Topic: Problems with going too slow?

Only 2 people on our team have any race experience. 1 did karts about 10-15 years ago and the other is in his first half-dozen races of Formula Ford. 2 Others have "track day" and autocross experience, but nothing that allowed uncontrolled passing. Everyone else would be complete rookies to a track (well, besides pre-race testing dates). We would just hope to actually finish the event without crashing, so I don't foresee any full-throttle driving from anyone.

Would getting lapped over and over and over again by nearly everyone cause us to get yanked or black-flagged? As team captain, I don't want everyone to invest $100+ travel expenses and, despite having a car that still functions perfectly well, be told we can't go on the track because we are driving too slowly.

Yes, I know things can break and it's all a risk as we may be crashed, etc. etc. I just don't want everything else to be ok and then not be able to drive the car.

For an example via comparison-- it would be like taking an old small-engined vw bus onto the California freeway while everyone else is traveling normal freeway speeds (not stopped in traffic).. We're the ones in the vw bus... And knowing Willow Springs, I imagine we would be getting lapped by frontrunners about every 4th lap.

--Spank

Re: Problems with going too slow?

ANYone has to be faster than the Pony Express smile

Just don't ignore 26 black flags like SOMEONE I know at Reno!

Don't worry about it, and if someone complains.. tell them to go around.  We're here for fun

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Your experience sounds like it's pretty comparable to what most teams bring to a Lemons race. You might be being too hard on yourself with the VW Bus analogy....

As long as you drive safe and predictable, you'll be fine. Going slow doesn't necessarily mean pissing people off--the PMS Express Mustang at Altamont a while back or the Mystery Machine minivan at Reno were perfect examples of hella slow-ass whips that were very predictable and didn't cause any trouble as a result.

If you start blocking or driving erratically, that's when the pitchforks and torches come out...but again, I wouldn't assume you'll be VW-on-the-405 slow.

Re: Problems with going too slow?

The LTD at Lemons south I showed that if you keep out of everyones way everyone is ok that you are going slow.  THey stayed on their line and kept driving.  Honestly I'm not sure if there was much difference in their speed under green or yellow.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
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Re: Problems with going too slow?

I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find one of us who have already done this tell you it's not ok to go slow.  If you're going slow it's easy to drive around you.  On the other hand, fast cars with drivers who are jerks will definitely get on everybody else's nerves.  That means people's curse.

We had a lot of car trouble at our first race and wound up crawling around the track to get back to pits a few times.  And then there was team Heavy Metal.  Their LTD was SLOW.  But they were on the track the whole weekend and wound up winning the IoE.

Come out and race.  You'll be fine and get used to things pretty quickly.  I mean, if you can handle rush hour traffic, this should be a breeze.

Mike
Lab Rats Motorsports
1988 Mitsubishi/Dodge/Fiat Colt Carpocalypse Edition

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Spank wrote:

As team captain, I don't want everyone to invest $100+ travel expenses and, despite having a car that still functions perfectly well, be told we can't go on the track because we are driving too slowly.
--Spank

Ummm... just wanted to point out this is going to cost a lot more than $100/person.  Like 8-10 times more.

Re: Problems with going too slow?

troubleonwheels wrote:

Ummm... just wanted to point out this is going to cost a lot more than $100/person.  Like 8-10 times more.

i'm talking their minimum individual investment to sign up as a driver, plus their travel expenses, of course. I'm paying for the car... it's only $500, right wink

Seriously, arrive and drive is $100 or $150 if they don't have a license. I may require them to pay for their own fuel...

--Spank

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Take a look at our car our first Lemons Race. Yes those are hard as rock whitewall tires. The judges laughed at our suspension when we went thru tech saying we would be in the wall.

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/gtodad/Racecar.jpg

We were not the fastest car (No duh...) but we drove clean and actually surprised alot of people including ourselves. Next race on better tires and new front end bushings we were much faster (still no where near the fastest) and had a great time! Moral of the story Dont worry about being crushed if your slow. Slow and a jerk will possibly get you a meeting with Mr. Crusher...

Oh and the reason we needed new front end bushings? Here is a pic of our front end after race #1. The judges were correct, but we didnt hit any walls.. smile

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/gtodad/Picture018.jpg

1980 Chevy Malibu Classic

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Where are you and can I drive for only $100 since I have a license?

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Problems with going too slow?

My first track experience was at Altamont, I got into the car drove out onto the track and flipped on my turn signal to let the other drivers know I wanted in.
Oh wait there are no lights on the car What the "H" am I doing.

Your guys will be fine!

