Re: Z equals Zero

jamesohoh7 wrote:

...what is the biggest single point of failure on a Z?... motor, trans, or is there just no one thing and -everything- just falls off of them?

I agree with Troy on the older Zs.  They are getting up there in age and anything in the $500 range will be pretty ragged out.

The Z31 Zs (84-89) seem to be more competitive.  They are the least loved Z model (hence our Black Sheep Racing name) and their values reflect it.  A great running $500 Z31 can be found with nothing more that rust and beat up body panels.  The V6 is powerful and indestructible.  The braking and handling are not too bad once you start ditching some weight.  There were 3 different manual transmissions offered during its life cycle and at stock power levels, they are all very reliable.  Power steering units tend to be a problem but that is a luxury, not a necessity for Lemons.

Not sure why all the other Z31s are having such a tough time but we have not had any issues in either of the races we have done.

The weak link now for us is strategy and driver skill.

27 (edited by YesIFit 2009-10-27 07:56 AM)

Re: Z equals Zero

There must be some fatal flaw with the combo of a Nissan and a 6 cylinder. After my team leader failed to get our e24 ready in time, I joined up with some friends to drive their Nissan.

That '86 S12 200SX (2.0 4-banger) has now run 3 complete, albeit slow, races without a single mechanical problem. We've contemplated dropping in a junkyard VG30 six from a 300ZX or a Maxima, but why jinx it?

Summer's Eve Racing - '09 Yee-Haw; '10 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie, Yee-Haw; '11 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie (Winner, Class A!)
TARP Racing - '11 Yee-Haw, Heaps; '12 Gator-O-Rama (Winner, Class C ... Looking for a Class B Win to Complete the Trifecta!), Heaps; '13 NorDal Hooptie, Gator-O-Rama

Re: Z equals Zero

Judge Jonny wrote:

I would just like to point out that the every time Troy's Z runs a race it breaks.

Meanwhile, the me and Judge Martin's old car, the Black Metal V8olvo, has run as many races as Troy's Z (4), has never broke, even at Altamont (OK -- one busted control arm -- but that was from RAMMING!) and actually WON the race.

Ford 302 mashed into a Volvo body.

Just sayin'

Another reason to mash a 5.0 in the Z.  Odds are this will result in breaking even faster.

Who knows the common link between a V8 Volvo and a Z and what is it?

This race was our first major engine issue but we did take the checker.

Most of our problems have been the clutch or transmission which is primarily caused by the Driver.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Z equals Zero

Can we relate the same inherent flaws to other Datsun models of the time? My dad had a mid 70’s Datsun truck when I was a kid and I can remember it having major issues following suit with what we have described. Granted it was 10-12 years old at the time that I can remember back too. I seem to remember seeing an abundance of them in junk yards. Possibilities?

Re: Z equals Zero

A Ford V8 into a Z would solve the engine problems, but only if the team doing the swap resisted the urge to drop some hot-rod parts into the engine... which they wouldn't be able to do (every hooned-out Mustang with a hot Windsor has overheated and failed at Lemons). A Chevy V8 in a Z would make the engine problems even worse, plus the SBC is bigger and 150 pounds heavier than the Ford Windsor.

A Toyota 5M would be an excellent engine choice for the Z, but the perpetrators of such a swap would be lynched by a howling mob of brand-loyal Nissan fanboys.

We've learned a lot of important lessons about cars from Lemons, including:

1. Honda engines are pretty much bulletproof on the street but tend to blow head gaskets in Lemons races.

2. Small-block Chevy engines kick ass in drag racing and live a long time on the street but overheat and fail in Lemons races.

3. Front-wheel-drive Celicas are the Glass Joe of Lemons racing, in spite of lasting 800 billion miles on the street.

4. Mazdas seem to have been built with Lemons in mind. They kinda suck on the street, but who cares?

5. Nissans seem to have been built with special sensors that detect the presence of a Lemons track and trigger Random Failure Mode. The 240SX is the only exception.

