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Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

gullzjr wrote:
Marc wrote:

*expletive* YEAH!
the shaft fits!

Get to yell that often????

i know exactly where you're going with this... but yeah, i do yell that often. it's neat when you mate parts that don't belong together and they just fit.

like the V8 audi using the volvo 240d bell housing in a porsche 944. that kind of stuff just makes me giddy.

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Awesome to things coming together for this project. Can't wait to be side by side with it on the track.

12. Gingerman , Heroic Fix award
10/12 Autobahn, 51st overall.
Team Apocalyptic Racing
1978 Ecotec Celica.

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Marc wrote:

i think the supersonic aspect of things really changes everything. air starts behaving really weird at those speeds.

but, 6131CFM is the intake of a 4000HP motor give or take a couple hundred. and that number checks out based on the mass flow rates given in the actual documents also.

that's asking for a muffler that can deal with 1/2 of this exhaust at full throttle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVXEGul0uRQ

26,000CFM is a metric shit ton of air. keep in mind, a turbine pumps it's cooling air also. not just it's combustion air. that's why it's so much air.

the big thing at the front of this engine bay is the intake: http://i1.8000vueltas.com/2011/12/c12_0603_05z+1963_chrysler_turbine_car+engine.jpg and that thing is less than half the horsepower of my turbine.

I'm not picturing the Back to the Future DeLorean time machine... In reverse.

http://paulaubin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/back-to-the-future-delorean.jpg

It might present some visibility concerns...

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Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
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104

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

nice. part of the stuff used on the time machine is a T58 turbine wheel smile

I did a bit of further designing and parts ordering. I found a good way to avoid having to weld onto the spline shaft. i ordered a female spline mate that matches. it arrived today and it even fits! so the connection will be done by a loose spline stub

the female spline will get welded onto a flange to mimic the Chevy crankshaft bolt pattern. the flange will be machined after welding to prevent misalignment.

the female stub will have two ball bearings on it to handle any loads presented by the weight of the torque converter.

this significantly reduces the number of critical custom parts. all the power of the turbine still goes through my welds, but on a 2" diameter which is normal for a driveshaft which puts up to way more torque and I've never had an issue with.

i got suckered into helping someone move this weekend but i'll still try to get the plate made with what's left of my weekend.

so who here knows about chevys? what's the bellhousing bolt pattern on the 250cubic inch I6? what about the crankshaft? it would save me time to have both of these drawings up front.

105 (edited by Marc 2013-02-17 07:47 PM)

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

got a few hours in this weekend. i admit it does not look like a whole heck of a lot, but it's something.

i made this piece:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase4/IMG_0179.JPG

it fits on top of the splined shaft output that matches the helicopter engine:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase4/IMG_0178.JPG

it makes the helicopter engine look like the back of a small block chevy crank: (specifically, the old style crank with the 2 piece seal and the larger bolt pattern on it.)
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase4/IMG_0176.JPG

the whole lot is sealed off by the seal on the left from a 1990's 4 runner front axle inner seal and a pair of the bearings on the right from some industrial application that is rated for 8000RPM and more load than is sane. they don't really make low load rated bearings in that inner diameter.
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase4/IMG_0181.JPG

both bearings fit between the shoulder and the snap ring. i just need to make the carrier for the whole thing now, cut the shaft to the correct length and add a snap ring on the splined shaft so it does not wander into other parts of the engine. but mostly the splined shaft will be loose between two female splines.

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Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

has anyone found a listing with crankshaft seal diameters? I'm thinking of the current part stackup and i'm not entirely happy with having to put the seal in like a wheel hub. it makes assembly/disasembly a pain in the rear.

I need a seal about 4.5-5" in ID.

Thanks!

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

I hate that your site (and mine) are blocked by our corporate overlords in IT, Marc.

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
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Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Marc wrote:

has anyone found a listing with crankshaft seal diameters? I'm thinking of the current part stackup and i'm not entirely happy with having to put the seal in like a wheel hub. it makes assembly/disasembly a pain in the rear.

I need a seal about 4.5-5" in ID.

Thanks!

That seal size is dang close the the rear main seal of a 5.9 Cummins diesel...

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing -> Torque Junkies
86ish VW GTI...now with TDI Powah!

109

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

well, i can't look up a big list, but rock auto lets me see the specs on one at a time. looking up the 99 dodge 2500 with the cummins in it, i see something that may just fit the bill!

SKF Part # 51172   Width=.571"; Shaft=5.098"; Outside diameter=5.9230"; Bore=5.905IN

I'll go check today to see if the OD on the flange is at least 5.098 still.

Thanks!