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Spank - your costs are too low.  Cover your arse or this will not be a happy outing for you.  What if one of your drivers wraps the car around a concrete wall?  You're 100% out.  I'd ask for each of them to pony-up for at least $200 each for a damage reserve.  If the car comes back in one piece, you can refund the money.  If not, you've got the funds to rebuild or replace.  In addition to race fuel, you'll have tires, tow costs, etc.

As for being slow, we've all been there.  No worries as long as you strictly obey a key and critical rule: DRIVE YOUR LINE.  Don't try to get out of the way... just drive your standard, consistent race line.  That way, everyone will know what you're going to do next and they can adjust their line, accordingly.  In racing, it is the responsibility of the overtaking car to pass safely.  There is no rule for a slower car to get out of the way or off the racing line.  That is, unless the car is mechanically disabled and running at some ridiculously slow speed.  In that case, the slow car has the obligation to stay off the racing line.

Tell your team to maintain a consistent speed, a consistent line and watch your mirrors.  If you do that, you'll do well and we'll all consider you a heads-up driving team.

Good luck and have fun.

John

"Age only matters if you're a cheese."  Helen Hayes

Re: Problems with going too slow?

If you anticipate being a little slower than the rest of the pack, I'd recommend big mirrors to see the traffic coming from behind so you can safely get out of the way. A good number of spins are the result of rear taps from traffic trying to pass (poorly).

The Sharks
Home of the E28 Turbo Tuner Fish and the Hammered Head 944 Turbo

Re: Problems with going too slow?

SharkBait wrote:

If you anticipate being a little slower than the rest of the pack, I'd recommend big mirrors to see the traffic coming from behind so you can safely get out of the way. A good number of spins are the result of rear taps from traffic trying to pass (poorly).

My team got one of thse for the car, I would imagine it to be infinitely useful should you be unsure of your pace out there:

http://www.amazon.com/Wink-5-Panel-Pano … amp;sr=8-1

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: Problems with going too slow?

At Reno, we loved the slower cars since they were generally predictable!  You could spot them from a distance (especially the minivan) and try to set up your neighbors to get stuck by them and make the pass.

Spank wrote:

And knowing Willow Springs, I imagine we would be getting lapped by frontrunners about every 4th lap.

--Spank

If you're at Willow Springs, nobody at the Buttonwillow race will mind how slow you're going!  wink

Re: Problems with going too slow?

OverStimulated wrote:

If you're at Willow Springs, nobody at the Buttonwillow race will mind how slow you're going!  wink

Doh! I've only ever been to Buttonwillow but always hear about 3 different venues with "willow" in their names (buttonwillow, willow springs, and streets of willow) and I ALWAYS confuse them. I guess streets of willow is a course at willow springs, and Buttonwillow is by itself. OK. Got it.

RE: Drivers-- local folks in our club who chip in with labor to prep the car will be welcomed to drive.

--Spank

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Spank wrote:
OverStimulated wrote:

If you're at Willow Springs, nobody at the Buttonwillow race will mind how slow you're going!  wink

Doh! I've only ever been to Buttonwillow but always hear about 3 different venues with "willow" in their names (buttonwillow, willow springs, and streets of willow) and I ALWAYS confuse them. I guess streets of willow is a course at willow springs, and Buttonwillow is by itself. OK. Got it.

RE: Drivers-- local folks in our club who chip in with labor to prep the car will be welcomed to drive.

--Spank

And he wonders why he was wait-listed...

"Age only matters if you're a cheese."  Helen Hayes

17 (edited by jw33 2009-06-11 07:13 PM)

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Are you kidding? No one on our team had any (zero point zero) experience and we did just fine. You guys will do as good as anyone else....

Shake and Bake
America, birthplace of the missionary position. You're welcome...

Re: Problems with going too slow?

professional.dreamer wrote:


As for being slow, we've all been there.  No worries as long as you strictly obey a key and critical rule: DRIVE YOUR LINE.  Don't try to get out of the way... just drive your standard, consistent race line.  That way, everyone will know what you're going to do next and they can adjust their line, accordingly.  In racing, it is the responsibility of the overtaking car to pass safely.  There is no rule for a slower car to get out of the way or off the racing line.  That is, unless the car is mechanically disabled and running at some ridiculously slow speed.  In that case, the slow car has the obligation to stay off the racing line.

