1 (edited by Evil Genius 2011-03-10 01:22 PM)

Topic: Bad Cage,

Very, Very bad....

       HQ was sent some pics of this cage, it got shot down without even coming to me.     

        It was brought to my shop for replacement...    Thought I'd post it as a cautionary tale.

      I do not know who built it... Just that it is horrible....     

      Pics:
 
         Way too low:

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4765.jpg

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4766.jpg

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4767.jpg

        Too close to the seat, harness bar too low:

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4770.jpg

        Incomplete and burned through plate welds:

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4768.jpg

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4769.jpg

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4771.jpg

        Incomplete tube to plate welds visible after cage was cut out:

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4775.jpg

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4776.jpg
 
       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4774.jpg

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4773.jpg

        Bad ERW cage removed:

       http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4777.jpg

        I'll add pics as we fix it.

     -John

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Bad Cage,

Based on the shipping labels on the main hoop, that looks like a poorly-assembled S&W cage kit.

Former chief proprietor and lead bad idea generator of Binford "More Power" Racing, 2010-2013: humbly self-proclaimed the best Chevy Beretta in Lemons history.

Re: Bad Cage,

Repaired plates.  We cleaned them up, re-welded and added to them.  Notice the tie-in to the rocker panel, adds strength.   Also, we cut out the sunroof so the main hoop can be 2" higher.

  -John


  http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4779.jpg

  http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4778.jpg

  http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4780.jpg

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Bad Cage,

What's up with the nut in the middle of the rocker plate on the driver's side?

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: Bad Cage,

EyeMWing wrote:

What's up with the nut in the middle of the rocker plate on the driver's side?

I'm guessing harness lap belt mount.

-Victor

6 (edited by RandomTask 2011-03-10 02:04 PM)

Re: Bad Cage,

EyeMWing wrote:

What's up with the nut in the middle of the rocker plate on the driver's side?

Seat belt mount perhaps? 

Side question(s) - Can I get some input on our cage?  One of the things I've noticed, we have neither the 'halo' tyoe or the 'main hoop' type.  Although the cage isn't done, if you look at the pictures, you can see the bars are continuous from the front foot wells to the main center hoop of the cage.  Also, there really isn't that much gap as it seems (cage is about .5" away from sheet metal)

http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/44824/2771305390078319372S600x600Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/45697/2441039650078319372S600x600Q85.jpg


http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/45375/2217386960078319372S600x600Q85.jpg

It isn't done - things we have left to do,
Does the diagonal bar that goes from the top left behind the driver to the bottom right have to be continuous? We already have the belt bar ready to be welded in and were going to make two pieces for that diagonal. 

Also, we were going to make a cross bar for the top of the cage.  Lastly, we were going to install another door bar with an angle to help triangulate the front bars that I mentioned earlier.

Re: Bad Cage,

That sunroof cassette is pretty heavy and should be cut out on any E30 race car.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Bad Cage,

EyeMWing wrote:

What's up with the nut in the middle of the rocker plate on the driver's side?

Harness mount. A 7/16" find thread flange nut welded in from the back side.   We put them in all our e-30(and some other cars) roll cages.

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Bad Cage,

Rear stay plate added:

   http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4781.jpg

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Bad Cage,

RandomTask wrote:
EyeMWing wrote:

What's up with the nut in the middle of the rocker plate on the driver's side?

Seat belt mount perhaps? 

Side question(s) - Can I get some input on our cage?  One of the things I've noticed, we have neither the 'halo' tyoe or the 'main hoop' type.  Although the cage isn't done, if you look at the pictures, you can see the bars are continuous from the front foot wells to the main center hoop of the cage.  Also, there really isn't that much gap as it seems (cage is about .5" away from sheet metal)

http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/44824 … 600Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/45697 … 600Q85.jpg


http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/45375 … 600Q85.jpg

It isn't done - things we have left to do,
Does the diagonal bar that goes from the top left behind the driver to the bottom right have to be continuous? We already have the belt bar ready to be welded in and were going to make two pieces for that diagonal. 

Also, we were going to make a cross bar for the top of the cage.  Lastly, we were going to install another door bar with an angle to help triangulate the front bars that I mentioned earlier.

I'd like to see the front of those down bars higher, but other than that its OK.  Just add the rest of the bars, you'll be fine..

-John

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Bad Cage,

New main hoop, diagonal and rear stays installed.     New hoop is 4.5" taller than before.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4782.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4784.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/Evilgeniusracing/100_4785.jpg

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Bad Cage,

Maybe just the view, but those rear stays don't look anywhere near 45°. Is that just the nearest solid point?

Maximum Efforts Motorsports
Mid-Engine Chevette
S-10 incoming...

Re: Bad Cage,

St. Mary wrote:

Maybe just the view, but those rear stays don't look anywhere near 45°. Is that just the nearest solid point?