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

This could be a totally dumb idea, since I'm no turbine guru - but to move the car around wherever the jet blast wouldn't be safe, could you use the starter motor to spin the turbine up to cranking rpm (assuming you have a way to disable the fuel/spark)? Since it's hooked to an auto tranny, you wouldn't need any speed control of the starter motor - just let it spin the turbine up to full cranking rpm, and use the car's brakes to control the 'creep'. Turbine starter motors are usually pretty burly, hopefully the cranking rpm is higher than the TQ stall speed smile From what I recall, it's the spin-up that takes the most battery current/power, running at speed isn't so bad on the starter battery... Then when you want to light off the turbine, it would already be spinning at cranking RPM so you could just turn on the spark/fuel yikes

Eric

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Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Serow225 wrote:

This could be a totally dumb idea, since I'm no turbine guru - but to move the car around wherever the jet blast wouldn't be safe, could you use the starter motor to spin the turbine up to cranking rpm (assuming you have a way to disable the fuel/spark)? Since it's hooked to an auto tranny, you wouldn't need any speed control of the starter motor - just let it spin the turbine up to full cranking rpm, and use the car's brakes to control the 'creep'. Turbine starter motors are usually pretty burly, hopefully the cranking rpm is higher than the TQ stall speed smile From what I recall, it's the spin-up that takes the most battery current/power, running at speed isn't so bad on the starter battery... Then when you want to light off the turbine, it would already be spinning at cranking RPM so you could just turn on the spark/fuel yikes

Eric

on the starter alone the turbine will only spin about 20% of it's speed, but at that speed it puts out way less than 20% exhaust gases since there is no expansion inside the motor. i doubt the car would creep on the starter.

my plan was simply to point the exhaust appropriately and possibly even have a valve to close off one side of the exhaust when pulling into the pits.. alternately we'll just push it when it comes to problematic areas.

but yes, it is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

So, no lake pipes, then?

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
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Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Racin_G73 wrote:

So, no lake pipes, then?

I was thinking maybe semi-style 'smoke stacks' up through the trunk!

114

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

it'll probably still be lake pipes. i think i can use a venturi to pull in enough additional air to bring the exhaust temp down to a resonable level.

115

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

I was thinking about the exhaust issue a couple weeks back.  My main concern would be around someone making a mess fueling their car.  Even if you are careful you can't always tell that someone else just wasn't and spilled gas right where your exhaust will be blowing.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
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116

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

BoB wrote:

I was thinking about the exhaust issue a couple weeks back.  My main concern would be around someone making a mess fueling their car.  Even if you are careful you can't always tell that someone else just wasn't and spilled gas right where your exhaust will be blowing.

yup, that's why the lake pipes works great on this car. the nova fills from the rear of the car out of the jet exhaust as the car drives away.

117

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Over the past couple weeks I have read all the way through the radial MR2 build and the start of the turbine build. Fun stuff! I might be very tempted to drive up from Bloomington and offer what help I can next time you find yourself in a time crunch...

I do have one concern about the current state of things. I know you are not all that friendly with automatic transmissions, and I have not seen a pic of the bearing carrier for the "crank". Have you thought about the thrust from the torque converter? They usually have full line pressure routed into them, IIRC a THM400 can have several hundred pounds of force pushing on the crank. I think the THM350 has a smaller shaft giong into the torque converter, but it is still someting to consider when setting up the bearings.

Thanks for all the entertainment!

118

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

oh, that's interesting. the pressure from the torque converter did not occur to me at all.

the break in the build is not because i don't want to move forward, i just moved houses about 5 weeks ago and i need to get my stuff back in order before continuing. but fear not, the new house will soon have more shop space for better projects. but there are little things to take care of first, plus i have to sell my old house.

Shameless plug, does anyone want to buy a 1326sq.ft. house with 3bedroom, 2bath, 1010sq.ft. garage with all sorts of 220/110v drops and even compressed air ran into the walls? https://maps.google.com/maps?q=3329+Cil … .18,,0,1.7  you can tell which one is mine, it's the one with two MR2's, an escort, an explorer and a wrx in the driveway smile
I'm looking for $155k, backs to woods and has decent privacy. even has a sprinkler system so you can focus on the cars instead of lawn maintenance (sprinkler was after google truck went through). it's even had a WWII radial engine powered MR2 built in there!

back to tech, i'm planning on using two bearings back to back to handle the load. you can see it if you scroll up to post #105 ( or click here: http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/Airpl … G_0181.JPG ) the bearings are #6211 (mcmaster: 5972K113)  they are a deep groove ball bearing and while there is no rating written on there, most ball bearings are good to between 25 and 50% of their radial capacity in the axial direction. if we assume that the axial load will all get taken by one bearing (likely) it still has a 2500lb axial load capability minimum. they will also be lubricated with jet oil which is a great coolant.

that is very good to know, it did not occur to me that the torque converter would push on the crank like that, but it makes sense now that you mention it.

