• From: Kansas City
  • Registered: 2010-02-10
  • Posts: 263

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:

Have you priced Jagaur OEM brake parts? the rule is 2X OEM prices..

Front caliper $90
Front rotor $50
So 2X that puts Wilwoods out of reach
And the 2X rule applies to the Chumpcar rules but you seem to keep confusing the two.

OMGuar wrote:

Tempted to do modern water tite connections and Pip pins on everything..

Of course you are but if I were you I'd worry more about cage design and the treadwear rating of the drag radials you plan to run.

Greg
Team Skid Steer
Bullitt Bobcat 2.0
  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

BoB wrote:
OMGuar wrote:
BoB wrote:

Haven't read the chump car rules in a while but if I remember right wheel and brakes can not cost more than twice the amount of oem for each component (so you can't save on rotors and calibers to get nicer pads).  Of course saying that when I priced the nicest alloy rims from gm for my car it came out to $375 per wheel.  So my wheel budget would end up being $750 per wheel for chump.  Of course on the brake side I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend on pads but I would probably be pretty restricted.

You also have to look at people assuming you are cheating.  While you may not be most people will wonder why you paid 4 times as much prepping your car as the average team.

4 times? please remember the handicap of lousy gas mileage Plus I'm using  stuff that I see on most cars.. Now granted I haven't started shopping used (and I will, looking for deals)  But if we have what others have I don't see where the claim of cheating will be..
Chump  Rules say 2x times OEM parts brake.. There doesn't seem to be a limit on Lemons
I'm waiting for the local dealer to give me a quote but aftermarket calipers are $508.87 each (plus shipping)   Thus my allowance would be $1017.74 per caliper! That's close to state of art 6 piston NASCAR caliper prices..
  Racing calipers are cheaper than stock! by hundreds of dollars!  (and they are a direct Bolt on for the Jaguar ) there is a similar deal on rotors..
Bottom line?  I'm sure there is money yet to be saved here shopping for used stuff.  and there is an extra grand for what if stuff.    We might wind up buying a good used motor home rather than simply renting.  If we have a new enough one with room to store spare engines etc.  maybe we'd save the cost of the pick-up.. There are plenty of over the road trucks out there at affordable prices if an affordable  race car trailer could also be found.. (don't know where we'd keep it though)

Not saying you are going to cheat but reality and perception are often not the same thing, and sometimes its not worth the fight to make people believe the truth.

If they assign penalties based on perception, It wouldn't matter.. That thirsty Jag will require something like 36 pit stops in a 24 hour race.. (You'll stop 11-12 times? )    3 times as much time in the pits.  Can't make up that differance no matter how fast the car could be..
  Besides that it's a heavy, old, car with reliability issues!
   You think cheaper wheels and brakes would make up for lousy fuel mileage, old, heavy, and known lack of reliability?   hmm

  • From: Oakland CA
  • Registered: 2010-06-16
  • Posts: 70

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar,

I think that you should do everything that you listed in the first post and more.  You could be the first Jag with BS laps.  I'd love to see what a "cheater" Jag would look like.

29 Reply by BoB

  • BoB
  • BoB
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Elmhurst, IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 4,206

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Jer wrote:
BoB wrote:
Jer wrote:

This is one reason I'm not excited to rebuild the Craptation.  To put proper brakes on it means going to 17s and the tire costs are outrageous.  It might make more sense to part out that piece of shit and drive less aggravating and costly cars. 

OM, you might want to rethink it all too unless your pockets are a lot deeper than the average crapcan racer.

What brakes are you looking at for the craptation?  The A-body and x-body share enough components that I think brakes are swappable.  Ours had the JA2 package which lasted pretty well at Joliet at least (first race so not sure if that was an extremely easy on the brakes track)  and will fit under 14" wheels. They are 5x115 so you have plenty of wheel options for 15 and up. If your lucky you can find a pontiac 6000 ste and you can get 4 wheel disc brakes.

The wheels are 5 X 100, which is pretty limiting. 

We are looking at duel piston calipers,  We went through so much pad last time it was sickening, we could not slow the car down.  But part of that was making the car faster so we will need more brakes than what you might be thinking.

Well the hubs should bolt right on which would put you up to 5x115 size wheels and might open you up to some other brake component options.  And I'm not sure what pads you were using but with the ja2's you can get porterfield r4 or the r4-s if you want to save on it.  The plus side is that there are so many a-bodys in the yards it shouldn't be to hard to find, and JA2 were standard for most years on the wagons.  Just an option to look at.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

BoB's Website

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

FraidyCaptain wrote:

OMGuar,

I think that you should do everything that you listed in the first post and more.  You could be the first Jag with BS laps.  I'd love to see what a "cheater" Jag would look like.

