Topic: When $500 isn't $500

After following this "Miata skipped the curse" drama for the past few days, and listening to all the opinions given, I've gotta wonder; where are we, the race teams, taking Lemons racing?  When I first heard of Lemons racing it all seemed quite simple to me.  Find a car for less than $500 and turn it into a race car.  Said formula netted us an 80th place finish at CMP this past spring and was a blast.  But as you meet other teams and follow the posts on the forums you begin to see that others interpret the $500 rule a little differently.

But what if $500 has to be the bottom line at the end of the day?  Well that of course opens things up dramatically.  Spec Miatas, SCCA E30's, Mustang Cobra's and even Corvettes become viable options.  Heck, I bet you could make money turning a corvette into a Lemon's racer, those Vette guys pay top dollar for OEM parts (I should know, I used to be one).  Over on another post "cpmskinny" made the comment that he could buy a $40,000 Ferrari and sell off $39,500 worth of parts to come in at budget.  I hope he was kidding, but he'd be legal.

I know you can do this, and I know even Judge Martin has challenged someone to try a Corvette, but should we?  I cannot speak for Jay and company regarding their intentions when they had this idea.  Did they intend for people to buy expensive sports cars and part them off to come in under budget?  My gut says probably not, but what do I know.  As the name implies, one would think you should buy a car on it's last leg (a lemon) and give it a glorious death on a race track for fun.

Now I've got no problem racing against the "totally legit based on the rules" spec whatever.  They're just another car on the track to me.  Some people are just hyper competitive and will do anything within and just outside the rules to win.  That's OK.  But as for our team, we'll stick to our $100 Colt and race her till she dies.  And we will have a blast the whole time, whether we come in first or last.  But this is Lemons racing, and you never know when the stars might align just right and the little Colt sneaks in a 1st place finish!

Mike
Lab Rats Motorsports
1988 Mitsubishi/Dodge/Fiat Colt Carpocalypse Edition

Re: When $500 isn't $500

I think the rules would have a way of evening things out

If you bought a Ferrari I kind of think Jay would have a hard time not buying it for $500, well if it made it past the curse of everyone being pissed that are racing a Ferrari.  While it may be legit I think the unruley mob might have something to say if you don't follow the spirit of the events

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Re: When $500 isn't $500

I wouldn't bring a Vette unless I was prepared to leave it behind, with or without $500.  It would probably get cursed or claimed.  I also think the judges would exercise some judgement in whether or not a car violated the spirit and cap of $500 racing.  Saying a Vette was still a $1000 car means 50 penalty laps, taking the car out of competition in terms of winning.  Throw in some aggressive driving and the crowd would take it from there.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: When $500 isn't $500

We know a Lemons car when we see one. That's about all there is to it. You can hair-split rules all you want, but it really comes down to being on board with the spirit of the race or not.

POS Corvette with dirt-stock suspension and a thick binder of documentation proving that X dollars of parts were sold to offset a purchase price of Y will get through BS Inspection no problem. As for convincing the other teams not to give you the curse... well, how freakin' hard is it to do something like this?

http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2009/01/thumb800x800_3175280459_37d9e1d6f2_o.jpg

Re: When $500 isn't $500

So we need to turn it into our 6th grade science fair.

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Re: When $500 isn't $500

BoB wrote:

So we need to turn it into our 6th grade science fair.

Exactly.

Re: When $500 isn't $500

You are giving the other teams too much credit - 4th grade...

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: When $500 isn't $500

Lets examine the possibility of a Lemons Ferrari.  Lets be realistic here and say basically the cheapest Ferrari you could pick up would be a 308 or a Mondial... MAYBE you could find a 400i somewhere for real cheap but why bother.  These can be purchased for a minimum of $20k (from what I've seen). Now being that you need to keep the engine and suspension, do you really believe there is a desireable enough market that you can make up $19,500 worth of parts stripping it?  Doubtful, unless you started pulling body panels, then its like why bother, you lose the advantage of it being a Ferrari.  Not like any of those cars are super light or make monster power stock.  The same could be done with a junkyard IROC without all the trouble.    And the complete worst part, anyone whos owned one of these Italian wonders knows that they are about as reliable as Mussolini was to the Germans in WWII, and spares can't be had cheap or at the local parts store. 