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

If you talk to guys who drag race high HP V8s with automatics, some of them have issues with crank walk and thrust surface wear from all that torque converter pressure. I've heard there's a mod to reduce the thrust force somewhat, but I'm not into drag racing myself, so I don't know much about it, but I know people who know.

Former chief proprietor and lead bad idea generator of Binford "More Power" Racing, 2010-2013: humbly self-proclaimed the best Chevy Beretta in Lemons history.

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

I was pointed to your radial build thread from the Miatabusa epic.  I read every post, then every post of both your turbine threads.

Just registered so I could follow along, I'd hate to miss any updates!

Add me to the very long list of your fans, intensely interested in what you're doing with this project.

121

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Syscrush wrote:

I was pointed to your radial build thread from the Miatabusa epic.  I read every post, then every post of both your turbine threads.

Just registered so I could follow along, I'd hate to miss any updates!

Add me to the very long list of your fans, intensely interested in what you're doing with this project.

Thanks,

and sorry about the lack of updates recently, I still haven't sold my old house so this project is on hold until that happens. but hopefully it'll sell sometime soon and finances will be freed up from paying two mortgages.

Marc

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Marc wrote:

Thanks,

and sorry about the lack of updates recently, I still haven't sold my old house so this project is on hold until that happens. but hopefully it'll sell sometime soon and finances will be freed up from paying two mortgages.

Marc

I don't think you owe anyone any apologies. smile

Good luck with the sale of your house.  Maybe prospective buyers are turned off by the persistent smell of radial-filtered oil seeped into the garage floor. smile

123

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Syscrush wrote:
Marc wrote:

Thanks,

and sorry about the lack of updates recently, I still haven't sold my old house so this project is on hold until that happens. but hopefully it'll sell sometime soon and finances will be freed up from paying two mortgages.

Marc

I don't think you owe anyone any apologies. smile

Good luck with the sale of your house.  Maybe prospective buyers are turned off by the persistent smell of radial-filtered oil seeped into the garage floor. smile

thankfully no, there's only one stain on the garage door from when i started the radial with the exhaust pointed towards it... OOPS smile

i borrowed an airless sprayer and put two coats of oil based primer/stain blocker down in the garage and then a fresh coat of paint. you can't tell anything of what has taken place there smile

besides, how many other sub-division homes do they think they'll find with 1000sq.ft. garages? once the right buyer comes along, they'll snap it right up. but obviously it only appeals to a small subset of the public shopping for a home.

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

Marc wrote:
Syscrush wrote:
Marc wrote:

Thanks,

and sorry about the lack of updates recently, I still haven't sold my old house so this project is on hold until that happens. but hopefully it'll sell sometime soon and finances will be freed up from paying two mortgages.

Marc

I don't think you owe anyone any apologies. smile

Good luck with the sale of your house.  Maybe prospective buyers are turned off by the persistent smell of radial-filtered oil seeped into the garage floor. smile

thankfully no, there's only one stain on the garage door from when i started the radial with the exhaust pointed towards it... OOPS smile

i borrowed an airless sprayer and put two coats of oil based primer/stain blocker down in the garage and then a fresh coat of paint. you can't tell anything of what has taken place there smile

besides, how many other sub-division homes do they think they'll find with 1000sq.ft. garages? once the right buyer comes along, they'll snap it right up. but obviously it only appeals to a small subset of the public shopping for a home.

Yeah, only the smart buyers know that the real value of the house is in the garage.  Real Estate 101

Ryan

Looks Good On Paper Racing
#314 V8 E30 Submarine

125

Re: airplane powered car, with the correct engine this time.

so this project is still mechanically on hold till the other house sells, but that does not mean i haven't been spending time thinking about it.

one thing has come up and i'm hoping someone here may be an expert and can answer my question.

i finally figured out what belts top fuel dragsters use for their superchargers, gates does make them but here's the twist why i could not find the documentation. gates makes them for a company called RCD Engineering (https://rcdengineering.com/). they spec a few changes to the materials in the belts and charge about 10x what they do for the normal belts, but from what i can tell, they are rated for about 1000hp through the belt at pitch speeds of about 300ft/s (about 200mph).

the large limiting factor on these things appears to be heat buildup. that's probably why the back of these belts is ribbed to have more surface area and to move more air.

the big top fuel guys appear to replace the belts every 3rd or 4th pass, but they can't afford any failures the fact that they are reusing a $400 belt at all means it has to have some seriously good lifespan.

so the question is, does anyone have any kind of an inside contact to be able to help determine what the probability of one of these belts breaking at the 300hp level when pushed for hours instead of seconds at a time.

I'm debating building a different car that passes all it's power through one of these belts for the drive just to test out the belt before hooking it up as part of the drivetrain.