The purpose of BS laps is to discourage cheating..
well if discouragement really worked I wouldn't race  a Jag..
3 to 1 stops for gas?  (6 to 1 if I use E85)
34 years old?
Heavy?
Historic lack of reliability?


  So what do you consider is cheater? I mean I've seen everything I've listed on various cars at Lemons races.. I could buy a fuel cell and add that cost to the budget I suppose.. that adds another $1659 plus to the total..

  • Registered: 2010-02-14
  • Posts: 577

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

FraidyCaptain wrote:

OMGuar,

....  I'd love to see what a "cheater" Jag would look like.

big_smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9I7GWll … re=related

  • From: Oakland CA
  • Registered: 2010-06-16
  • Posts: 70

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:

...So what do you consider is cheater?...

A Jag with BS laps (let's say more than 5).

What I am saying is that with Jaguar's reputation at Lemons, any Jag with enough cheaty parts to get BS laps would have to be pretty much on the level of the 1985 TWR XJS that Doug I posted.

Despite being documented at $50 over-budget our XJ12 sailed (or should I say was pushed) right through BS because it suddenly refused to start at 11:00AM on Friday and didn't start again until 10:30AM on Saturday.  So is the life of a $500 racing Jaguar and I am interested in seeing if a $20,000 race prepped Jag is any more reliable than a $4,700 race prepped Jag.

33 Reply by Jer

  • Jer
  • Jer
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: West Chester, PA
  • Registered: 2009-05-04
  • Posts: 1,316

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

BoB wrote:

Well the hubs should bolt right on which would put you up to 5x115 size wheels and might open you up to some other brake component options.  And I'm not sure what pads you were using but with the ja2's you can get porterfield r4 or the r4-s if you want to save on it.  The plus side is that there are so many a-bodys in the yards it shouldn't be to hard to find, and JA2 were standard for most years on the wagons.  Just an option to look at.

Thanks for the tip!  We'll look into that.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Jer's Website

34 Reply by BoB

  • BoB
  • BoB
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Elmhurst, IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 4,206

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

oh and if you want more instructions the guys who helped with our car actually started supporting the x-body cars since I guess there isn't alot of support for them and the a-body's are based on them so they share lots of components.  You can poke around at a-body.net for some other ideas.  I thought there was a thread showing someone sticking a caddy v8 in a citation.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

BoB's Website

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Lemonious Monk wrote:
OMGuar wrote:

Have you priced Jagaur OEM brake parts? the rule is 2X OEM prices..

Front caliper $90
Front rotor $50
So 2X that puts Wilwoods out of reach
And the 2X rule applies to the Chumpcar rules but you seem to keep confusing the two.

OMGuar wrote:

Tempted to do modern water tite connections and Pip pins on everything..

Of course you are but if I were you I'd worry more about cage design and the treadwear rating of the drag radials you plan to run.

Didn't your mother ever teach you to play nice? 
  That or you simply have poor reading skills.
First I was asked if I would race chump car with them and answered that question!
   I also said there were no limits on Lemons Brakes..
  Your numbers aren't OEM prices because I called the local Jag dealer and they are NLS parts  I used XK's unlimited prices..
        Now I hate to keep pointing out your reading errors. but a 393/30/19 isn't a drag race size. 
and the issue of the roll cage was long ago resolved.  Last I saw it was still there for you to go reread it if you remain confused.

  • From: Kansas City
  • Registered: 2010-02-10
  • Posts: 263

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

I quoted Auto Zone prices but it's your cash, spend it as you see fit.

Greg
Team Skid Steer
Bullitt Bobcat 2.0
  • From: WPB Fl.
  • Registered: 2010-10-27
  • Posts: 1,571

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:

Please make any comments about the proposed budget.  add stuff if I've missed it, subtract stuff if it's just too high.
  $500.00    car.. (1976 Jaguar XJ-S V12) + 2 spare cars.
  $1700.       Drivers  safety gear (Lemons Basic)   (actually 2 at $425. 1@$9000 (FIA stuff with 2 helmets, 3 suits, etc.) and me $0
  $1780    Hans device 1 FIA, 1 sport and 2 neck braces..
  $ 409      Fire bottle
  $ 879      Roll Cage  (the cost of a bolt in cage, Actually I'll build my own. 
  $   34       Roll bar padding
  $ 399      Transponder
  $    27      wink mirror
  $    60        Kill switch
  $ 540        car seat
  $ 150        side mount brackets
  $   75         Seat adjuster
  $  248          Quick steering hub realease
  $1600        8 wheels (used Corvette)
  $3985        8 mounted/balanced new tires325x30x19
  $  368         brake rotors(4)
  $ 640         Calipers
  $ 746         brake pads 2 complete sets..
  $ 500         entry fee
  $ 400         drivers fee
  $ 200         license
  $ 300          Towing fuel Pick up (not part of budget) 1000 miles round trip
  $1300         Motor home rental  and fuel
  $2160         Race gas (for a 24 hour race) 4MPG race average
  $  500         meals.
  $1000         unexpected costs.
$20,000+                       Total

I am so very confused by you Mr.Guar
You boast that you have raced with the best of them back in the day with a shoe string budget but you are now obviously well off and cant resist the urge to WAY overspend attempting to Crap Can race.
Even if I started with the exact car you choose I could in no way imagine spending $10,000.
Simple things like purchasing a used transponder or using the original, non removable steering wheel seem to escape you, perhaps skipping the exotic tires and getting a hotel room rather then a RV... Forget it, you are going to be the spoiler whom finds a way to go from wealthy to broke CC racing... WAIT I get it, you are seeking a new type of award or ... ummm something.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!
  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

FraidyCaptain wrote:
OMGuar wrote:

...So what do you consider is cheater?...

A Jag with BS laps (let's say more than 5).

What I am saying is that with Jaguar's reputation at Lemons, any Jag with enough cheaty parts to get BS laps would have to be pretty much on the level of the 1985 TWR XJS that Doug I posted.

Despite being documented at $50 over-budget our XJ12 sailed (or should I say was pushed) right through BS because it suddenly refused to start at 11:00AM on Friday and didn't start again until 10:30AM on Saturday.  So is the life of a $500 racing Jaguar and I am interested in seeing if a $20,000 race prepped Jag is any more reliable than a $4,700 race prepped Jag.

That budget isn't the prep cost.  Eliminate the safety items and exempt items and the prep for our Jag would be $500.00
the rest is costs  food, gas, travel etc..
    What sort of fuel mileage did your V12 get?  I know it's a later HE with a taller final drive ratio and a OD 4 speed to our 3 speed. but I'd be surprised if it was over 6 MPG. 
  IF you richen up the fuel mixture to prevent head gasket issues  you might get what?  5MPG?

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Team Infinniti wrote:
OMGuar wrote:

Please make any comments about the proposed budget.  add stuff if I've missed it, subtract stuff if it's just too high.
  $500.00    car.. (1976 Jaguar XJ-S V12) + 2 spare cars.
  $1700.       Drivers  safety gear (Lemons Basic)   (actually 2 at $425. 1@$9000 (FIA stuff with 2 helmets, 3 suits, etc.) and me $0
  $1780    Hans device 1 FIA, 1 sport and 2 neck braces..
  $ 409      Fire bottle
  $ 879      Roll Cage  (the cost of a bolt in cage, Actually I'll build my own. 
  $   34       Roll bar padding
  $ 399      Transponder
  $    27      wink mirror
  $    60        Kill switch
  $ 540        car seat
  $ 150        side mount brackets
  $   75         Seat adjuster
  $  248          Quick steering hub realease
  $1600        8 wheels (used Corvette)
  $3985        8 mounted/balanced new tires325x30x19
  $  368         brake rotors(4)
  $ 640         Calipers
  $ 746         brake pads 2 complete sets..
  $ 500         entry fee
  $ 400         drivers fee
  $ 200         license
  $ 300          Towing fuel Pick up (not part of budget) 1000 miles round trip
  $1300         Motor home rental  and fuel
  $2160         Race gas (for a 24 hour race) 4MPG race average
  $  500         meals.
  $1000         unexpected costs.
$20,000+                       Total

I am so very confused by you Mr.Guar
You boast that you have raced with the best of them back in the day with a shoe string budget but you are now obviously well off and cant resist the urge to WAY overspend attempting to Crap Can race.
Even if I started with the exact car you choose I could in no way imagine spending $10,000.
Simple things like purchasing a used transponder or using the original, non removable steering wheel seem to escape you, perhaps skipping the exotic tires and getting a hotel room rather then a RV... Forget it, you are going to be the spoiler whom finds a way to go from wealthy to broke CC racing... WAIT I get it, you are seeking a new type of award or ... ummm something.

