Topic: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

So I need a tow vehicle. I have many irons in the fire and really need somebody to give me some focus. As it is now, I'm practically paralyzed by the utter inability to compare my options.

Here's a vague summary of what I'm considering:

1) The obvious. F-350 or 250 single-rear-wheel crew cab pickup. Diesel. 4WD. Pulling 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: Plentiful.
Disadvantages: Bloody damned expensive. $10k for a reasonable example of the truck alone. No enclosed tool/work/sleep space.

2) The nonobvious: F-350, 450, 550 work truck with a job box. These are often 2WD, but 4WD shows up occasionally. Pulling the same 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: No more expensive than an F-350, occasionally cheaper. Lots of different configurations including some with walk-in workspaces.
Disadvantages: They've all lived hard lives. Much rarer than the pickups. Still kind of expensive at ~$10k minimum. Technically against zoning regulations, but would probably squeak by the neighbor detection array.

3) The van: E-250 or E-350 long-wheelbase passenger or cargo van. 2WD. Pulling the same 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: Just as capable of towing as the trucks, but with enclosed storage. Also, somewhat cheaper.
Disadvantages: Relatively rare.

4) The weird: E-350/450/550 based shuttle bus. 2WD. Same 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: A van, but bigger!
Disadvantages: Arguably lower towing capacity. Against zoning regulations, would likely irk neighbors but not promote a visit from the county.

5) The bizarre: Bus-chassis short school bus (Think Navistar 3800) towing the same 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: DUDE!~ Also, if I'm stupid and forego a proper 4-cyl truck engine, the Navistar T444E is a Powerstroke in drag. Cheap as chips, all day long.
Disadvantages: Arguably no towing capacity whatsoever. "The frame isn't built for it" people who know about these things tell me. Against zoning regulations and over the neighbor annoyance threshold.

6) The awesome: School bus (Navistar 3800 or similar) towing 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: FUCKING PARTY! See the short bus above, but add more awesome.
Disadvantages: Almost definitely no towing capacity whatsoever. That big overhang at the rear screams "this will bend if you apply any weight". Probably need to bump to a class B license. Will require offsite storage for zoning reasons.

7) Van-chassis RV, towing 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: It's made to host parties and sleep. A large selection of sizes and shapes to choose from.
Disadvantages: Limited towing capacity, it's not built to house any actual work. They also tend towards the pricey (or disgusting) ends of the spectrum. Will require offsite storage for zoning reasons, or construction of an additional, large enclosed structure (which in and of itself is too large for zoning regulations and would require a zoning variance)

8) Bus-chassis RV, towing 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: See van-chassis RV.
Disadvantages: See van-chassis RV, but make it cost three times as much.  Will require offsite storage for zoning reasons, or construction of an additional, large enclosed structure (which in and of itself is too large for zoning regulations and would require a zoning variance)

9) Flatbed tow truck, no trailer.
Advantages: Two cars, three if you get one with the roof rack, four if you get a long one with the roof rack and a really long bed.
Disadvantages: MASSIVELY expensive registration, scary hydraulics, potential need for CDL, No interior space for storage or work. Will require offsite storage.

10) Ramp truck, no trailer.
Advantages: Hella retro awesome, fairly inexpensive. Can add a trailer for additional capacity.
Disadvantages: Most of them are quite old, from buidlers of unknown provenance, and there's no interior space for storage or work.

11) 14ft van-chassis box van (Think Uhaul), towing the same old 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: Indoors! Plentiful. Cheap.
Disadvantages: Beat to shit. Stripper models. Will require offsite storage for zoning reasons.

12) 26ft box van (Think Penske) towing the same old 18ft flatbed.
Advantages: Tons of indoors! Plentiful! Cheap! Not terribly beaten into the ground.
Disadvantages: Will require offsite storage for zoning reasons.


If we discount everything that would require offsite storage, it becomes plainly clear that my neighbors are fucking communists and the county government is even worse.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Suburban?

Excursion?  V10 vs powerstroke

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Why 4WD?

Here's my rig:

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad286/trekkor/car%20photo%20dump/P1120197.jpg

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad286/trekkor/car%20photo%20dump/P1110486.jpg



KT

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4 (edited by EyeMWing 2012-07-08 05:55 PM)

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Suburban 1500 is too lightweight, I'm planning for the ability to shift up to an enclosed trailer at some point (unless the tow vehicle choice makes that pointless). A Suburban 2500 is possible, but those are rare.