My Point?  Its not so simple to pull off this feat, and in the end you will likely be putting yourself at a disadvantage. 

The Corvette, that would be a stretch but maybe posible.  The only way it would be worth it is if you found a clapped out really early C4, and for reliability youd want an 85 or 86 to get TPI instead of cease-fire injection.    You could go with a late C3 and also be stuck with said cease fire injection, and a heavier car that makes even less HP.  If you can get your hands on a really bad 85 Vette and part out most of it you MIGHT come close to having a Vette for $500 that is competitive and retains the advantages of being a Vette.  I just don't see the parts values coming in to offset the stuff thats really worth money (suspension pieces, engine, and body parts), the stuff you would sell is likely to be quite worn and not in the best of shape, therefore not worth a ton.  Plus I don't see THAT much of a competitive advantage, but it would still be cool to do!

Now where this can get shady...... Forget the supercars, how about picking up a first year WRX that was like rolled or something.  I would say its entirely possible to pull off the $500 feat after parts sales with this car, and it would have a VERY good chance of dominating all....

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: When $500 isn't $500

I'd like to think we stepped it up to 8th grade at Reno

although we learned a lot from the Miata's sandwich board smile

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3567/3551115433_ea966373c3.jpg?v=0

Re: When $500 isn't $500

RogueLeader wrote:

Forget the supercars, how about picking up a first year WRX that was like rolled or something.  I would say its entirely possible to pull off the $500 feat after parts sales with this car, and it would have a VERY good chance of dominating all....

You know the way to dominate Lemons? Drive medium-quick laps, don't break the car, and don't get penalties. No need to be the fastest; the winning car at No Problem had the 9th fastest best lap time, out of 46 starters.

Which doesn't mean we wouldn't be happy to see a legit $500 WRX or Corvette, of course. Such a car would be lots of fun at Lemons... but don't bet on it to win. Remember all the folks who screamed about how that Subaru SVX was going to totally pwn at the first CMP race?

Re: When $500 isn't $500

Hey, let's not discourage people from bringing a Lemons Ferrari. It would:

1. Piss off Ferrari people
2. Explode in semi-dangerous and hilarious fashion
3. Destroy anyone's half-assed Magnum PI theme.

Personally I don't see a downside.

Re: When $500 isn't $500

A consideration might be to not allow people to sell things off thier car to reclaim $$$.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: When $500 isn't $500

MurileeMartin wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:

Forget the supercars, how about picking up a first year WRX that was like rolled or something.  I would say its entirely possible to pull off the $500 feat after parts sales with this car, and it would have a VERY good chance of dominating all....

You know the way to dominate Lemons? Drive medium-quick laps, don't break the car, and don't get penalties. No need to be the fastest; the winning car at No Problem had the 9th fastest best lap time, out of 46 starters.

Which doesn't mean we wouldn't be happy to see a legit $500 WRX or Corvette, of course. Such a car would be lots of fun at Lemons... but don't bet on it to win. Remember all the folks who screamed about how that Subaru SVX was going to totally pwn at the first CMP race?

Looking at the results thats become a pretty obvious formula to win.  I guess the point of my whole thing is trying to pull off this "super cheater" car would likely get you nowhere that any other car could, and youd likely end up wasting money, breaking your ass, and not having much fun either.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: When $500 isn't $500

The WagoVan is not fast (probably one of the slowest cars in a straight line) and it almost won last weekend.  No penalties is the key.

Re: When $500 isn't $500

As has been said, the evidence speaks for itself.  People are building cheater spec cars by selling off parts, but they're not showing up in the winner's circle race after race.  Why?  For all the aforementioned reasons.  People's curse, penalties and breakdowns.  So as long as everyone doesn't follow the trend, everything is fine.

