Topic: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Please make any comments about the proposed budget.  add stuff if I've missed it, subtract stuff if it's just too high.
  $500.00    car.. (1976 Jaguar XJ-S V12) + 2 spare cars.
  $1700.       Drivers  safety gear (Lemons Basic)   (actually 2 at $425. 1@$9000 (FIA stuff with 2 helmets, 3 suits, etc.) and me $0
  $1780    Hans device 1 FIA, 1 sport and 2 neck braces..
  $ 409      Fire bottle
  $ 879      Roll Cage  (the cost of a bolt in cage, Actually I'll build my own. 
  $   34       Roll bar padding
  $ 399      Transponder
  $    27      wink mirror
  $    60        Kill switch
  $ 540        car seat
  $ 150        side mount brackets
  $   75         Seat adjuster
  $  248          Quick steering hub realease
  $1600        8 wheels (used Corvette)
  $3985        8 mounted/balanced new tires325x30x19
  $  368         brake rotors(4)
  $ 640         Calipers
  $ 746         brake pads 2 complete sets..
  $ 500         entry fee
  $ 400         drivers fee
  $ 200         license
  $ 300          Towing fuel Pick up (not part of budget) 1000 miles round trip
  $1300         Motor home rental  and fuel
  $2160         Race gas (for a 24 hour race) 4MPG race average
  $  500         meals.
  $1000         unexpected costs.
$20,000+                       Total

2 (edited by Mulry 2010-11-16 11:13 AM)

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

If you get the quick clips on the helmets, you can all share one HANS device among all your drivers without much (if any) compromise on your pit stop/driver change times.

You can use a karting transponder (AMB TranX 160) and save about a hundred bucks. Those are the ones that the Lemons org uses as their rental transponders.

A $20 fire bottle will suffice.

I don't know much about Jag brakes, but I'd bet that you can rebuild your calipers a lot cheaper than buying some.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:

$ 879      Roll Cage  (the cost of a bolt in cage, Actually I'll build my own.

Add another $400 for more tubing after your drag race cage fails tech.

http://www.ducttapemotorsports.com/
http://www.teamdfl.com
"I can see it now, a pile of nickels and all the glory of being a real race car driver."
Prepping the Red wReck for the 24 Hours of Lemons

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Do you have any tall drivers?  Take my advice and ditch the wink mirror.  It gets in the damn way.  We ditched ours for a one piece (14") panoramic one that works much better and doesn't get in my sight line.  The cost is approx the same.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

5 (edited by Jer 2010-11-16 11:21 AM)

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

I'll sell you a running, already built Miata ready for action (turn-key) for $500 plus $3000 in car safety gear/seat/cage/fire bottle/harnesses/kill switch/brakes/wheels (2 sets) and tires for a total of $3500.  Save yourself $15,000 and have more fun driving it.  It's already run both Lemons and Chump.  Total costs for entry fees/transponder rental/licenses/race gas would be about $1700  hahaha

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

20 grand sounds about right.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

I don't know how realistic you want to be but I have a set of 16" C4 Corvette wheels I picked up for like $150 or less with tires.  The tires have tread but they are old.

I see plenty of cheap Corvette wheels but I don't know about 19s.  Personally, I would stay away from 19s sine they don't have a great of a tire selection as 17s and 18s.

We have a panoramic mirror, winks mirrors and rear view mirrors.  Our roof-line makes it hard to see out the back window.  On top of that, I had a driver stick on additional convex mirrors on the outside mirrors so we had a total of 7 mirrors.  Still hard to see what's going on sometimes.

We all have our own safety gear and that starts at about $500 each.

I picked up a transponder on eBay for a good deal.

Regarding rebuilding brake components, it is a good way to save money.  On the second car we run, they already had to replace their front calipers.  So if you buy lifetime warranty parts, you only have to buy them once. 

Technically, many rebuild kits from O'Reilly's and Autozone come with a lifetime warranty too but you have to keep doing it.  In their case the pistons got screwed so they would not have been rebuildable anyway.

Point is you may save money up front but it can cost you more overall.

Good brakes seem to outlast crappy ones.  We have always run race pads and we blew through a set on each car on the Saturday session at Eagles Canyon.