I was behind an Excursion the other day and thought about it. But I just don't know enough about them.

... And until now, I'd completely managed to discount SUV ownership as "too boring" and "for soccer moms". You're making the list longer, not shorter!


As for why 4WD, if I'm going to buy a pickup, it also needs to replace my Dakota for general yard work/farm work/logging work/general inexplicable ill-advised offroad towing jobs. The Dakota can then go do something useful, like become a Lemons racer, or some sort of junk offroader. I'm pretty sure even a crew cab long bed dually 4WD F-350 has a smaller turning radius than the 4x4 1st gen Dakota anyway.


Incidentally, I'd buy a manual-equipped Cummins truck IMMEDIATELY.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

5 (edited by TeamLemon-aid 2012-07-09 11:16 AM)

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

This!!!

http://www.racingjunk.com/Tow-vehicles/ … F-600.html

http://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.racingjunk.com/ui/4/78/26796784-848-86-F-600.jpg

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Oh god that's spectacular and priced right, but falls afoul of zoning (and I am absolutely certain at least one neighbor would have hissy fits and likely call the cops - he's done it before over a mere F-350 flatbed because "its weight damages the street!")

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Sounds like you need/want #1. 

Gonna be $15K + for a reasonable 4WD example with an extended cab that you can use for daily chores and tow an 18ft trailer or larger.

Good luck!!!!

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Who ever told you that buses can't haul or tow was wrong.  Visit any circle track on race night and count all the low budget guys using buses every weekend to haul their race cars.  Since you are a 4x4 guy too you should know that plenty of folks use buses to tow and haul trail rigs every weekend.  A bus is built on a medium duty truck chassis; usually a fairly heavy one at that - "think of the children".  No one specing out a school bus is gonna ask for a light chassis if it means the bus folds up in an accident.  If you really want a school bus visit www.skoolie.net or search www.pirate4x4.com in the tow rig section for more info.

On diesel pickups - '94-'97 Ford trucks with Powerstroke motors can be found for less than half your budget.  A teammate bought a '96 crew cab dually with a recent Jasper auto trans and utility box for $1500.  Needed some work but I know he's into it for way less than $10K even with a shop doing repairs.

Nick
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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/tSoG_bucket/10040905592.jpg

talk about bad ideas? my friends and I drove 300+ miles with the parts to make this a rolling chassis, bolted struts/control arms/hubs/rear beam/wheels on in the former owners driveway in the dark, then home! who needs a truck for race car?

my vote is for full bus

http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/pts/3083114949.html

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

EyeMWing wrote:

Incidentally, I'd buy a manual-equipped Cummins truck IMMEDIATELY.

This.

I love my 24V, but I just had to put a built transmission in it.  A 12V manual should be in your price range, but rare.

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

We bought our '97 F-250 HD 4x4, 7.3 Powersmoke, 5-spd truck with 180k miles for about $4k.  Chris Blizzard from the Judgebusters E30 team just bought a similar truck, though a crew cab for about the same money (though his isn't as clean as mine).  Gets mid teens fuel economy pretty much all the time and has been a good towing companion for a couple years now.  For me the kicker compared to your other (while awesome) options is it's usable day to day should I need/chose to. 

For us in the PNW, 4WD isn't an option, or I'd seriously consider a 7.3 equipped van (and don't talk to me about Quigleys or Sportsmobiles).

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j160/ixnayxj/DSC_0865.jpg

-Matt

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

When I knew I was getting too far into the crapcan racing, I sold my sedan and bought a 2500HD pickup. Still rent/borrow a trailer for races.

Jim

Good Luck Everybody Else Racing. Yes, we have a fan page.

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Vanagon. We've towed the Beetle to TX and back, by way of Colorado and Moab, It doesn't get any more turible than that.

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

EyeMWing wrote:

I'm pretty sure even a crew cab long bed dually 4WD F-350 has a smaller turning radius than the 4x4 1st gen Dakota anyway.


Incidentally, I'd buy a manual-equipped Cummins truck IMMEDIATELY.