Maybe you run your team like the boss, take it or leave it.. Not me, There are 3 other people and I listen to what they want.   
   Go back and read my response to others..
At least on three seperate occasions I have said that I will shop for used stuff and save whatever is possible.. But at best that's a few hundred dollars.. .
  Second I tend to sleep in the back of cars or if I'm lucky a tent. I would never rent an RV. However three other people have decided that they want a RV at the track.   
  Exotic tires?  Again  Not my choice.. I was happy with 16 inch rims  and used tires..  Actually I have 4 10X15inch rims and thought they would be fine with 295/50/15 Tires at $105 each..
  As for nonremovable steering wheel?  Clearly you haven't seen the size or age of us.. maybe at 16 and 95 pounds you can climb out of that seat in the time required, I could when I was in my 20's thirty's 40's even in my 50's without a removeable steering wheel..  into my 60's I can't anymore.. I've got a guy who's large enough that he couldn't without a removable steering wheel and Well none of us are what anyone would call lyth.  So yeh a few bucks for sterring wheel is a worthwhile deal for us..
There are 2 awards I'd like to race for..
DLBF
Dead Last But Finished.
or the spear carrier award..
(finishing mid pack) 
Winning isn't an option..
Not since the car will need to stop about every 40 minutes or so to refuel.. (lousy gas mileage)  that's about 3 to 1 with everybody  else..
One final Point it's MGuar  not mr. Guar.
stands for MG  (the sportscar?)  and uar (the last 3 letters of Jaguar)  Both of which I collect and race.. I'm actually making a 1950 MGTD/ Jaguar   (MGuar)  MG body, Jaguar engine, trans front and rear suspension.. (did you know that an XK-E and a MGTD have the identical track?, 50 inches wide)

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Lemonious Monk wrote:

I quoted Auto Zone prices but it's your cash, spend it as you see fit.

Have you priced racing pads for Jaguars using the stock caliper? 
  They make them in England and by the time you get them here, pay shipping,&  import duty it's cheaper to use good stuff up front..
Remember  it's a really heavy car and it's pretty fast.    Disks glow red hot and will quickly melt cheap caliper seals..  Not to mention how fast all but the very best pads will disappear..
Since I don't relish the idea of spending time in pits pulling the front suspension apart to get the brake rotors off I'll spend a few hundred extra bucks on brakes that actually work and are legal..
  With Jaguar you're one of a few who race so parts get really horribly expensive when you use racing stuff those costs are shared with hundreds of thousands of race cars, local circle track, SCCA, hot rodders etc..
They are honestly cheaper than the other way!

  • Serj
  • Serj
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Cincinnati, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,601

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

OMGuar wrote:
Lemonious Monk wrote:

I quoted Auto Zone prices but it's your cash, spend it as you see fit.

Have you priced racing pads for Jaguars using the stock caliper? 
  They make them in England and by the time you get them here, pay shipping,&  import duty it's cheaper to use good stuff up front..

...or you could call up carbotech, raybestos, or porterfield, and get a set of race compound pads mated to your backplates for $200 a set, give or take.

  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 297

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Stop feeding the troll everyone.

Just another crappy BMW and moto-powered MR2: http://www.facebook.com/BlackIronRacing
Gnome money, Gnome problems. (RIP) http://www.facebook.com/MetroGnomeRacing
  • Troy
  • Troy
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,634

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

I think this budget is huge but it isn't my money.

All you guys going on about Chump 2x rule, it's based on new OEM as in the price at the dealer.

Did you know OEM wheels for a Miata are more than an E30? 

Either way, I wanna say you can spend about $2000 on a set of wheels for a Miata or E30 using the 2x rule.  So that kinda makes Oz wheels look cheap.

For my 240Z new wheels aren't even available from the dealer.

I called the dealer to price new brake parts for my car and it was around $2000-2500 for the hydraulics alone.  I am pretty sure I can save money using Brembos in that situation.

Have I done any of that? NO.

We run used rims, even 15" OEM ones.  Our brakes are various stock parts from other Nissans or Toyotas either bought online or from the local parts house.  We have run Porterfield and Raybestos pads from Porterfield.  (The Raybestos pads are a compound for some Camaro series.)

As others have suggested, I suggest calling Portefield for Jag pads too since they will make them for you right here in the US in about a week.

Regarding calipers, I've seen and heard about plenty of cars cooking calipers.  If you can easily enlarge the brakes, I'd got for it.  Like a more yachty model has bigger rotors and calipers so you put those on the lighter sibling.  In addition to that, duct the brakes and run good fluid.