We have weld-on steering wheel disconnects which are pretty cheap.  You can get one of those a 3 spoke wheel for around $100.

We don't have fire systems, just extinguishers but it's not a bad idea.

The reality is, racing is expensive.  Even on the crap can level.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Mulry wrote:

If you get the quick clips on the helmets, you can all share one HANS device among all your drivers without much (if any) compromise on your pit stop/driver change times.

You can use a karting transponder (AMB TranX 160) and save about a hundred bucks. Those are the ones that the Lemons org uses as their rental transponders.

A $20 fire bottle will suffice.

I don't know much about Jag brakes, but I'd bet that you can rebuild your calipers a lot cheaper than buying some.

Thanks for the info.. I'll adjust the Budget accordingly. I will use a cheap bottle because I have an old expired system as backup.. Never used but still expired..
  The one thing is brakes.. since they are open I'm tempted to use real racing calipers.  That gets some really fantastic pad options..  Really durable pads that still have fantastic stopping ability..

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

In the last calendar year:

Nelson Ledges, 1 car 6 people
Gingerman Spring, 2 cars, 8 people
Summit Point, 2 cars 8 people
Gingerman Fall, 2 cars 8 people
Autobahn, 1 car 4 people

Total dollar amount just shy of $20,000.00

That includes all 3 cars built, lodging, fuel (race day and travel), food, tolls, bribes, and used safety gear, various spare parts (engines included), turbo setup for SBC, 4 VW engines and extra 71 beetle.
Now that we kind of know what we are doing, the costs involved will go down considerably, have 2 cars to build, all safety equipment is purchased except roll cage tubing, and both cars are complete (some assembly required). And by taking good parts off our retired/wrecked racers, we save more $$$. We hope to do the same amount of races this year at half the expense. wink

It Ain't My Fault

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

TeamDFL wrote:
OMGuar wrote:

$ 879      Roll Cage  (the cost of a bolt in cage, Actually I'll build my own.

Add another $400 for more tubing after your drag race cage fails tech.

Can't read?

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Jer wrote:

I'll sell you a running, already built Miata ready for action (turn-key) for $500 plus $3000 in car safety gear/seat/cage/fire bottle/harnesses/kill switch/brakes/wheels (2 sets) and tires for a total of $3500.  Save yourself $15,000 and have more fun driving it.  It's already run both Lemons and Chump.  Total costs for entry fees/transponder rental/licenses/race gas would be about $1700  hahaha

Cheaper still would be to sign up on an already operating team. Good teams seem to have seats for about $1000 an event or less.

12

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Usually $600-800. 

I'm just sayin you're spendin crazy money to prep and run that Jag.  Good luck with it and have a lot of fun, because its your money.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

VKZ24 wrote:

Do you have any tall drivers?  Take my advice and ditch the wink mirror.  It gets in the damn way.  We ditched ours for a one piece (14") panoramic one that works much better and doesn't get in my sight line.  The cost is approx the same.

We too have a wink and can't see shit out of our Z.  It blocks the view out the front and doesn't offer good rear visibility either.  We will be switching to a panoramic for 2011.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/editpicture.php … 2559430584

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:

$1600        8 wheels (used Corvette)
  $3985        8 mounted/balanced new tires325x30x19

I don't know about you, but this is WAY down on the cost/benefit curve.  Running $500 tires in a crapcan race is a good way to make sure you don't have any teammates.  I was actually thankful when I scrapped our crown vic because it meant no more $600 sets of tires (that's $600 for four tires).

You're also about 300% over on race gas.  We typically budget $300 for a 2-day event, and $450 or so for a 24-hour event.  I'm coming up with $6/per gallon gas using your numbers.  If your motor actually needs $6 per gallon gas, you probably are cheating.  Also, your 4mpg number is low.  You'll average around 7 to 8.

To offest all that, your $1000 in unexpected costs is low.  Crapcans have a bad habit of actually reaching into your pocket and removing cash when you aren't looking.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:

The one thing is brakes.. since they are open I'm tempted to use real racing calipers.  That gets some really fantastic pad options..  Really durable pads that still have fantastic stopping ability..

