we weren't using it on track.

I was at sonoma when I almost wrecked into the wall between T10 and T11...it's narrow there with no runoff and a wall on the side because you've gotta be missing a brain to somehow wreck there. I was WOT on the left side of the straight when all of a sudden the car shoots sideways to the left.. something about looking at a wall a car-length's away with your car countersteered at full lock really makes you shit your pants. Turns out the coolsuit cooler in our trunk popped open somehow and dumped about a gallon of water in the trunk that somehow migrated it's way forward through an assortment of holes and channels in the chassis, and somehow started a steady stream right in front of the rear driver wheel. Our torsen diff did what it does best, sensing torque, and immediately gave power to the passenger side with lots of grip and pulled it from the driver side that is now in standing water.

What you're suggesting is basically purposefully causing this situation which would be dangerous for you and other drivers. Run some 3" ducting and you'd be surprised how well it works.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Water cooled brakes

I’m not sure it’s the same. The mist is well away from the wheels and would never be a stream. Aimed at the brakes, I’d be surprised if any liquid even touched concrete. Beyond that, a system failure would be unlikely to dump much water because the reservoir would be up and before a pump.

I hear the concern, but I think this is different in enough ways to matter.  I think an intentional intermittent mist and and accidental dump of a reservoir are materially different, not least of which is that your example is an edge case. If the dumped reservoir issue was common enough to be a concern, there’d be more rules about how to secure the reservoirs for cool suits.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Water cooled brakes

Just buy good race pads, put in air ducting and don't worry about it.  Do you think a corner worker will know the difference between water and gas dripping off your car and just black flag you for leaking fuel?

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Water cooled brakes

zac.s.caldwell wrote:

Will this violate any rules or norms about fluids on the track? I see rules about fuel and exhaust leaks, but water isn’t mentioned in the rules explicitly.

It's a problem under Rule 3.8.7. "If any staff member sees a suspect leak, you will be immediately black-flagged..." The key word there is "suspect." Any leaking fluid will get you flagged, as the flaggers have to assume the worst, so it's a fuel leak until proven otherwise. If they see the leak again, you get flagged again. Nobody is going to say "Oh, now that we know that car is deliberately spraying water from its underside, we'll go ahead and assume the leak isn't fuel this time."

zac.s.caldwell wrote:

Is the cooling while braking the optimal set up or should we do something else?

Water has a pretty good heat capacity and heat of vaporization but my guess (based on my Ph.D. in thermal transport, yes, really) is that a washer-nozzle mist during braking isn't going to gain you anything noticeable in terms of cooling. If you try to direct more water than that at the brakes, you're quickly back to the problem of getting flagged and/or needlessly contaminating the track surface right in the braking zones, which is to say precisely the locations where you are least likely to make friends by doing so.

zac.s.caldwell wrote:

Has anyone done anything similar...

I hope not.

zac.s.caldwell wrote:

If the dumped reservoir issue was common enough to be a concern, there’d be more rules about how to secure the reservoirs for cool suits.

Lemons strives to avoid a lengthy set of rules, as it's impossible to cover everything anyway. There are a lot of things not explicitly named item-for-item in the rules that still won't be allowed on track. I doubt this proposed spraying system would be allowed.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

6 (edited by chaase 2022-04-19 01:13 PM)

Re: Water cooled brakes

You do not want water sprayed on the brakes. if there is any kind of problem and too much water gets on the rotor, your braking will be compromised. You can install ducting to help keep them cool.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Water cooled brakes

IMO brake 'upgrade' solutions don't usually generate the desired outcome.  Think about these two questions:

1. What really stops your car?  Hint: It's not the brakes.

2. Can your current brake setup lock the wheels, at will, every lap, for the entire race, without fade?  If your answer is "yes" your brakes are currently doing all they can do as limited by the correct answer to question #1.

FWIW, we have ZERO ducting on our FWD car.  We have never had brake fade or the inability to lock the wheels on our non-ABS setup.  The ST-43 pads we run usually last at LEAST three entire races, maybe longer depending on the track.   

As always YMMV.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Water cooled brakes

VKZ24 wrote:

What really stops your car?  Hint: It's not the brakes.

Is the correct answer my own breathtaking incompetence? In my experience that's typically what stops my cars.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

9 (edited by VKZ24 2022-04-19 12:36 PM)

Re: Water cooled brakes

mharrell wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

What really stops your car?  Hint: It's not the brakes.

Is the correct answer my own breathtaking incompetence? In my experience that's typically what stops my cars.


Remove the wheels and tires from your car and let me know how fast your car stops using the brakes.

Tires stop the car.  Hence better sticky tires, stop quicker than all-season bricks.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Water cooled brakes

But conversely, get sticky enough tires and you exceed the amount of torque your brakes can apply to stop them. It's an engineering compromise like everything. As the grip on the tire goes up, your brakes have more work to do in a shorter amount of time, and will either be overwhelmed and fail or will under perform and just suck.

I don't know what "The Best Brake Components You Can Afford" means. But, you'll always end up at some limiting factor without unlimited funds.

So your performance is still limited by your brakes. You'll either need to slow down to the limit of your brakes. Or start figuring out how to get a big set of Willwoods on a Caravan.

Venting helps. But it doesn't help Stopping force, it helps you not losing stoping force as you continue past your first stop. Which is good for a road course.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Water cooled brakes

VKZ24 wrote:

Remove the wheels and tires from your car and let me know how fast your car stops using the brakes.