There are probably times that racing components may be less expensive than 2x OEM dealer price.  While I think the 2x rule is kinda stupid and doen't actually stop someone from running Wilwoods and fancy wheels, I get the point.  Besides all that, we are in the Lemons forum not Chumps.

In the discussion about transportion, storage and accomodations I'd really like to have a big RV hauling a nice enclosed hauler.  I can't afford it.  I have managed to pick up an enclosed trailer which is like having a portable garage.  It's a lot easier to haul all the parts in, keeps things out of the weather, provides a storage place between races and selter during the races.  They don't usually come cheap but they are very nice to have.

I see lots of cheap 70s-80s RVs but I don't know how well they will pull a car hauler.  I occassionally see deals on late 80s to early 90s models in the $6grandish area. 

Personally, I picked up a cheap camper that I put in my truck, then I hook up the car and I go.  Unfortunately, I don't have a shower.

If you know you are going to do a lot of this you can use the money you would spend renting things toward buying stuff but it creates a larger initial investment.

As far as everone worrying about BS and cheating.  If they are only out to have a good time than they won't mind the BS laps.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z
  • From: DF-Dubya
  • Registered: 2009-08-19
  • Posts: 820

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

gielamonster wrote:

Stop feeding the troll everyone.

THANK YOU!

Summer's Eve Racing - '09 Yee-Haw; '10 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie, Yee-Haw; '11 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie (Winner, Class A!)
TARP Racing - '11 Yee-Haw, Heaps; '12 Gator-O-Rama (Winner, Class C ... Looking for a Class B Win to Complete the Trifecta!), Heaps; '13 NorDal Hooptie, Gator-O-Rama
  • From: San Diego, CA
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,640

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

gielamonster wrote:

Stop feeding the troll everyone.

No kidding. From what I've seen in several threads, he seems to love arguing over established rules, talking down to people who question him, and overall making a mountain out of the mole hill that is crap can racing.

But I'm not hating. If he wants to spend $20K on a twin turbo E85 V12 Jag, let him. I'd say that's impressive as hell, but I want to be at BS inspection to watch the hi-jinks unfold.

Cue lengthy response with weird indentations.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.
  • Registered: 2010-06-17
  • Posts: 105

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

My first time team built and raced our car for under $3000 total. That includes rented and borrowed safety gear, all fuel, and lodging for most of the team. This game can be "cheap" if you really try. Granted, our car did blow up right away, but there were a lot cars that did that regardless of budget.

Rednektified Racing - Team Captain
#101 Moby Slick
2010: Yee-Haw "Most horrible yank tank" (DNF)
  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
  • Registered: 2009-12-22
  • Posts: 3,251

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

T-Money645 wrote:

My first time team built and raced our car for under $3000 total. That includes rented and borrowed safety gear, all fuel, and lodging for most of the team. This game can be "cheap" if you really try. Granted, our car did blow up right away, but there were a lot cars that did that regardless of budget.

I think the point this guy's making is that he wants to do it as painlessly as possible.  He's an older person, with more than likely a larger amount of money to work with.

If he and his friends can afford it, I say go for it.

Just remermber that it's a claiming race and that 5000 Brembo package could look nice on Jay's small block powered project., not to mention the wheel/ tire package.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

48 Reply by crazymike (edited by crazymike 2010-11-18 09:25 AM)

  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

I'd put in my two cents, but that'd be half my budget - and makes me tell ya' I'm proud to know and work along side Spank... I think you're putting too much $$ resource in "New"
~check the www links for some of your items - you need to shop better :-)

for the Red Mini I sourced my:

Kirkey for $100 (local racing rag, a guy was upgrading his budget Kirkey for a new style)
Seat brackets for $15 (Pick'NPull)

steering hub for $30 http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1221

Kill switch $30 http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produc … RecID=4913

trans-x for $150 (online, killer deal, I'd say $300 is more realistic)

Fire system  $180-$400 - or go with a std bottle and steel strap for $45 http://www.livermoreperformance.com/saf … stems.html

wheels for $25ea (PnP, Craiglist, Yardsale)

Brakes $90 for fronts (Porterfield, direct, cash when I was in Costa Mesa - they do give cash racer discounts) http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/
~your rotors and stuff should come from PnP or the back of a jag shop... just use used and get 'em turned. They'll warp anyhow. Repair the calipers and like the rotors bring a spare set. Caliper repair is easy (unless the core is no good)

wink for $10 (and then didn't use it) (from a racer who hated it, now I know why)

tire mounting for (almost) free (I go early in the morning, with donuts or... and help, and have them do all my street cars. Sometimes I have to come back around closing)

Tires @$130ea (Direzza's) (Tire Rack, Discount tires, etc)

food @ $25/head (My girlfriend has organized a chow-line and does the Costco and loss-leader shopping at supermarkets. At $25/ea she makes enough to cover her expenses and get paid enough to buy Jay's expensive Tee's a book or two to read at the track, etc. She's now got 22head to cook for!)