For the love of Dog, will someone please sticky this?  I've had waaaay too many people come off-line at the last second, forcing me to take evasive action.  Really, it's just that simple.  If you're slow, stay on line.  The overtaking car has the responsibility to complete the pass.  That's it. 
I get that you're "trying to make it easier", but you're not.  You're being unpredictable.  Unpredictable causes accidents.  If I know that you're lapping at 30 seconds off the pace, but you do the same thing every time I pass you, I'm going to wave and say "thank you" to you later in the pits.  It makes my job easier, and makes the whole deal safer.
Now, if I do something stupid while passing you, that's a whole 'nother kettle o'fish...  big_smile

Oh, and while we're ranting, unless somebody points you by, assume that they have no idea that you're there.  Remember, it is your responsibility as the pass-er to make sure that the pass-ee knows that you're doing it. 

OK, I'm crawling back under my rock now...  cool

TST, fool.

It's a Bunny.  With a pancake.  On its head.  Really, is it that tough?

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Use Point Bys!!!

People were giving point bys at NPR and it was great.  I pointed a guy by and didn't see the car behind him too.  That almost got messy, oops. 

Like others have said, your driving experiece seems pretty typical. 

Show up, have fun, play nice and everyone will have a great weekend.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Having a slower car maintain and drive a standard, consistent line is, by far, the most important factor for an overtaking car to pass safely.  Pointing is good, too -- however, that means you're expecting the driver of the slower car would be using his/her mirrors, which is something Newbies are not prone to do.  Hell, even most Lemons veterans don't do it.  Drivers have a tendancy to focus so much on where they're going and the racing line that they completely forget about mirrors until they hit some straightaway... where it really doesn't matter much because the more powerful cars are going to blow-by them before they figure out who's behind them.  It takes practice and training to be able to drive corners with one eye looking forward and one eye looking back.  Eventually, good (and fast) drivers refer to their mirrors throughout the corner to drive a defensive line against the cars behind them.

Give the Newbs some time and they'll get it ... but PLEASE stay on the driving line!

John

"Age only matters if you're a cheese."  Helen Hayes

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Y'know, I was thinking about this last night, and realized that there are probably lots of folks who run this race who have no freaking clue where the line is.  It's not really their fault, they just don't know.  I was on a team one time with a guy who thought the racing line was the line on the side of the track.  No, I'm not making that up.  hmm
It becomes second nature as you gain experience to look for a racing line, but if you haven't had someone show you how to find it, you could be flying blind.  That would probably explain some of the wacky things I've seen people do.
So, if you don't know where/what the line is, it may behoove you to ask somebody.  In fact, would it be possible for Lemons to publish a track map showing the preferred lines for each track?  Maybe just aggregate something from the websites of each venue, and have them available for download -or- include them in the packet at each event.
Nick?  Jay?  You listening?

TST, fool.

It's a Bunny.  With a pancake.  On its head.  Really, is it that tough?

Re: Problems with going too slow?

casadelshawn wrote:

<snip>

So, if you don't know where/what the line is, it may behoove you to ask somebody.  In fact, would it be possible for Lemons to publish a track map showing the preferred lines for each track?  Maybe just aggregate something from the websites of each venue, and have them available for download -or- include them in the packet at each event.

<snip>

Let's make the new guys do their own work - but give them the tools to do so.

May I suggest a (the) resource that got me into auto racing? (never mind that I haven't raced on an open track yet!)

This book was was the foundation to my working with VARA down in SoCal, doing the Jim Russell school, which lead to enough confidence to learn how to survive/ride motorcycles on the streets in the Bay Area - and it was a book my dad had when he was a teenager driving his Beetle, TR3, and '65 (?) Mustang back in Montana as a kid.  Needless to say, it's both classic and still relevant:

It's Piero Taruffi's _The Technique of Motor Racing_. 

http://www.amazon.com/Technique-Motor-R … 0837602289

Find a copy, grab a beverage and an uninterrupted hour, and read about how racing is about the driver, not the technology.

(it's in print, too! you lucky dogs)

-Jeff

Re: Problems with going too slow?

I'm the snail of our crew!
Don't be surprised if your inner animal will come out on the track .

What car are you driving/building?

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
Lemons Trophy Truck ShaGuar Baby!

Re: Problems with going too slow?

professional.dreamer wrote:

Drivers have a tendancy to focus so much on where they're going and the racing line...

Perhaps they're just adhering to the first rule of Italian driving?

1978 AMC Pacer - The Blue Flag Special
BFE GP '12 - IOE
BFE GP '13 - Co-Organizer's Choice w/ Speed Holes Wrenching

Re: Problems with going too slow?

Like Overstimulated said  I like the slow cars especially when you get to turns and you can box someone out .

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
Lemons Trophy Truck ShaGuar Baby!