• From: Life's great in 21158
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 3,361

Topic: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Hey...not to tip our hand TOO much but...we may be taking a slightly different tack for whatever race we decide to enter next.  I have a '79 300D sitting in my yard that I conveniently bought for...$500!  The biggest obstacle, in my experience, to building a Lemons car is the cage.  After we put a cage in our Amazon, we swore we'd never cage another car and use that car forever.  Unfortunately, "forever" seems to be a bit shorter of a period of time than we'd originally thought.  So now we're eyeing up this 300D.

Does anyone have experience putting a cage in a W123 body Mercedes Benz?  Any tricks, hints, suggestions?  Is there a pre-made kit for it, or is it the sort of deal where you have to buy a "universal" kit and DIY, or shell out bux to a race shop for them to fab?  I'm an experienced welder, and I have a MIG gas setup, so I'm not afraid to weld in my own, just trying to see what else exists out there before I dive in. 

Thanks!

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

mechimike's Website

  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
  • Registered: 2009-11-12
  • Posts: 2,144

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Find someone in your area who regularly builds NASA or SCCA cages. Pay them to plan your cage, measure, and bend your tubing. You do the rest. That's pretty much what we did with our Jag (except we also hired a welder) and the cage turned out pretty nice.

  • From: New Orleans, LA
  • Registered: 2009-05-16
  • Posts: 635

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

mechimike wrote:

Hey...not to tip our hand TOO much but...we may be taking a slightly different tack for whatever race we decide to enter next.  I have a '79 300D sitting in my yard that I conveniently bought for...$500!  The biggest obstacle, in my experience, to building a Lemons car is the cage.  After we put a cage in our Amazon, we swore we'd never cage another car and use that car forever.  Unfortunately, "forever" seems to be a bit shorter of a period of time than we'd originally thought.  So now we're eyeing up this 300D.

Does anyone have experience putting a cage in a W123 body Mercedes Benz?  Any tricks, hints, suggestions?  Is there a pre-made kit for it, or is it the sort of deal where you have to buy a "universal" kit and DIY, or shell out bux to a race shop for them to fab?  I'm an experienced welder, and I have a MIG gas setup, so I'm not afraid to weld in my own, just trying to see what else exists out there before I dive in. 

Thanks!

Once you make progress, share your findings. I've got two 300D's in my basement that need a future...

-=Tom

-=HFC Tom
  • From: Craphole, NJ
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 517

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Caging a wagon is no different than any other 2 or 4 door car.  A good cage builder will put the main hoop in the proper place relative to the driver seat rather than where it "looks right".

http://www.ducttapemotorsports.com/
http://www.teamdfl.com
"I can see it now, a pile of nickels and all the glory of being a real race car driver."
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  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

We put two cages in 114 cars here, 123s aren't that different.    Somewhere in in the forums there is a link to pics of the cages....     

    Where are you?

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  • Serj
  • Serj
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  • From: Cincinnati, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,601

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

mechmike is an east-coaster. i don't remeber exactly i just remember "tuna chuckers" tongue

7 Reply by johnhef (edited by johnhef 2011-01-05 03:10 PM)

  • From: Frederick, MD
  • Registered: 2011-01-03
  • Posts: 119

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Mike, give a shout if you need any help with the car.  I've been working on 123's longer then I care to remember smile  Tell me you're at least planning an engine swap, even if just to a turbo motor big_smile

Now happily part of Speedycop.

formerly:
Ziegel Scheißhaus Racing & ReVolvolution Racing

8 Reply by secorp (edited by secorp 2011-01-06 12:43 AM)

  • From: Oakland CA
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 36

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Check out this guy's site, crazy Finnish drifting w123 300TD, the entire build (including cage) is very instructive for making lots of black smoke safely smile

http://www.youtube.com/user/BlackSmokeT … J1einM3K_c

[Edit] Here's his build video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX6D2EtS … r_embedded

and main site:

http://www.blacksmokeracing.com/

Have fun!

  • From: Frederick, MD
  • Registered: 2011-01-03
  • Posts: 119

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

yeah thats no stock 617 engine lol, he has a fully tweaked 606 in that thing

Now happily part of Speedycop.

formerly:
Ziegel Scheißhaus Racing & ReVolvolution Racing
  • From: Life's great in 21158
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 3,361

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Yeah, we're Tunachuckers all right.  ;-)  Our '66 (well, that's what year the chassis plate is from...) Volvo 122 has been through 5 races and in our last one the front end got cracked up pretty bad.  So I have this '79 300D, see....and no, we weren't planning on using the 80 hp, I5 N/A diesel engine.  Nor the automatic transmission.  There are "other" plans for the motivation...right now my biggest concern is safety.  I've always liked the 123's handling, and the 4 wheel discs (with dual pot master cylinder!) would be a big step up from the volvo's brakes.  Plus, just about any engine you can name will weigh less than that massive diesel lump.

