1,126

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Scotty wrote:

Well then my second suggestion was a 4 gear transfercase the monster trucks use. You can get them right off the shelf. It does look like you have a plan that will get the car rolling. Wide open Baja is a cool deal.  In Robby's trophy truck the engine is behind the driver facing backwards. The trans is directly hooked to that. Then a driveshaft goes to the front of the car into a castel v-drive and back into a normal rear diff.

Happy Wrenching!

yeah, those transfer cases are awesome and would work. but they are about $4000 or so for the cheap ones. they even have some that have a 3:1 ratio with direction reversing. it's perfect other than the price.

i do have a cassale V-drive which was my initial intention. fairly bulletproof unit but decided against it due to the gas tank location and the required body modifications to get it in there.

you can see it here with a 1-ton transfer case low range box to get the proper ratio:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0121.jpg

1,127

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

miniscule update:

found the seal needed to close off the modified GT3000 box and managed to pick up another manufacturer in there.

2000 Isuzu Hombre camshaft seal smile (part: 712008)

i also ordered the goldwing driveshaft so i have the mating spline to the final drive box.

1,128

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

What is it that you do again? Do you work in a transmission shop or are you just a professional collector of random driveline components?

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Team FinalGear

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

EyeMWing wrote:

What is it that you do again? Do you work in a transmission shop or are you just a professional collector of random driveline components?

A company with over a hundred years of automotive/vehicle experience.  It wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of odd stuff is laying around his shop...

Hell, I work on a computer all day and still have a melted down piston on my bookshelf.  (Not one of ours!)

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
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1,130

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

EyeMWing wrote:

What is it that you do again? Do you work in a transmission shop or are you just a professional collector of random driveline components?

I write software for the automotive industry. well, currently for the heavy trucking industry (Navistar)  smile I've also done work for Acura, OnStar and GM in the past.

the shafts and such i do keep around, the strength of a transmission shaft is ridiculously high and has convenient things like splines already on it. I've got a small bin of them. that one in particular is out of my daily driver, when i swapped the 3.5L V6 into my MR2 i needed different gearing so that shaft had to come out.

i also keep a couple driveshafts around for their ends, some electric seat bases for their linear actuators and a few other things. but mostly, anytime i work on someone's car i make it a point to scope out all the parts and what they may be useful for in the future. the goldwing final drive was something i bought for a different project a while back. i took it apart to see the insides and ended up not using it for that. it had since gotten recycled to save space in the shop, but when i saw the need i had to fill here, i remembered it. they are very cheap due to the number of people that convert them to trikes a very low millage unit goes for $30-60 and it's a very low helix angle bevel drive.

1,131

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

EyeMWing wrote:

The real relevant question is WTF are you going to trade the turboshaft for? Railroad locomotive diesel? Warp drive?

This is going to turn into the lemony-automotive equivalent of one red paperclip (the blog where some dude wheeled and dealed from one paperclip to a house).

I'd love to see this become a McLaren F1.... lemonized.
-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
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1,132

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

gunn wrote:
EyeMWing wrote:

The real relevant question is WTF are you going to trade the turboshaft for? Railroad locomotive diesel? Warp drive?

This is going to turn into the lemony-automotive equivalent of one red paperclip (the blog where some dude wheeled and dealed from one paperclip to a house).

I'd love to see this become a McLaren F1.... lemonized.
-g

smile

it's a different chassis, but i've already got a plan to bring a lemony version of some exotic mid engined sports car to Lemons. probably for the 2013 season. the motor, suspension and frame is already sitting in my garage smile

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I always wanted to see a lemon version of this

http://youtu.be/D36g054QkDY

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1,134

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

worked on the GT3000 box yesterday:

when i opened it, there was a bit of milkshake sludge inside, but the bearings all appear fine:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OAOxYfbt14I/T2HRCWbwweI/AAAAAAAAASE/0OyQ1XDrV9c/s640/IMG_0372.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MCqsf7dzLsg/T2HRB8cvJzI/AAAAAAAAASA/YRrhRRzIqQU/s640/IMG_0373.jpg

so i made a new shaft:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hlLdP-I4a1E/T2HRhVaeRsI/AAAAAAAAASM/11WUZDINTvs/s640/IMG_0379.jpg

welded a block of aluminum at the right place and machined it to hold a seal:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LaMXNIWtpgw/T2HRBjTdwdI/AAAAAAAAAR0/0km0_nJe2OY/s640/IMG_0380.jpg

and here we are:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lW2pduGOn44/T2HRAj4lFeI/AAAAAAAAARk/3Vcn3uYU9Hg/s640/IMG_0382.jpg

and now there's enough room for a guibo joint in the middle:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KAy0u0XhmG0/T2HRA95PzBI/AAAAAAAAARs/Ijyb6KB_zqY/s640/IMG_0383.jpg

also, the matching spline for the other side is proving hard to find, i'll just weld in a pinion spline there so i can bolt on a drive shaft yoke and be done with it.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Some day you'll have to count up the number of potential failure points in this drivetrain.  It most likely would set a record.  Each shaft/gear/pinion...