I'm not sure if you still plan on running Chump, but if so, you will be over their brake and wheel allowances.  I'd stick with smaller wheels, tires, and brakes.  Heck, it's a Jag so the brakes will have plenty of cooling time while you make electrical repairs in the pits.  tongue

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/editpicture.php … 2559430584

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Troy wrote:

I don't know how realistic you want to be but I have a set of 16" C4 Corvette wheels I picked up for like $150 or less with tires.  The tires have tread but they are old.

I see plenty of cheap Corvette wheels but I don't know about 19s.  Personally, I would stay away from 19s sine they don't have a great of a tire selection as 17s and 18s.

We have a panoramic mirror, winks mirrors and rear view mirrors.  Our roof-line makes it hard to see out the back window.  On top of that, I had a driver stick on additional convex mirrors on the outside mirrors so we had a total of 7 mirrors.  Still hard to see what's going on sometimes.

We all have our own safety gear and that starts at about $500 each.

I picked up a transponder on eBay for a good deal.

Regarding rebuilding brake components, it is a good way to save money.  On the second car we run, they already had to replace their front calipers.  So if you buy lifetime warranty parts, you only have to buy them once. 

Technically, many rebuild kits from O'Reilly's and Autozone come with a lifetime warranty too but you have to keep doing it.  In their case the pistons got screwed so they would not have been rebuildable anyway.

Point is you may save money up front but it can cost you more overall.

Good brakes seem to outlast crappy ones.  We have always run race pads and we blew through a set on each car on the Saturday session at Eagles Canyon.

We have weld-on steering wheel disconnects which are pretty cheap.  You can get one of those a 3 spoke wheel for around $100.

We don't have fire systems, just extinguishers but it's not a bad idea.

The reality is, racing is expensive.  Even on the crap can level.

Good points all!
Yes I will watch for good deals on used stuff and lower costs accordingly
  As for wheels the reasons for the selection of the 19's is because these were 3 piece wheels with mag centers.. we're talking ubber light.. 4 pounds lighter than the stock 15 inch wheel tire combination.   
  I wanted 16's and was willing to use used tires.  but was told these 19's were what we'd use. That and new rubber for each event. The real money behind all of this seems eager to take every advantage..
  To run with Chump Car  there is a limit on the cost of brake calipers or the Jaguar  would have those 6 piston NASCAR calipers..
Visability to the rear won't be a problem.. Might not even use a wink mirror.  Just a modest sized center mirror/:
I've used those cheaper quick disconnects for the steering wheel.. If they come off quickly they are too loose. The hub selected is really tight and really fast..

17 (edited by BoB 2010-11-16 01:45 PM)

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Haven't read the chump car rules in a while but if I remember right wheel and brakes can not cost more than twice the amount of oem for each component (so you can't save on rotors and calibers to get nicer pads).  Of course saying that when I priced the nicest alloy rims from gm for my car it came out to $375 per wheel.  So my wheel budget would end up being $750 per wheel for chump.  Of course on the brake side I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend on pads but I would probably be pretty restricted.

You also have to look at people assuming you are cheating.  While you may not be most people will wonder why you paid 4 times as much prepping your car as the average team.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Jeff G 78 wrote:
OMGuar wrote:

The one thing is brakes.. since they are open I'm tempted to use real racing calipers.  That gets some really fantastic pad options..  Really durable pads that still have fantastic stopping ability..

I'm not sure if you still plan on running Chump, but if so, you will be over their brake and wheel allowances.  I'd stick with smaller wheels, tires, and brakes.  Heck, it's a Jag so the brakes will have plenty of cooling time while you make electrical repairs in the pits.  tongue

Have you priced Jagaur OEM brake parts? the rule is 2X OEM prices..
  Yes if I use the 6 piston NASCAR calipers I'd be a little over but the rotors would make up for it.. I won't push it, since I honestly don't believe we'll need it. Used Wheels are $200 each which won't buy you new rims from Jaguar..
Yeh,  Reliability is what I'm sure will kill any chance we have. 
  I'll bring 2 spare complete engines and transmissions  Plus one assembeled rear end.. spare pair of front uprights.  already assembled since it's faster to swap out the whole thing than to attempt to seperate them..
That plus a couple of each electrical componant..  Tempted to do modern water tite connections and Pip pins on everything..
'