6. MR2s would dominate Lemons if they could be made to cool properly. That will never happen.

Re: Z equals Zero

We must have the only crummy Mazda Lemons car then... our car has never managed to make it through a race w/out spending at least 2 hours in the pits getting fixed on.   I think we're going to try a different car next year, or maybe this car and a 2nd car that's (hopefully) more reliable.

Then again, we really didn't 'do' anything to the Mazda to help increase reliability.  Oct 08, taken down by blown up water seals, cracked water pump, and other cooling system woes.  Feb 09, taken down by trans failure and clutch master-cyl failure (the latter led to the former).

This go-round, we were taken down on day-1 by an original heater hose that decided to split right above the hose-clamp and spew all our water out... oh, and various, mysterious oil-leaks that sprang forth on day-2.  We patched it up to get a finish, but lost lots of time.

Ok yeah, "you know, you could probably spend $5 on new hoses and fix that"...

True!...but that's $5 we won't have for beer... conundrum, that.

Re: Z equals Zero

Would the "Z gets a Zero" policy apply to a reliable euro vehicle (like a volvo 240DL or a Saab 900S) were repowered w/ the even more reliable Z-car engine and transmission?

I have my reasons for asking.  In fact those reasons are scattered about the barn right now.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

33

Re: Z equals Zero

When we blew a hole through the side of the block during the opening pace laps, we did indeed sneak our transponder under the rear bumper of another car. We were busted very fast. The Lemons gods know all....

xtn

Re: Z equals Zero

MurileeMartin wrote:

2. Small-block Chevy engines kick ass in drag racing and live a long time on the street but overheat and fail in Lemons races.

Knock on wood....

our little 4.4 liter small block Chevy just keeps on going. We replaced the water pump and thats it. We need to resist the urge to swap to a 4 barrel carb and keep our little 2 barrel I think. Honestly if we were faster I believe that car would not make the turns...lol

1980 Chevy Malibu Classic

Re: Z equals Zero

FJ40Jim wrote:

Would the "Z gets a Zero" policy apply to a reliable euro vehicle (like a volvo 240DL or a Saab 900S) were repowered w/ the even more reliable Z-car engine and transmission?

See, you make a new policy and the track lawyers start looking for loopholes right away!

Actually, a Volvo or Saab with Nissan L or VG engine would get zero laps on general principle, regardless of the Zero For Zs rule.

Re: Z equals Zero

MurileeMartin wrote:
FJ40Jim wrote:

Would the "Z gets a Zero" policy apply to a reliable euro vehicle (like a volvo 240DL or a Saab 900S) were repowered w/ the even more reliable Z-car engine and transmission?

See, you make a new policy and the track lawyers start looking for loopholes right away!

Actually, a Volvo or Saab with Nissan L or VG engine would get zero laps on general principle, regardless of the Zero For Zs rule.

Oooohhh, how about a Z600 then...tin can '70's Japanese micro-cars certainly shouldn't get any laps.  I don't even have an engine under the hood anymore :-)

Re: Z equals Zero

MurileeMartin wrote:

A Ford V8 into a Z would solve the engine problems, but only if the team doing the swap resisted the urge to drop some hot-rod parts into the engine... which they wouldn't be able to do (every hooned-out Mustang with a hot Windsor has overheated and failed at Lemons). A Chevy V8 in a Z would make the engine problems even worse, plus the SBC is bigger and 150 pounds heavier than the Ford Windsor.

A Toyota 5M would be an excellent engine choice for the Z, but the perpetrators of such a swap would be lynched by a howling mob of brand-loyal Nissan fanboys.

We've learned a lot of important lessons about cars from Lemons, including:

1. Honda engines are pretty much bulletproof on the street but tend to blow head gaskets in Lemons races.

2. Small-block Chevy engines kick ass in drag racing and live a long time on the street but overheat and fail in Lemons races.