I drove my father's 2005 F350 POWERSTROKE CREW CAB KING RANCH 4X4 DUALLY!!!  (you really can't talk about such a truck without yelling it in your best redneck voice) to go get a backup drivetrain for the Merkurian Falcon the other night because my Subaru is 2,200 miles overdue for an oil change, has a CV joint that should've blown apart 1,000 miles ago, and my utility trailer is in about 50 pieces right now so I can get the rust work done on it before somebody puts FIAT stickers on it. You need four spaces for the F350 at Burger King, what should be a normal three point turn makes you feel like Austin Powers with the golf cart in Dr. Evil's tunnel...if a Dakota really has that big a turning radius, damn! But by gar, if you need to tow a VW Scirocco to autocrosses, this truck and a 30 something foot enclosed gooseneck trailer is the way to go...or something. smile

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

We did #3.

It was a Chevy G20 2WD with a 305CI Gas motor.

I had to add a extra leaf in both rear springs to handle the trailer and the equipment. We have the short van. You can find the long conversion vans easier than the cargo vans but you will have to beef up the rear springs.

Do you have to go with Ford? Chevy/GMC vans are just as good and 3/4 tons(G 20) are plentiful.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/560315_10150690161073085_1396807948_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526217_10150690161113085_1518106122_n.jpg

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Tow race-trailer BEHIND racecar.

Silly man.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/264776_2169190873870_3193346_n.jpg

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17 (edited by davisriley 2012-07-09 10:56 AM)

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

I actually just sucked it up and bought a 2003 f-250 6.0 diesel 4x4 a month ago, 3 days before driving the 20 hours back and forth to Summit Poibnt.  Got it cheap, $6500, has some miles but a good maint history.  All I can say is I should have done it a long time ago.  Almost 16 mpg back and forth with an open trailer, celica, and a bed full of crap.  And we "may" have been slightly above the posted speed limit.  Plus there are some pretty good size hills on the last half of the drive out and the first half on the way back.  Plus the ac was ice cold.  It easily has the power to haul the 26 foot enclosed we pull sometime too, which the expedition and the 4.6 f150 could not anywhere near as comfortably.  It's my daily driver, and get's close to 25 or so on the highway unladed, driven easily.  And both me and my son love the fact that it soundls like a freightliner.  Win all around!

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

IMHO, I wouldn't say that the E-250/E-350 vans are "Just as capable of towing as the trucks".  They certainly can do alright, depending on how big/heavy your trailer is, and the benefits of the enclosed storage may outweigh the negatives, but for pure towing capability in my experience they don't seem to be the equal of a similar rated truck.  I don't know why (height, overhang, suspension geometry, brake design, etc), but the vans just feel more squirrelly in a straight line, less inspiring under braking, and sometime downright frightening around corners while towing.

This is not to say that one can't tow safely with a van - you certainly can.  And the enclosed space is great and certainly may make them the best option for your needs.  Just that they aren't "just as capable" as a truck.

For pure towing capability, a dual rear wheel truck can't be beat.  Next up is a single wheel truck, then vans are out in third.

-Victor

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

sublimate wrote:

For pure towing capability, a dual rear wheel truck can't be beat.  Next up is a single wheel truck, then vans are out in third.

Technically, is there any reason a van couldn't be convert to duals?

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

CowDriver wrote:
sublimate wrote:

For pure towing capability, a dual rear wheel truck can't be beat.  Next up is a single wheel truck, then vans are out in third.

Technically, is there any reason a van couldn't be convert to duals?

Nope.

http://www.rc-trucks.org/Diesel-Performance.jpg

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

CowDriver wrote:
sublimate wrote:

For pure towing capability, a dual rear wheel truck can't be beat.  Next up is a single wheel truck, then vans are out in third.

Technically, is there any reason a van couldn't be convert to duals?

Nope.

https://www.google.com/search?um=1& … 6gGI0uzaBg

http://people.oregonstate.edu/~carringb/-new-%20van/IMG_0014.JPG

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6503807407_bca6573eaa.jpg

Late last year I picked up this truck.  It's ugly as hell, but it's fits its role.  When I went looking for a tow vehicle I had some specific criteria:

1. I wanted something that was diesel.  The torque and efficiency of the diesels with the mountains here in California is pretty important.  My experience of climbing the mountains to Reno and going over 152 on the west coast looms in my mind with the gas truck we used last year.  Plus getting 7mpg in a gas-engined truck really really sucked.  It ended up being the single largest cost in a couple of races.