Things you are missing:
Pit fire extinguisher 4a20bc or bigger is a good thing to have.
Budget for a less-than-lame theme


Things that are expensive:

Roll Cage (can't do w/o) (Evil Genius, but man I wish I had a tube bender and more time and skills - Spank gets this done quite well an I envy that a bunch)

Motorhome - I've got a v-dub van, my previous drivers slept in their LWB cars (Audi wagon, Lexus or in a tent on the trailer. One driver had one, but it was an antique and a liability on the way in - blew a tire, etc... I'm continuing in the VW and what my other drivers bring to the plate is their concern - but  I always bring the tent and air-mattress just in case. (If I weren't in CA I'd recommend a covered trailer and cots, Motorhome is way to chichi and expensive for this)
~this is a great thing to qualify a driver for the team - access to a covered trailer or a m-home.

Race gas - completely unnecessary.  Build for pump premium and bring whatever the track allows you to bring. If you are building for 100+ octane you probably won't finish anyhow.
~bringing your own means getting a couple of 20gallon cans and a pump, so there's an expense...

Driver safety - Hans if you got 'em, I can't afford - Each driver is responsible for their own - my drivers all came with suits, I had to lone a neck collar around and we had a spare suit for a medium build person to don for fire-bottle duty.
~I HIGHLY recommend the latter - it was a huge time-saver at pit-stops.

I honestly got my car for $250, the engine/trans came from Pnp for $185 on 1/2 price memorial days. Jay and Phil do not believe me 'cause I didn't save any receipts or take pictures - and most of the running gear (brakes, suspension) came from a car that'd been seriously rolled, that I owned, so value was unknown and unassigned (I got all the crap in that car b4 Lemons was a pipe-dream in their soup)

I'm keeping better track of the new car (the mini has gone too far to the NASA spec car to be Lemons) and have yet to break $2600 (--edit $3000, just got the disc brake upgrade for old V-dubs), including a $1600 roll cage - but that doesn't include safety and stuff like that I'm borrowing from the mini -- And I'll still probably get dinged in judging for bringing hammer to a knife fight.

Seeyouattrackside!!!

49 Reply by OMGuar (edited by OMGuar 2010-11-17 10:57 AM)

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

Troy wrote:

I think this budget is huge but it isn't my money.

All you guys going on about Chump 2x rule, it's based on new OEM as in the price at the dealer.

Did you know OEM wheels for a Miata are more than an E30? 

Either way, I wanna say you can spend about $2000 on a set of wheels for a Miata or E30 using the 2x rule.  So that kinda makes Oz wheels look cheap.

For my 240Z new wheels aren't even available from the dealer.

I called the dealer to price new brake parts for my car and it was around $2000-2500 for the hydraulics alone.  I am pretty sure I can save money using Brembos in that situation.

Have I done any of that? NO.

We run used rims, even 15" OEM ones.  Our brakes are various stock parts from other Nissans or Toyotas either bought online or from the local parts house.  We have run Porterfield and Raybestos pads from Porterfield.  (The Raybestos pads are a compound for some Camaro series.)

As others have suggested, I suggest calling Portefield for Jag pads too since they will make them for you right here in the US in about a week.

Regarding calipers, I've seen and heard about plenty of cars cooking calipers.  If you can easily enlarge the brakes, I'd got for it.  Like a more yachty model has bigger rotors and calipers so you put those on the lighter sibling.  In addition to that, duct the brakes and run good fluid.

There are probably times that racing components may be less expensive than 2x OEM dealer price.  While I think the 2x rule is kinda stupid and doen't actually stop someone from running Wilwoods and fancy wheels, I get the point.  Besides all that, we are in the Lemons forum not Chumps.

In the discussion about transportion, storage and accomodations I'd really like to have a big RV hauling a nice enclosed hauler.  I can't afford it.  I have managed to pick up an enclosed trailer which is like having a portable garage.  It's a lot easier to haul all the parts in, keeps things out of the weather, provides a storage place between races and selter during the races.  They don't usually come cheap but they are very nice to have.

