Topic: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENUXhhV21aU

(Taken from the #508 Half Off Racing 533i)

Our driver reported that the shemozzle was set off by someone spinning or braking into T1 (white smoke), which caused the Bunny car to juke left, launching Eyesore.  Whee!

I got passed at high speed by both Eyesore and Bunny later on, so they don't appear to have been too badly damaged?

Half-Off Racing #506 (Driver) -- yes, yet another E28 BMW...

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

wow.

'96 Dodge Neon, a.k.a. "Neon Pope" - 20 Lemons races - 1 Class B win

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140423034814/roblox-apocalypse-rising/images/2/2a/Anchorman-well-that-escalated-quickly.jpg

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Eyesore's front right suspension had some damage but they fixed it pretty quickly after that incident, and got back on track to finish the race.

-Chris
El Dorado E36 Lemons Camper @blackironracing
Viccup (P71 x F250) GRM build thread
Volvos & Roadmaster @cflodailyturismo  CFloMoTo

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Rud wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENUXhhV21aU

(Taken from the #508 Half Off Racing 533i)

Our driver reported that the shemozzle was set off by someone spinning or braking into T1 (white smoke), which caused the Bunny car to juke left, launching Eyesore.  Whee!

I got passed at high speed by both Eyesore and Bunny later on, so they don't appear to have been too badly damaged?

Eyesore had a 57 minute stop at some point, this may have been the reason.

I'm not seeing anything happening further up the track in the turn, certainly nothing that would have necessitated an abrupt move like that.  To me, it looks like the Rabbit closed on the Camaro in front of it, and did a quick turn left trying to avoid it.

bs

6 (edited by casadelshawn 2014-09-15 12:43 PM)

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

I was hoping someone would have on-board of this. Our car is the Rabbit. Our driver's (Matt) story is that he was moving over (to the right) to give the Eyesore car room to get by, but the Camaro locked up his brakes and he had nowhere to go but left. We thought maybe that someone had cut down on the Camaro or there was a mechanical problem, but it's clear that he just saw the yellow on the inside of turn 1 (screen left), panicked, and grenaded the brakes.

I talked to the Eyesore driver afterwards; while not thrilled, he was OK physically and was wondering what had happened as well.

Our driver went too far left to avoid the situation, but I think he made the right call in not putting our front bumper under the back of the Camaro's rear bumper. I'm bummed that Eyesore got caught up in it, but to me, this is a perfect place to argue against the "OK to race to a yellow flag" rule. The Eyesore driver told me that he had seen the yellow and thought that he'd have plenty of time to complete the pass before getting to it. I agree that if everything had gone well, he could have made it happen, but this is Lemons. Nobody (our guy included) should have expected things to go that smoothly, especially with cars bunched up like that right before a flagstand with a yellow displayed.

I don't think we're 100% at fault; I think it's a racing incident that could have gone better or far worse. If our driver hadn't juked as far as he did, it wouldn't have been a problem. If the Camaro driver hadn't stood on his brakes, it wouldn't have been a problem. If Eyesore wasn't racing to the yellow, it wouldn't have been a problem.

I have offered Eyesore replacement parts and to have our driver wash the car or something. I'm mostly glad that the drivers are OK; I'm also sorta thrilled that there wasn't significant damage on our car (fender and tire are absolutely done).

I will also happily take input from other folks who were right there or who have watched the video; I think I have a pretty good idea as to what we can learn from this, but we always like to learn more.

TST, fool.

It's a Bunny.  With a pancake.  On its head.  Really, is it that tough?

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Can some explain "OK to race to a yellow flag"?  I thought if you see yellow you stop passing.

This was only my second Lemons, and the first time I was in a car that could actually pass, although not very often in the Spank Moke.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

rb92673 wrote:

Can some explain "OK to race to a yellow flag"?  I thought if you see yellow you stop passing.

Under the current yellow flag rules (as I understand them), it's a station to station yellow flag meaning you do not fall under the control of the yellow until you reach that station and do not exit the control of the yellow until you pass a station not displaying a yellow.  Technically, you can pass until you get to the station that is displaying the flag and if everyone was following the rule the same way, we'd be fine.  I understand why they went to that yellow flag interpretation because it made everything cut and dried for PUY.  The previous rule was that as soon as you saw the flag station displaying yellow, you were under the yellow.