3. Front-wheel-drive Celicas are the Glass Joe of Lemons racing, in spite of lasting 800 billion miles on the street.

4. Mazdas seem to have been built with Lemons in mind. They kinda suck on the street, but who cares?

5. Nissans seem to have been built with special sensors that detect the presence of a Lemons track and trigger Random Failure Mode. The 240SX is the only exception.

6. MR2s would dominate Lemons if they could be made to cool properly. That will never happen.

What you really need is a great engine like the one in our e28 rocket car.  The hamsters rarely get tired. It gets great gas mileage and it appears that it can even run with little or no oil in it! The way I figure it, if we cut off most of the bodywork to save a couple of hundred pounds we could really be a contender! wink

1985 528e Near Orbital Space Monkeys-GONE to orbit
1989 Rustang- "It's not like it's totally undriveable..."
"We came in pieces. We left in more..."

Re: Z equals Zero

Rumrunner wrote:
MurileeMartin wrote:

2. Small-block Chevy engines kick ass in drag racing and live a long time on the street but overheat and fail in Lemons races.

Knock on wood....

our little 4.4 liter small block Chevy just keeps on going. We replaced the water pump and thats it. We need to resist the urge to swap to a 4 barrel carb and keep our little 2 barrel I think. Honestly if we were faster I believe that car would not make the turns...lol

I had a friend who raced a 327 Chevy-powered "special" in the 60's and he found a secret to keeping SBC's cool in endurance races....but it probably would be budget-prohibitive for Lemons, so I'm not gonna tell anybody.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Z equals Zero

Soooo...318 powered Z, then?

1978 AMC Pacer - The Blue Flag Special
BFE GP '12 - IOE
BFE GP '13 - Co-Organizer's Choice w/ Speed Holes Wrenching

Re: Z equals Zero

MurileeMartin wrote:
A Ford V8 into a Z would solve the engine problems, but only if the team doing the swap resisted the urge to drop some hot-rod parts into the engine... which they wouldn't be able to do (every hooned-out Mustang with a hot Windsor has overheated and failed at Lemons). A Chevy V8 in a Z would make the engine problems even worse, plus the SBC is bigger and 150 pounds heavier than the Ford Windsor.

A Toyota 5M would be an excellent engine choice for the Z, but the perpetrators of such a swap would be lynched by a howling mob of brand-loyal Nissan fanboys.

We've learned a lot of important lessons about cars from Lemons, including:

1. Honda engines are pretty much bulletproof on the street but tend to blow head gaskets in Lemons races.

2. Small-block Chevy engines kick ass in drag racing and live a long time on the street but overheat and fail in Lemons races.

3. Front-wheel-drive Celicas are the Glass Joe of Lemons racing, in spite of lasting 800 billion miles on the street.

4. Mazdas seem to have been built with Lemons in mind. They kinda suck on the street, but who cares?

5. Nissans seem to have been built with special sensors that detect the presence of a Lemons track and trigger Random Failure Mode. The 240SX is the only exception.

6. MR2s would dominate Lemons if they could be made to cool properly. That will never happen.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


:breath:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:milkfromnose:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:passesout:

____________________________________
Always running on E \ ' ' ' ' F 
Speedycop and the Gang of Outlaws Official Ten+ Time Loser
Owner #132 Lancia/Toyota Beta/MR2 Scorpion

Re: Z equals Zero

A well prepped Z with decent drivers can do fine.  I know the one that I raced in for the first two Houston races finished both with no issues, we even put it in the top 10 in February,.... the same car went to it's home race in Baton Rouge and finished like 5th or 6th.

The guy who did most of the work on that car has a street 240Z that he has dropped a chevy small block into,.... he said that it is a real beast, I rode shotgun in it once on a track day at No Problem, and it does indeed haul ass,..... so the prospects of dropping a 302 or a chevy small block in there are very tempting,... just make sure that you have experienced drivers, and do something to get some rear down force -- off-throttle oversteer can be a bitch at high speed wink 

I have just located a pair of Z cars that I am going to check out this weekend,...... I have the sickness now for sure,..... somebody stop me!