I see lots of cheap 70s-80s RVs but I don't know how well they will pull a car hauler.  I occassionally see deals on late 80s to early 90s models in the $6grandish area. 

Personally, I picked up a cheap camper that I put in my truck, then I hook up the car and I go.  Unfortunately, I don't have a shower.

If you know you are going to do a lot of this you can use the money you would spend renting things toward buying stuff but it creates a larger initial investment.

As far as everone worrying about BS and cheating.  If they are only out to have a good time than they won't mind the BS laps.

Well said Troy.
With regard BS laps.. I might try for the record!
There is no chance that old thirsty Jag will win  so I may as well do something noteworthy!  First I'll show up with a nice shiney car as neat as I can make it.. Then I'll simply dare the judges to double the penalty laps and then double dare them.. I'll figure out a way to politely insult them and get even more and ask that they get doubled.
  Nah!  this is all about fun.. Not winning..  In fact I'd be tempted to see if I can enter Nolio Contendo.  Ah except then I wouldn't get any penalty laps and I won't be able to set the record! Ah well, maybe I can bribe the judges into giving me penalty laps anyway!
  I still want to run ethanol.. and a ghetto charger just seems like something fun to do..
I've  got to be careful though.. as crowded as the track is likely to be if the car is too fast it simply won't fit in.. Besides it would be more  fun to find someone to dice with than just run around passing people..  Guess I'll need to test it first.. See if a Turbo charged jag is as fast as I imagine..
  As for brakes they were the state of art 34 years ago..   Now it's sorta like running drums brakes at Daytona.. I expect to be able to pick up some decent used racing stuff for about $100 a corner..  Can't budget it that way because it might not happen..
Rims? They are used take offs from Corvettes.. I wanted smaller ones because the tires could be found used  but they didn't want to race on used tires..
   Like I said I'm not the only one going racing.. If I were I'd likely sleep in the back of a SUV etc.. Plus I wouldn't haul spare engines etc.. If something happened I'd simply go home..  I've done my share of engine swaps at the race track and when I was younger it wasn't a big deal.. now it's gets hard to get back up off the ground at my age..
  It's the 24 hour deal that makes the demand.  Go racing for a couple of hours and have a mechanical problem.. you've got hours to fix it and still go out and get track time.  Typical event with only  20 minutes to race?  it's a no brainer.. pack up and go home!
  Since others will be driving it makes sense to listen to what they want to do.. it's their money!
Along that same line,  I'll buy swap meet craigslist stuff whereever I find it.. However you can't budget that way!
I've done the race car Hauler route and while they are nice at the race track much of the year they are a pain to store. If it's not reasonably new just sitting will cause probelems and then you've just added to your work load..   Fix the race car and then work on the hauler ugh! When's the fun begin?

50 Reply by OMGuar (edited by OMGuar 2010-11-17 10:26 AM)

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: We're meeting this weekend to discuss next years racing budget..

crazymike wrote:

I'd put in my two cents, but that'd be half my budget - and makes me tell ya' I'm proud to know and work along side Spank... I think you're putting too much $$ resource in "New"
~check the www links for some of your items - you need to shop better :-)

for the Red Mini I sourced my:

Kirkey for $100 (local racing rag, a guy was upgrading his budget Kirkey for a new style)
Seat brackets for $15 (Pick'NPull)

steering hub for $30 http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1221

Kill switch $30 http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produc … RecID=4913

trans-x for $150 (online, killer deal, I'd say $300 is more realistic)

Fire system  $180-$400 - or go with a std bottle and steel strap for $45 http://www.livermoreperformance.com/saf … stems.html

wheels for $25ea (PnP, Craiglist, Yardsale)

Brakes $90 for fronts (Porterfield, direct, cash when I was in Costa Mesa - they do give cash racer discounts) http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/
~your rotors and stuff should come from PnP or the back of a jag shop... just use used and get 'em turned. They'll warp anyhow. Repair the calipers and like the rotors bring a spare set. Caliper repair is easy (unless the core is no good)

wink for $10 (and then didn't use it) (from a racer who hated it, now I know why)

tire mounting for (almost) free (I go early in the morning, with donuts or... and help, and have them do all my street cars. Sometimes I have to come back around closing)

Tires @$130ea (Direzza's) (Tire Rack, Discount tires, etc)

food @ $25/head (My girlfriend has organized a chow-line and does the Costco and loss-leader shopping at supermarkets. At $25/ea she makes enough to cover her expenses and get paid enough to buy Jay's expensive Tee's a book or two to read at the track, etc. She's now got 22head to cook for!)