I tried that once between turns 8b and 9 at The Ridge and the car stopped just fine. It took a while to get it going again afterwards, though, so I don't recommend this approach.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/sites/default/files/articles/2013/10/LeMons-9.jpg

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

12 (edited by chaase 2022-04-19 01:14 PM)

Re: Water cooled brakes

Guildenstern wrote:

But conversely, get sticky enough tires and you exceed the amount of torque your brakes can apply to stop them. It's an engineering compromise like everything. As the grip on the tire goes up, your brakes have more work to do in a shorter amount of time, and will either be overwhelmed and fail or will under perform and just suck.

For your average car, the tires are limiting factor in braking. if you put more tire (or a stickier tire) under the car, then you might have to upgrade the brakes to take advantage of the new grip. Going bigger on tires can end up making things worse because you end up adding rotational mass to the  drive train. Removing weight from the vehicle helps the engine, tires and the brakes so make sure to remove as much as possible.  It ends up going back and forth with a lot of give and take.

Best bet is to build a safe car. Put a quality pad and fresh, high temperature brake fluid in it and see where you go. You are not at the point of optimizing a vehicle. Get it on the track safely and then see where you end up. Don't get wrapped up too much on speed and lap times until the car is done and its been on the track.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Water cooled brakes

I support the amount of overthinking going on in this thread, well done.


Don't water cool your brakes. For one, you risk cracking the rotors if it doesn't work as designed. (you do not want to shock an over heated rotor). For another, you run the risk of black flags and then having to explain to the judges that you're spraying water at your brakes. Neither of those reasons even consider anything performance oriented but are enough to shut down the idea.



Use good brake pads, and even more importantly use good racing fluid. You can absolutely boil cheap street fluid, and boiled fluid is horrifying. It doesn't come on gradually like pad fade, you go from functional brakes to a pedal on the firewall in-between presses. Add brake ducts if it makes you feel better.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Water cooled brakes

You're about 10 years too late at an attempt to win the "Most Dangerous Banned Technology" award.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

15 (edited by duthehustle93 2022-04-20 11:18 AM)

Re: Water cooled brakes

zac.s.caldwell wrote:

I’m not sure it’s the same. The mist is well away from the wheels and would never be a stream. Aimed at the brakes, I’d be surprised if any liquid even touched concrete. Beyond that, a system failure would be unlikely to dump much water because the reservoir would be up and before a pump.

I hear the concern, but I think this is different in enough ways to matter.  I think an intentional intermittent mist and and accidental dump of a reservoir are materially different, not least of which is that your example is an edge case. If the dumped reservoir issue was common enough to be a concern, there’d be more rules about how to secure the reservoirs for cool suits.

Murphy's law is a bitch... I understand it's not the same mechanism, but the potential result is the same. What happens when your hose or mist nozzle breaks on one of the two sprayers and your driver kicks on the pump motor? My point is that you're intentionally putting your team and other teams in danger by doing this. The point I was trying to make is once Murphy's law kicks in on your "engineered" brake cooling apparatus the vehicle is going to shoot you harder than losing a wheel (I've shot off a wheel mid-corner, a wet single corner under throttle was way worse).

Also, there is a rule for securing cool suit reservoirs... the ratchet strap required per rules somehow broke. Now we have 3 redundant methods holding down our ice chest. Again, Murphy's law... especially with anything that is or could be safety related.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Water cooled brakes

duthehustle93 wrote:

Also, there is a rule for securing cool suit reservoirs.

I have not seen that rule.  Can you post it please?

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Water cooled brakes

VKZ24 wrote:
duthehustle93 wrote:

Also, there is a rule for securing cool suit reservoirs.

I have not seen that rule.  Can you post it please?


3.6.8     Cockpit De-Scuzzification.  Large items like cool-suit chests must be extremely well secured by purpose-built metal retainers or at least two very well secured, heavy-duty, fully ratcheting tie-down straps.

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(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: Water cooled brakes

BigBird wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:
duthehustle93 wrote:

Also, there is a rule for securing cool suit reservoirs.

I have not seen that rule.  Can you post it please?


3.6.8     Cockpit De-Scuzzification.  Large items like cool-suit chests must be extremely well secured by purpose-built metal retainers or at least two very well secured, heavy-duty, fully ratcheting tie-down straps.

I've also seen teams get black flagged for water dripping out of a spilled cooler. They were sent back on the track quickly but it still cost them a lap or two.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Water cooled brakes

BigBird wrote:

3.6.8     Cockpit De-Scuzzification.  Large items like cool-suit chests must be extremely well secured by purpose-built metal retainers or at least two very well secured, heavy-duty, fully ratcheting tie-down straps.

Thanks! 

Ours is secure (bolted to the floor), but I didn't recall seeing it actually written in the rule book.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Water cooled brakes

chaase wrote:

I've also seen teams get black flagged for water dripping out of a spilled cooler. They were sent back on the track quickly but it still cost them a lap or two.


This is more of the answer I was looking for.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Water cooled brakes

By the way.....
Three pedal mafia's Toyota Cressida was leading the race when a water drip from their cool-suit cooler got them Black flagged!

Manny

Re: Water cooled brakes

Heat up a pan really hot on your stove. Then toss cold water into it...

Aside from thermal shock what you describe will likely do nothing to prevent brake fade.

Get good quality pads and respectable rotors. Make sure you're using good brake fluid (Like RBF600)

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)