Evil Genius, if you find a link to your cages that would be most helpful.  I'll check out that drifter car site, too.

Our team is headquarterd (loosely) in Greenville, SC.  We have a website- www.tunachuckers.com- and a blog, neither of which I've updated since last year but if we start making progress on the MB I'll definitely start posting again.  So far we've only ever run at CMP, but the prospect of the Charlotte race is exciting.  Also, I'm signed on to drive Speedycop's octo-racer whenever it gets running.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

mechimike's Website

  • From: Frederick, MD
  • Registered: 2011-01-03
  • Posts: 119

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

You've also got a little room with the brakes on it to play with too- they used the same rear calipers for everything but you can swap over the bigger front brakes from a 2nd gen W126 and everything bolts right up.

Now happily part of Speedycop.

formerly:
Ziegel Scheißhaus Racing & ReVolvolution Racing
  • Registered: 2010-09-14
  • Posts: 219

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

mechimike, we run a w124 which is very similar in layout.  As you are likely dealing with the rear diagonals' steep angle, I will take pictures of the cage this afternoon.  Richard Tomlin here in Houston came up with a solution to strengthen the main hoop with a Petty bar.

"You can’t make a pig into a race car, but you can make a very fast pig."
  • From: Columbia, South Cackalacke
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 602

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

May I suggest adding a Sneaky Pete nitrous system inside the cage?
http://performanceparts.com/performance_parts_images/nos_05029NOS.jpg

You are gonna need it. tongue

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)
  • From: Frederick, MD
  • Registered: 2011-01-03
  • Posts: 119

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

So what are the Lemons rules for nitrous refueling? big_smile

Now happily part of Speedycop.

formerly:
Ziegel Scheißhaus Racing & ReVolvolution Racing
  • Registered: 2010-09-14
  • Posts: 219

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Here ya go.  Looking forward to your engine swap.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df27b3127ccefc598764b70b00000030O02KZtHDVsyB7efBQ/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df27b3127ccefc58dc41d7d700000030O02KZtHDVsyB7efBQ/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df27b3127ccefc5953a0b7a500000030O02KZtHDVsyB7efBQ/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df27b3127ccefc5807f716a400000030O02KZtHDVsyB7efBQ/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df27b3127ccefc5970fdf77100000030O02KZtHDVsyB7efBQ/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df27b3127ccefc5848d9d70500000030O02KZtHDVsyB7efBQ/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

"You can’t make a pig into a race car, but you can make a very fast pig."
  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,745

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

johnhef wrote:

So what are the Lemons rules for nitrous refueling? big_smile

Don't get caught tongue

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: Life's great in 21158
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 3,361

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Man, those are some steep rear diagonals.  Did they pass muster?  Did the scrutineers allow them?

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

mechimike's Website

  • From: Columbia SC
  • Registered: 2010-09-12
  • Posts: 864

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

mechimike wrote:

Man, those are some steep rear diagonals.  Did they pass muster?  Did the scrutineers allow them?

same thing I thought I dont see those rear diagonals passing tech

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

19 Reply by pennintj (edited by pennintj 2011-01-07 06:33 AM)

  • From: New Orleans, LA
  • Registered: 2009-05-16
  • Posts: 635

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Peer 1 Mercedes 300 information is here.
http://www.peer1.com/blog/2009/06/peer- … of-lemons/

I saw it at NPR last year and it kinda put me on the w123 line of thought. At the time I only had one, but have since picked up two more, including a nice but blown motor '79 which was going to be a body swap for my '81. Wagon trumps sedan though.

Here's a somewhat useful shot of the down tubes in the back. Looks like they're connected to either the rear shock mounts or simply to the wheel well(?) with blocking.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3664/3615547776_2ff95ca0ab.jpg

This one looks like it has a larger loop, and the down tubes run pretty far back.
http://www.murileemartin.com/LSS09/LSS09-0614.jpg

-tom

-=HFC Tom

20 Reply by Team BenzGay (edited by Team BenzGay 2011-01-07 08:00 AM)

  • Registered: 2010-09-14
  • Posts: 219

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

The steep rear diagonals on our 124 tie into a beefy section where the rear suspension subframe attaches to the unibody.  As they are steep, the main hoop is reinforced with the "Petty" bar, a diagonal brace running forward from the main loop to the passenger side foot well.  They car passed tech at the last MSR race. 