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

One note on wheels/tires/brakes. It is certainly true that in the context of the $500 budget, they are "free." But it is also most assuredly true that a team that goes out and puts super-fancy new Wilwood or APRacing calipers (for example) and magnesium wheels on their ride is also going to get sweated harder at BS than a team that's running rebuilt stock calipers, new slotted discs, and less-expensive aftermarket wheels (or stock wheels). And the logic is solid: it stands to reason that a team that is willing to pump nearly $7,000 into their brake system is probably willing to invest some off-the-books cheaty into the engine and other go-fast parts.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

20 (edited by Jer 2010-11-16 02:45 PM)

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

DaveH wrote:

Running $500 tires in a crapcan race is a good way to make sure you don't have any teammates.  I was actually thankful when I scrapped our crown vic because it meant no more $600 sets of tires (that's $600 for four tires).

This is one reason I'm not excited to rebuild the Craptation.  To put proper brakes on it means going to 17s and the tire costs are outrageous.  It might make more sense to part out that piece of shit and drive less aggravating and less costly cars. 

OM, you might want to rethink it all too unless your pockets are a lot deeper than the average crapcan racer.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

BoB wrote:

Haven't read the chump car rules in a while but if I remember right wheel and brakes can not cost more than twice the amount of oem for each component (so you can't save on rotors and calibers to get nicer pads).  Of course saying that when I priced the nicest alloy rims from gm for my car it came out to $375 per wheel.  So my wheel budget would end up being $750 per wheel for chump.  Of course on the brake side I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend on pads but I would probably be pretty restricted.

You also have to look at people assuming you are cheating.  While you may not be most people will wonder why you paid 4 times as much prepping your car as the average team.

4 times? please remember the handicap of lousy gas mileage Plus I'm using  stuff that I see on most cars.. Now granted I haven't started shopping used (and I will, looking for deals)  But if we have what others have I don't see where the claim of cheating will be..
Chump  Rules say 2x times OEM parts brake.. There doesn't seem to be a limit on Lemons
I'm waiting for the local dealer to give me a quote but aftermarket calipers are $508.87 each (plus shipping)   Thus my allowance would be $1017.74 per caliper! That's close to state of art 6 piston NASCAR caliper prices..
  Racing calipers are cheaper than stock! by hundreds of dollars!  (and they are a direct Bolt on for the Jaguar ) there is a similar deal on rotors..
Bottom line?  I'm sure there is money yet to be saved here shopping for used stuff.  and there is an extra grand for what if stuff.    We might wind up buying a good used motor home rather than simply renting.  If we have a new enough one with room to store spare engines etc.  maybe we'd save the cost of the pick-up.. There are plenty of over the road trucks out there at affordable prices if an affordable  race car trailer could also be found.. (don't know where we'd keep it though)

22

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Jer wrote:
DaveH wrote:

Running $500 tires in a crapcan race is a good way to make sure you don't have any teammates.  I was actually thankful when I scrapped our crown vic because it meant no more $600 sets of tires (that's $600 for four tires).

This is one reason I'm not excited to rebuild the Craptation.  To put proper brakes on it means going to 17s and the tire costs are outrageous.  It might make more sense to part out that piece of shit and drive less aggravating and costly cars. 

OM, you might want to rethink it all too unless your pockets are a lot deeper than the average crapcan racer.

What brakes are you looking at for the craptation?  The A-body and x-body share enough components that I think brakes are swappable.  Ours had the JA2 package which lasted pretty well at Joliet at least (first race so not sure if that was an extremely easy on the brakes track)  and will fit under 14" wheels. They are 5x115 so you have plenty of wheel options for 15 and up. If your lucky you can find a pontiac 6000 ste and you can get 4 wheel disc brakes.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

23

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:
BoB wrote:

Haven't read the chump car rules in a while but if I remember right wheel and brakes can not cost more than twice the amount of oem for each component (so you can't save on rotors and calibers to get nicer pads).  Of course saying that when I priced the nicest alloy rims from gm for my car it came out to $375 per wheel.  So my wheel budget would end up being $750 per wheel for chump.  Of course on the brake side I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend on pads but I would probably be pretty restricted.