Things you are missing:
Pit fire extinguisher 4a20bc or bigger is a good thing to have.
Budget for a less-than-lame theme


Things that are expensive:

Roll Cage (can't do w/o) (Evil Genius, but man I wish I had a tube bender and more time and skills - Spank gets this done quite well an I envy that a bunch)

Motorhome - I've got a v-dub van, my previous drivers slept in their LWB cars (Audi wagon, Lexus or in a tent on the trailer. One driver had one, but it was an antique and a liability on the way in - blew a tire, etc... I'm continuing in the VW and what my other drivers bring to the plate is their concern - but  I always bring the tent and air-mattress just in case. (If I weren't in CA I'd recommend a covered trailer and cots, Motorhome is way to chichi and expensive for this)
~this is a great thing to qualify a driver for the team - access to a covered trailer or a m-home.

Race gas - completely unnecessary.  Build for pump premium and bring whatever the track allows you to bring. If you are building for 100+ octane you probably won't finish anyhow.
~bringing your own means getting a couple of 20gallon cans and a pump, so there's an expense...

Driver safety - Hans if you got 'em, I can't afford - Each driver is responsible for their own - my drivers all came with suits, I had to lone a neck collar around and we had a spare suit for a medium build person to don for fire-bottle duty.
~I HIGHLY recommend the latter - it was a huge time-saver at pit-stops.

I honestly got my car for $250, the engine/trans came from Pnp for $185 on 1/2 price memorial days. Jay and Phil do not believe me 'cause I didn't save any receipts or take pictures - and most of the running gear (brakes, suspension) came from a car that'd been seriously rolled, that I owned, so value was unknown and unassigned (I got all the crap in that car b4 Lemons was a pipe-dream in their soup)

I'm keeping better track of the new car (the mini has gone too far to the NASA spec car to be Lemons) and have yet to break $2600, including a $1600 roll cage - but that doesn't include safety and stuff like that I'm borrowing from the mini -- And I'll still probably get dinged in judging for bringing hammer to a knife fight.

Seeyouattrackside!!!

I'm as cheap as you are maybe cheaper..
I got my car (and 2 others free!) I figure it will cost me about that in misc. stuff to clean and polish it up, make it as nice as possible..
As I've written many times before I will find deals and take advantage of them..
They have a stock car racing swap meet here every febuary.  Fantastic deals on stuff that was used one time and not found to be correct or better.. That or they overspent and need money to pay rent etc..
Likely that's where I'll pick up the brakes seat and some other stuff .. In all probability have about $100 a corner for Wilwood or JFZ Calipers ,   Can't budget that way because it might not happen..
As heavy as the Jag is and as fast as it is  stock brakes  will likely melt on me and require replacement mid race..  cheaper and simpler to use racing stuff..
Great chance for a decent seat  but it's got to be a big one.. I'm OK but one of our drivers really bends the scale.
  Not using race gas! Track gas costs more than buying it at a discount place and hauling it in..
Don't need  race gas .. 7.8 -1 compression ratio is stock.. 
Luckily there are web sites that show gas prices and  If there are cheap ones near the track I won't have to lugg a lot of gas around..
Now we might want to use ethanol..
  It's cheap!  about a buck a Gallon instead of three.. However that's at the plant price (if you got a friend and denature it right in front of them)  Otherwise the feds will get you for booze tax which is much worse  that's why a quart of Jack Daniels is so expensive when the alcohol in it is so cheap. . 
  You do know that any gas you use on the race track is exempt from highway taxes.. ? You can either avoid paying it as I intend to or apply for a refund from the state and federal government.. 
So the gas costs? that's as cheap as I can find!
  You're right I did miss the refueling cans,, thanks!  And a fire distinguisher.:)=) Do have a couple of spare drivers suits.. (I er outgrew)
Don't expect to have a cook.. proabably fast food followed with a nice post race dinner someplace..   
As for less than lame theme,  I'll make the coffin with scrap wood I have around. (still come out looking fantastic.. The advantage of buying direct from a sawmill)    I already have some of the decals.  MY sister-in-law does that sort of work so she'll do the rest  probably free, unless I'd get dinged for that, ah what the heck.. no chance of winning anyway  not with as thirsty as the big old Jag is gonna be.. I wonder what the record for penalty laps is?  Wanna bet I can beat it?  See it doesn't matter if you know you can't win.... 
So if you follow me I'm just as cheap as you are.. maybe cheaper!
  Hope to have fun!