On the 300D in the pictures above, the rear diagonals are braced against the thin sheet metal of the wheel wells above the rear tires, not exactly a strong location.  If that passed tech...

http://images.neoriginal.ru/index.php?cat=mb&filename=/B63/B63015000030.920519.gif&hash=1b04d1a6580877b5c047bdfda2c7d139

If the diagonals were run down to the floor as we did they would tie into the section where the rear cross member meets the rear floor (#20) about the area where the rear subframe mounts to the unibody.  The rear seatbelt reel mounts are at #23.
http://images.neoriginal.ru/index.php?cat=mb&filename=/B61/B61045000041.920519.gif&hash=a039e886e3b426df38c036c5128aa504

These cars would be easier to cage in back were the gas tank not safely tucked behind the rear seat above the rear axle.  For what it is worth, the rear crumple zone works best if there is a spare tire mounted in the well.  The US w123s had light weight 14" aluminum rims on the spares and that, with a spare tire, would provide additional protection to the gas tank in back.

"You can’t make a pig into a race car, but you can make a very fast pig."
  • From: Columbus, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-26
  • Posts: 2,839

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Team BenzGay wrote:

These cars would be easier to cage in back were the gas tank not safely tucked behind the rear seat above the rear axle.

Huh!  My LS400 has the gas tank behind the seat, above the rear axle, as well.  I didn't know of any other cars like that.  Interesting.  Since Toyota was copying Mercedes pretty shamelessly (and in my opinion improving on it in some ways, missing the mark in other ways), it makes sense that they share a distinctive feature.

Seems like a really safe location compared to hanging under the car.  But it does make it impossible to have fold-down rear seats.  (And, apparently, difficult to cage.)

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.
  • From: Life's great in 21158
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 3,361

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

I like that behind the rear seat gas tank location.  Makes it so I don't have to worry about having a cell.  Very safe- plus its a decent sized tank- 15 or 16 gallon, I believe, maybe a bit more. 

I have a few of those aluminum spare rims. 

We have a Petty bar on our Amazon Lemons car- I do like them, and its a handly place to mount the extinguisher.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

mechimike's Website

  • Serj
  • Serj
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  • From: Cincinnati, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,601

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

dculberson wrote:
Team BenzGay wrote:

These cars would be easier to cage in back were the gas tank not safely tucked behind the rear seat above the rear axle.

Huh!  My LS400 has the gas tank behind the seat, above the rear axle, as well.  I didn't know of any other cars like that.  Interesting.  Since Toyota was copying Mercedes pretty shamelessly (and in my opinion improving on it in some ways, missing the mark in other ways), it makes sense that they share a distinctive feature.

Seems like a really safe location compared to hanging under the car.  But it does make it impossible to have fold-down rear seats.  (And, apparently, difficult to cage.)

Crown Vics do it this way as well. there was actually a TSB bulletin to install a trauma/impact plate above the rear axle as there was a chance the axle wound bound upwards and pierce the tank in a high-speed rear-end collision. It's something of an unlikely scenario so i think they only mandated it for the P71s in active duty for police departments.

  • From: Columbus, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-26
  • Posts: 2,839

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Serj wrote:

Crown Vics do it this way as well. there was actually a TSB bulletin to install a trauma/impact plate above the rear axle as there was a chance the axle wound bound upwards and pierce the tank in a high-speed rear-end collision. It's something of an unlikely scenario so i think they only mandated it for the P71s in active duty for police departments.

I bet that's more likely (relatively speaking!) in a live axle suspension.  With the IRS of a Mercedes or Lexus, it seems even less likely since the diff isn't moving around.

Hmph.  Now I really want to do the LS400 as a Lemons car.  (the 1992 was a legit $500 purchase.)  I have to decide for 2011 whether to run the Quad4 CRX again - trying for more reliability - or move on.  The LS400 is one of my other options.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

25 Reply by Evil Genius (edited by Evil Genius 2011-01-07 12:20 PM)

  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Mercedes W123 (300D) Roll Cage Help Needed

Here is the forum with our w114 cage:   

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=2870

  We built two of them, one for his red Mercedes-powered car and one for his bad-ass ford powered car.



  -John

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'