You also have to look at people assuming you are cheating.  While you may not be most people will wonder why you paid 4 times as much prepping your car as the average team.

4 times? please remember the handicap of lousy gas mileage Plus I'm using  stuff that I see on most cars.. Now granted I haven't started shopping used (and I will, looking for deals)  But if we have what others have I don't see where the claim of cheating will be..
Chump  Rules say 2x times OEM parts brake.. There doesn't seem to be a limit on Lemons
I'm waiting for the local dealer to give me a quote but aftermarket calipers are $508.87 each (plus shipping)   Thus my allowance would be $1017.74 per caliper! That's close to state of art 6 piston NASCAR caliper prices..
  Racing calipers are cheaper than stock! by hundreds of dollars!  (and they are a direct Bolt on for the Jaguar ) there is a similar deal on rotors..
Bottom line?  I'm sure there is money yet to be saved here shopping for used stuff.  and there is an extra grand for what if stuff.    We might wind up buying a good used motor home rather than simply renting.  If we have a new enough one with room to store spare engines etc.  maybe we'd save the cost of the pick-up.. There are plenty of over the road trucks out there at affordable prices if an affordable  race car trailer could also be found.. (don't know where we'd keep it though)

Not saying you are going to cheat but reality and perception are often not the same thing, and sometimes its not worth the fight to make people believe the truth.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Mulry wrote:

One note on wheels/tires/brakes. It is certainly true that in the context of the $500 budget, they are "free." But it is also most assuredly true that a team that goes out and puts super-fancy new Wilwood or APRacing calipers (for example) and magnesium wheels on their ride is also going to get sweated harder at BS than a team that's running rebuilt stock calipers, new slotted discs, and less-expensive aftermarket wheels (or stock wheels). And the logic is solid: it stands to reason that a team that is willing to pump nearly $7,000 into their brake system is probably willing to invest some off-the-books cheaty into the engine and other go-fast parts.

Yeh I worried about that too.. (Sweating out the BS inspection) First you forget the lousy fuel milage handicap.. In a 24 hour race you'll pit  what 11 times?  That thirsty Jag will pit 36 times! say 5 minutes per pit,  that's 3 hours in the pits getting gas!
  However if no cheating is going on, I don't see where I have to fear something.. I  suspect if I don't touch the engines other than clean them nobody will worry about cheating.. You can easily tell if a head has been off recently) a glance at the suspension will clearly show it to be stock.. (other than cut springs)   
  The stock brakes are hundreds of dollars more expensive than racing  brakes.  So if affordability is the issue then Wilwood is the answer.
   Wheels?  well I was willing (happy even) to use 16 inch Corvette rims with used tires but he found a better deal. Far as I can tell, if it's not illegal deals are not only allowed but encouraged..   
   By the way,   You did read where there are 2 complete sets of wheels and tires involved didn't you?  Thus it's not as much as you quoted..

25

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

BoB wrote:
Jer wrote:
DaveH wrote:

Running $500 tires in a crapcan race is a good way to make sure you don't have any teammates.  I was actually thankful when I scrapped our crown vic because it meant no more $600 sets of tires (that's $600 for four tires).

This is one reason I'm not excited to rebuild the Craptation.  To put proper brakes on it means going to 17s and the tire costs are outrageous.  It might make more sense to part out that piece of shit and drive less aggravating and costly cars. 

OM, you might want to rethink it all too unless your pockets are a lot deeper than the average crapcan racer.

What brakes are you looking at for the craptation?  The A-body and x-body share enough components that I think brakes are swappable.  Ours had the JA2 package which lasted pretty well at Joliet at least (first race so not sure if that was an extremely easy on the brakes track)  and will fit under 14" wheels. They are 5x115 so you have plenty of wheel options for 15 and up. If your lucky you can find a pontiac 6000 ste and you can get 4 wheel disc brakes.

The wheels are 5 X 100, which is pretty limiting. 

We are looking at duel piston calipers,  We went through so much pad last time it was sickening, we could not slow the car down.  But part of that was making the car faster so we will need more brakes than what you might be thinking.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)