(I can not nor do I intend to answer for EvilJohnious )

Lemons ain't FIA, but FIA article 253 states "[Backstays] must form an angle at least 30-degrees with the vertical..."

That's "at least". The FIA design takes into account a bunch of other required elements that are also part of the cage when they allow for that 30-degree minimum.

Get as close to 45 degrees as you can. If you can't, figure out what else you need to do to compensate and get Lemons approval.

Re: Bad Cage,

Spank wrote:

Get as close to 45 degrees as you can. If you can't, figure out what else you need to do to compensate and get Lemons approval.

Get as close as you can to 45*.  +/- a few degrees isn't going to make or break a cage.  A 35* angle to good metal that compresses onto the spreader plate with good welds will be better than a 45.0* angle that creates a shear force on the spreader plate with marginal welds on bad metal. 

The problem is, of course, that the Lemons organizers know that somebody (or team of people) think that because they have a welder and S&W has a prefab cage that makes them qualified to put it together.  So they have to be pretty specific about some of the cage specs.  The absolute scary thing is that people show up to the races with cages like the first set of pictures and expect to race.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Bad Cage,

The problem is NOT the S&W kit and is how its put together right?

We got our kit from them and it seemed to be rather complete and a very good snug fit to our car.

Daniel Sycks

Re: Bad Cage,

Our pre-bent S&W cage is fine, and has passed tech twice with no issues, earning the high praise of "looks decently built."

This particular install ain't so great.

Former chief proprietor and lead bad idea generator of Binford "More Power" Racing, 2010-2013: humbly self-proclaimed the best Chevy Beretta in Lemons history.

Re: Bad Cage,

dsycks wrote:

The problem is NOT the S&W kit and is how its put together right?

Yes, I didn't mean to imply the S&W cage was sub par, only that it still takes someone with some skill to get one installed safely.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Bad Cage,

RandomTask wrote:

Does the diagonal bar that goes from the top left behind the driver to the bottom right have to be continuous?

I am by no means a cage expert, but I believe the main hoop diagonal should be continuous.  The harness bar split notched into the diagonal.  But you might want to email the techs to be certain.

Ryan Jones
J4 Racing
BAM-Z-NO! Team Holdafone 1987 NA 300zx
Still looking to get into the top 50%.

Re: Bad Cage,

Bremsen wrote:
RandomTask wrote:

Does the diagonal bar that goes from the top left behind the driver to the bottom right have to be continuous?

I am by no means a cage expert, but I believe the main hoop diagonal should be continuous.  The harness bar split notched into the diagonal.  But you might want to email the techs to be certain.

The diagonal is preferred to be continuous, but the other way is acceptable if everything else is kosher

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Re: Bad Cage,

Evil Genius wrote:

New main hoop, diagonal and rear stays installed.     New hoop is 4.5" taller than before.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279 … 0_4782.jpg

I thought the diagonal needs to go from the lower corner (at the floor plate) to the upper opposite corner. To me that diagonal does not look to be correct, since it goes to the 2/3 point of the upper horizontal.

Dudes Ex Machina: https://www.facebook.com/dudesexmachina

?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: Bad Cage,

corner to corner is the ideal location.  The allowable tolerances for the location mean it's fine as shown.

Re: Bad Cage,

It is standard practice to keep the diagonal about 10" from the left upper corner of the main hoop.  That keeps it away from the driver's head and allows more room for a seat.

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Bad Cage,

FYI One piece Diagonal tubing is a scc/nasa/roadracing  thing, and a one piece harness bar is a NHRA thing.

Re: Bad Cage,

another example of "I can do that" gone horribly wrong....so the "team" has to pay for TWO cages...... 

Yes I am a customer or EGR and have been for years....but my cars ALWAYS pass tech, no matter where I am running....Lemons, Chump,NASA, NCRC, PCA....anywhere....it could pass SCCA if they took automatics?

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

25 (edited by backwinded17 2011-03-15 03:33 AM)

Re: Bad Cage,

NEED TECH ADVICE!!!!

1984 rx7
Ran a string over the front and rear hoop centered over the drivers head and found that we did not have the 2" clearance. So we lowered the rear of the seat and bolted it to the floor which lowered the drivers helmet enough to be in compliance with the rule.

We have an autopower bolt in roll cage and the base plates are not 24 sq. in. Can we add welded L brackets to get to the 24sqin or should we try to put plates under the cage plates with matching size plates under the floor. Not sure if this will cause back brace or other interference problems.

Other possible issues/problems:
Do the 45 degree back braces that go to the wheel wells require 24 sq in plates also?
Is the bolt in cage is legal?
The bolts that hold the sleeves appear to be grade 5 is this legal?
Is it possible to get a Lemon's tech person to tech this car well ahead of the Gingerman event?

I DON'T want to be building the car to compliance at the event.
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.
joe
team badluckytouch