I'd love to see someone try something exotic.  It adds variety to the race and I'll probably get to see it involved in one or more of the above mentioned pitfalls.  If my wife wouldn't kill me for it, I would TOTALLY build a Corvette Lemons racer.  An '86-'91 coupe that has been beat on for the last few years can definitely be had for $3000.  Carefully strip the interior out, remove the glass and the wheels and take a trip to the annual Corvettes at Carlisle show in PA.  Budget met in one weekend!

Overall I believe that most people see the point of Lemons and have the sense of humor it takes to race a odd ball crap car.

Mike
Lab Rats Motorsports
1988 Mitsubishi/Dodge/Fiat Colt Carpocalypse Edition

Re: When $500 isn't $500

MurileeMartin wrote:
BoB wrote:

So we need to turn it into our 6th grade science fair.

Exactly.

Don't forget the volcano.

Josh Poage
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2009 Yee-haw It's Texas
Prison Break Racing - 1986 325e #27 - 2010 Gator-o-Rama
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2011 Heaps in the Heart of Texas

17 (edited by ecugrad 2009-06-09 05:29 PM)

Re: When $500 isn't $500

I know a Lemons competitor that bought a C4 for $800 WITH a 6 point cage, and it runs, sorta.  He bought it for a track whore.

Also, you can bet on seeing a Ferrari very soon smile

Fall South 09- 23rd place
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Re: When $500 isn't $500

ecugrad wrote:

I know a Lemons competitor that bought a C4 for $800 WITH a 6 point cage, and it runs, sorta.  He bought it for a track whore.

Also, you can bet on seeing a Ferrari very soon smile

well now you've piqued my interest.....

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: When $500 isn't $500

Let me say this, the team that brings a Ferrari 308 chassis with a Fiero body gets ZERO laps, as they will be my heroes forever and ever.

And I'll give 500 laps to the team that brings a Lamborghini chassis with an Integra body on top.

That means you win just for showing up.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: When $500 isn't $500

I bet the Lambotegra could win the race, organizers choice and peoples curse all in one day.

Mike
Lab Rats Motorsports
1988 Mitsubishi/Dodge/Fiat Colt Carpocalypse Edition

Re: When $500 isn't $500

here's half of a Ferrari 365 chassis selling on ebay for $100

I'd like to see this welded to a crx front end

Team Formula BMW
#23 Pink Pig

Re: When $500 isn't $500

You know one of those cars in barns sites had a picture of a 1974 Lamborghini Countach sitting next to a barn somewhere in mid America rotting with the engine and rearend removed.  It was confirmed to be an actual Countach as well...  Wish I still had the link but I remember seeing it years ago.....

Unfortunately sounds like its too far gone to even be a Lemons car!

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: When $500 isn't $500

Got JB Weld?  Problem solved.

Mike
Lab Rats Motorsports
1988 Mitsubishi/Dodge/Fiat Colt Carpocalypse Edition

Re: When $500 isn't $500

I waiting to see one of those testarossa firebired or fieros

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Re: When $500 isn't $500

I know a lot of the rules are open for interpretation but as for myself, I did not even consider a car that would require the selling of any parts to meet our budget.  I purposely looked for a car that was listed for less than 500 bucks to make sure there was no way in heck we would get any penalty laps.  The whole selling off parts stuff has really changed my thinking as to what cars we may field in the future events.  As with any form of racing, initially it will be all for fun until a choice few will take it way too seriously, as I learned not to do in our first event at CMP this spring, and to win you will have to simply have more money than the next guy.  The competitiveness will grow due to the prestige that comes with winning a Lemons event.   By the way, a Corvette would be a do-able project, reliability...no, but handling the track until said failure would be priceless.

"Sharp as Bear Claws and Slicker Than Goose Shit"
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