This thought brought to you courtesy of your use of the word "guibo" which I immediately associate with "failure".

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

1,136

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Racin_G73 wrote:

Some day you'll have to count up the number of potential failure points in this drivetrain.  It most likely would set a record.  Each shaft/gear/pinion...

This thought brought to you courtesy of your use of the word "guibo" which I immediately associate with "failure".

at least there's no EGR system on it smile

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

just thinking about this thing, i would of never thought the "easy" part of this whole thing would be getting an old aircraft engine running inside a car.  Keep up the great work! Hopefully I get the honor of passing this thing for a second time.

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1,138

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

heywood220 wrote:

just thinking about this thing, i would of never thought the "easy" part of this whole thing would be getting an old aircraft engine running inside a car.  Keep up the great work! Hopefully I get the honor of passing this thing for a second time.

Yeah, i 2nd that opinion.

as for getting another opportunity to pass this thing. it's looking more and more like June 10th at autobahn will be where you may get a chance.

1,139 (edited by Marc 2012-03-15 07:39 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

did a bit of parts gathering today:

i found a way to easily connect the driveshaft to the 3000GT box. i'm going to weld this splined stub on the output. this way i don't have to deal with the damaged existing splines and i don't need an extra adapter to bolt on a driveshaft.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0385.jpg

the slip shaft that goes on top houses a spicer 1310 joint which should be stronger than necessary.

the goldwing end will just need an adapter plate to go from the stock goldwing bolt pattern to a 1310 u-joint.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0386.jpg

the driveshaft itself will be fixed length and very short with two 1310 joints.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:
Racin_G73 wrote:

Some day you'll have to count up the number of potential failure points in this drivetrain.  It most likely would set a record.  Each shaft/gear/pinion...

This thought brought to you courtesy of your use of the word "guibo" which I immediately associate with "failure".

at least there's no EGR system on it smile

True, that!

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

1,141

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

no machining today, but parts did come in smile

the used Guibo came in .... because these are expensive new apparently smile
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0389.jpg

the good news is, the nut and the shoulder on the gear will fit in there just fine. no need to make things extra long to make up for it.

also, the driveshaft came in and it fits great:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0390.jpg

the size of the stock goldwing joint does scare me a bit, but that output spline should see about 200lb*ft at most. the output on the goldwing box is sized bigger than the input on the transmission. certainly though, with the 3.5:1 ratio, there will be a bunch of heat generated.

1,142 (edited by Marc 2012-03-19 07:04 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Snuck off to the shop for a few hours tonight. everything machined tonight was apparently made out of stuff hard as hell. the ceramic tooling got a workout.

the driveshaft spline and mutsubishi box have been merged:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0391.jpg

the BMW drive flange and the Toyota E153 driven gear have been merged:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0392.jpg

which gives us one almost completed GT3000 box:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0394.jpg

I just have to seal the existing vent and make another one, seal the box up and fill it with oil.

i have to shorten the yoke a bit, but this is how the driveshaft attaches then:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0395.jpg

i also have to file down the blue stuff on the splines a bit, the heat from the welding did melt it a bit and it's not as good a fit as it should be anymore.

it is rather amusing though, just in this one component the power goes from:
BMW->Toyota->Mitsubishi->Dana

and that's why i call this one man band "Frankenstein Motorworks" smile

1,143

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

oh, just a heads up. this build will go dormant for a few weeks. i gotta get the other car ready for the gingerman race.

I gotta bring the kill switch up to 2012 spec, relocate the battery (to make the kill switch easier to wire) and replace the front wheel bearings.