2. I wanted something pre-smog in California.  Because The Man.  This means pre-1998 for diesels.

3. The 7.3 Turbo Powerstroke is a very well-known engine and is excellent.  Combined with #2, it meant that I really wanted something built between 1994.5 and 1997.  A very short set of years.

3. I wanted something with a 5-speed.  The auto transmissions just don't last long enough.  (We actually had to replace the trans in the truck that I took to reno last year.  It only had 60k miles on it.  Others report similar problems.)

4. I wanted something that had a crew cab.  This was for two reasons.  First, when we're dragging a lot of tools with us, I wanted somewhere to lock them up to make it at least inconvenient to walk away from them.  If you remove the back seat there's tons of room back there for them.  Also if you do leave the seat in the back you can sleep pretty comfortably in the bench seat.

5. I wanted a 4x4.  This was based on other people's experiences.  Apparently it's easy to get stuck in the mud at tracks after it rains with a trailer attached.  The front-hub locking on the fords seems good because it doesn't drag the front drive train with it when the 4x4 isn't on.

6. I wanted something that can tow at least 10,000 lbs.  We tend to tow a trailer + car (around 4.5k) plus engines and tools and transmissions.  And we tend to travel as more than one team at a time, so I'm often carrying stuff for two teams in the back.  We'll upgrade to an enclosed trailer at some point and that will add even more weight.

7.  I wanted a single wheel in the back.  We're not going to be carrying that much absolute weight on top of the axle and I didn't want the extra-wide profile, extra tires and hit in efficiency.

This truck was around $4,700 and I've dumped another couple thousand in parts into it so it's about $7k in total spend.  It's slowly getting reliable and we're learning its quirks.  But it was the right choice - it's a 4x4, 5 speed 7.3 PowerStroke.  Total gross weight is 20k lbs, with about 13.3k in towing capacity (check your axle type!)  It's small enough so it gets mid-teens in gas mileage with light loads and around 11 or so with a lot of stuff behind it.  The only problem with this one is that it's a long bed so turning it sucks.

And it's ugly as hell so it's perfect for Lemons.

So this was how I found a tow vehicle.  Understand how you want to use it and then narrow it down from there.

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

EyeMWing wrote:

So I need a tow vehicle. I have many irons in the fire and really need somebody to give me some focus. As it is now, I'm practically paralyzed by the utter inability to compare my options.

To give yourself some focus I'd only concentrate on the first 3 options (pickup, utility, or van).

All those other options are interesting and fine for someone who's really driven to go in one of those particular directions (eg, you've always fantasized about owning a school bus ever since you made out with little Suzy Rottencrotch in the back row on a 5th grade field trip).  But there are some real trade-offs for each of those, so you have to really want one of those particular types to get over the shortcomings, which you don't seem to be.

One of the main problems with all of those "alternative" options is you'll end up with a vehicle that you've put a bunch of money in but that will have almost no resale value and will only appeal to handful of other insane people (most of whom are on this forum).  So if you decide later decide you don't like it or need to go in another direction you're screwed.  Having Nazi neighbors would seem to seal the deal - you could be stuck with a monstrosity you can't sell but you also can't keep.

-Victor

Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

just to throw a wrench in the works, I think diesels are a waste.  The cost more to purchase, more to maintain, more to repair, and the fuel is more.  If you are luck, you break even after 100k on purchase vs. fuel, but a net loss once you figure in repairs.  There is a certain romantic appeal to them, but by the numbers they don't make sence.

I have towed 50k+ miles in my 8.1 (496ci.) with an Allison with nary a problem.  Gets 8 with an enclosed, and 10 with an open trailer, all that an my fuel is 25% less per gallon.  Spank will attest it has some grunt. That doesn't factor in oil change or diesel, lift pumps, turbos, or the other myriad of problems. 

All that being said, i think the ambulances are the way to go if you are set on one.

oh and it's lowered, air bags in the back and 22's wink

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/224704_10150245207912150_3038214_n.jpg

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Re: The terrible tow vehicle idea thread

Actually, I noted that diesel was cheaper than gasoline in Buttonwillow near the track last weekend.

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