Re: Z equals Zero

yamato wrote:

A well prepped Z with decent drivers can do fine.

HA HA HA HA!!!!

yamato wrote:

I have just located a pair of Z cars that I am going to check out this weekend,...... I have the sickness now for sure,..... somebody stop me!

Two Zs? Does that mean you get to win twice, or spend twice as much time under your car(s)?

Money is on the latter.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: Z equals Zero

MurileeMartin wrote:
FJ40Jim wrote:

Would the "Z gets a Zero" policy apply to a reliable euro vehicle (like a volvo 240DL or a Saab 900S) were repowered w/ the even more reliable Z-car engine and transmission?

See, you make a new policy and the track lawyers start looking for loopholes right away!

Actually, a Volvo or Saab with Nissan L or VG engine would get zero laps on general principle, regardless of the Zero For Zs rule.

Track lawyer?  No, that would make me smarter.  Track scrounger would be more accurate

Hmm, considering a NisSAAB 900ZX then.
I see no way this plan could possibly fail...

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: Z equals Zero

MurileeMartin wrote:
FJ40Jim wrote:

Would the "Z gets a Zero" policy apply to a reliable euro vehicle (like a volvo 240DL or a Saab 900S) were repowered w/ the even more reliable Z-car engine and transmission?

See, you make a new policy and the track lawyers start looking for loopholes right away!

Actually, a Volvo or Saab with Nissan L or VG engine would get zero laps on general principle, regardless of the Zero For Zs rule.

Is there a worse combo than a SAAB with Datsun running gear?  There might be some equivalently awful swaps out there, but few that could be demonstrably worse.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: Z equals Zero

Put an MR2 drivetrain in the back of a Z or vice versa.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

46 (edited by Fish 2009-10-28 01:14 PM)

Re: Z equals Zero

Its very possible for a Z to do well. We will prove this. I know its "what if" but at Reno this year we finished day 1 in 7th place and were upto 5th place with an HOUR to go in the race only 5 laps off the lead, then the Z curse hit decided it didnt like its rods anymore.

Houston we had 0 major engine problems and had downtime with a stupid problem that should have been fixed before the race, a driveshaft u-joint cost us 3 hours.

We will be back in January in Phoenix to prove that a Z can win.

Oh ya did I mention that we are racing with an AUTOMATIC lol. I guess we are crazy!

Re: Z equals Zero

a whole lot of problems that come up during the race are driver induced,....... if you hit stuff, overrev the engine, don't play nice with the gearbox and/or clutch,... then you are going to pay.

Granted; some cars/engines/drivetrains are more forgiving than others.

The Z can do just fine,..... that fact that it has not been done yet means nothing.

Re: Z equals Zero

yamato wrote:

a whole lot of problems that come up during the race are driver induced,....... if you hit stuff, overrev the engine, don't play nice with the gearbox and/or clutch,... then you are going to pay.

The clutch is already hotter than Hell after 3 hours of racing. Not shifting right and slipping the clutch only makes it worse. Fine time to learn how to shift without using the clutch.

Any paddle shiftter cars for $500?

Re: Z equals Zero

So, Murilee and Johnny both know that I have a 240Z sitting here at the shop and I'm not afraid of LSX swaps...  seems to me  Z equals Zero is an invitation to extend my Lemons car fleet.

   Let me get this straight:

       Closed hood
       No Questions
       You will not look under the car
       Zero penalty laps.
       No Quesitons

     This is a loophole I can drive through with tires spinning....  Sweet

   Where's Clint, we've got to start building!

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Z equals Zero

Phil has certainly said he'd like to see a V8 Z in this post and others.

A guy in the Carolinas offered me an LS V8 too.

Maybe I should do the 5.0 after all.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z