1,144

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I thought a bit about this:

Racin_G73 wrote:

Some day you'll have to count up the number of potential failure points in this drivetrain.  It most likely would set a record.  Each shaft/gear/pinion...

which made me make a list of all the stuff in the chain:

custom fuel injection design
kinner radial engine (1936 design)
custom prop flange with alternator drive, triton V10 tone wheel, cummins turbo diesel flywheel & bmw guibo flange
custom prop nut
bmw 533i coupler
toyota MR2 MKII transmission intermediate shaft
mitsubishi 3000GT transfer case
dana driveshaft components
honda goldwing 1800 gearbox
subaru 2008 wrx flywheel
subaru 1993 2wd imprezza clutch, pressure plate and transmission
hybrid subaru & toyota MR2 MKI drive flanges
shortened passanger side MR2 MKI axle shafts

other non drive component potential failure points:
custom rear crossmember
engine & transmission mount
flywheel & goldwing holder assembly.


for the power to get from the motor to the wheels, it has to go through 11 welds that i've done. and that's not counting brackets and such that hold the things in place to counter the torque applied by the engine.

the power gets transfered between 7 joints (1 guibo, 2 u-joints, 4 CVs) and 12 gears are active at any given time (4 bevel helical , 2 strait helical, 2 hypoid, 4 spiders) to get to the ground.

the shaft changes speed a ridiculous number of times, down, up, variable, down


So if i had to put money on what would break first, i'm not sure that i could pick any one thing. but yes, it's unlikely that i'll get it all perfect. by best guess is the goldwing box will overheat

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I get the heebie jeebies looking at the welded machined shafts. From experience a few years back, hardened shafts (like CV shafts) do not like being wlded (it screws up the metal's temper and induction hardening) and have a nasty habit of breaking right next to the weld. After breaking 3 or 4 welded CV shafts, I finally had to have a set custom machined.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

1,146

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Junkyard Dog wrote:

I get the heebie jeebies looking at the welded machined shafts. From experience a few years back, hardened shafts (like CV shafts) do not like being wlded (it screws up the metal's temper and induction hardening) and have a nasty habit of breaking right next to the weld. After breaking 3 or 4 welded CV shafts, I finally had to have a set custom machined.

I'm not going to claim i know everything on this. but i used to have this problem quite a bit when i used to offroad. but then i met the guy who owns the machine shop i do all my machining at and he's taught me everything i know about this stuff. he's got an advanced degree in metallurgy and showed me how to properly weld together a shaft and make it hold.

the heating and cooling does need to be controlled and i have to use special TIG filler rod. but at the end of the day I've replaced transmission output shafts and beat them over and over without a failure now that i know how.

granted, I'm just an amateur. if one of these shafts fail it's because i misapplied the technique, not that it isn't possible.

also, other things like that BMW drive flange are welded with special rods. whenever you weld high carbon steel like gears and shafts you have to worry about making things too brittle.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

I thought a bit about this:

Racin_G73 wrote:

Some day you'll have to count up the number of potential failure points in this drivetrain.  It most likely would set a record.  Each shaft/gear/pinion...

which made me make a list of all the stuff in the chain:

custom fuel injection design
kinner radial engine (1936 design)
custom prop flange with alternator drive, triton V10 tone wheel, cummins turbo diesel flywheel & bmw guibo flange
custom prop nut
bmw 533i coupler
toyota MR2 MKII transmission intermediate shaft
mitsubishi 3000GT transfer case
dana driveshaft components
honda goldwing 1800 gearbox
subaru 2008 wrx flywheel
subaru 1993 2wd imprezza clutch, pressure plate and transmission
hybrid subaru & toyota MR2 MKI drive flanges
shortened passanger side MR2 MKI axle shafts

other non drive component potential failure points:
custom rear crossmember
engine & transmission mount
flywheel & goldwing holder assembly.


for the power to get from the motor to the wheels, it has to go through 11 welds that i've done. and that's not counting brackets and such that hold the things in place to counter the torque applied by the engine.

the power gets transfered between 7 joints (1 guibo, 2 u-joints, 4 CVs) and 12 gears are active at any given time (4 bevel helical , 2 strait helical, 2 hypoid, 4 spiders) to get to the ground.

the shaft changes speed a ridiculous number of times, down, up, variable, down


So if i had to put money on what would break first, i'm not sure that i could pick any one thing. but yes, it's unlikely that i'll get it all perfect. by best guess is the goldwing box will overheat

It'll take a miracle!  smile  I love it!

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

1,148

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Bump*

1,149

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

JdeMod wrote:

Bump*

yes?

I'm working on the crappy black MR2 for the gingerman race smile i promise i'll get back to this afterwards smile

1,150 (edited by Marc 2012-04-29 05:39 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

well, it's not much but i have a small update today.

i cleaned the shop from the gingerman race and sent off this part to get CNC'd  it's not a part i could not make, but i would be better off spending my time making other parts while this one gets made:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/guiboflange.jpg

it's the flange to weld on the prop flange that will drive the BMW guibo. since i can't insert the bolt and i have to use a threaded interface, i made two sets of holes so i can remount it if it breaks off and damages the threads.