Where this all falls apart is when someone sees the yellow in the distance and stands their car on it's nose.  Then you get what happened here.  Yes, the Rabbit moved too far left to dodge the Camaro unexpectedly stopping in the middle of the straight.  And yes, the frankenmiata took a leap of faith in thinking that all the Lemons drivers in between him and the yellow flag would actually do the expected.  Whoever spiked their brakes to start that mess is primarily at fault and then there are lesser degrees of fault with the decisions that followed.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

cheseroo wrote:
rb92673 wrote:

Can some explain "OK to race to a yellow flag"?  I thought if you see yellow you stop passing.

Under the current yellow flag rules (as I understand them), it's a station to station yellow flag meaning you do not fall under the control of the yellow until you reach that station and do not exit the control of the yellow until you pass a station not displaying a yellow.  Technically, you can pass until you get to the station that is displaying the flag and if everyone was following the rule the same way, we'd be fine.  I understand why they went to that yellow flag interpretation because it made everything cut and dried for PUY.  The previous rule was that as soon as you saw the flag station displaying yellow, you were under the yellow.

This understanding is correct.  You have until you actually REACH the flag station displaying the yellow to get that last pass (or two, or three) executed, but once you are past the station it is strictly conga-line until you pass a clear flag station.  That is what "race to the yellow" refers to.

The old rule, in effect just a couple years ago, was line-of-sight to the flag station, rather than reaching the flag station.  In many ways that was a better rule, but it was also one that's much harder to enforce and involves a lot of subjective judging.  The new rule allows for a more controlled, gradual transition to single-file, and leaves zero questions about where on the track the caution begins and ends.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

casadelshawn wrote:

I was hoping someone would have on-board of this.

<snip>

I will also happily take input from other folks who were right there or who have watched the video; I think I have a pretty good idea as to what we can learn from this, but we always like to learn more.

I'm the driver that was in #508 (the filming car) that saw all this go down.  I was hesitant to even post this because I didn't want to inflame anything, but sounds you guys worked it out at the track, and there's nothing to inflame.  Nice.

Interestingly, my memory says that there was tire smoke ahead from the Camaro stomping the brakes - but the video clearly shows otherwise.  (Stupid highly influenceable human memory!) 

However what doesn't come across well in the video is the feeling of "there's too much happening here..." that I had heading into T1.  It was clear that there was going to be a pucker moment, but I didn't know what would cause it until it happened.

A slow(er) car entering T1, the Camaro being overtaken by two quick cars while a third was just getting on track next to him, then the yellow (in a race where we had all been bitten by a million passing under yellow penalties the day before...) I think this was one of those perfect storm moments where no was was truly at fault.  Had there even been one fewer stressor, I bet Eyesore would have made the pass, and no one would have thought of this again.

Just my perspective from being on hand for the incident.

Chris

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

HalfOffRacing wrote:

I was hoping someone would have on-board of this.

<snip>

Just my perspective from being on hand for the incident.

Chris

Thank you, Chris. I'm glad you guys were there; as we all know, there are always multiple stories for every incident, and yes, human memory sucks. It's good to have it on camera so that we can all (hopefully) learn something from it.

TST, fool.

It's a Bunny.  With a pancake.  On its head.  Really, is it that tough?

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

HalfOffRacing wrote:

However what doesn't come across well in the video is the feeling of "there's too much happening here..." that I had heading into T1.  It was clear that there was going to be a pucker moment, but I didn't know what would cause it until it happened.

That's what surprised me about this situation. Eyesore (and most teams that win races) usually have drivers who have developed a sense of anticipation about these very situations and then take care to avoid them or at least always to leave an out.

However, if that's what you really felt going into that corner, pat yourself on the back for keeping your nose clean there. Plenty of people barrel right into those situations and then get frustrated in the Penalty Box because they "had nowhere to go."

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

casadelshawn wrote:

I was hoping someone would have on-board of this. Our car is the Rabbit. Our driver's (Matt) story is that he was moving over (to the right) to give the Eyesore car room to get by, but the Camaro locked up his brakes and he had nowhere to go but left. We thought maybe that someone had cut down on the Camaro or there was a mechanical problem, but it's clear that he just saw the yellow on the inside of turn 1 (screen left), panicked, and grenaded the brakes.

I talked to the Eyesore driver afterwards; while not thrilled, he was OK physically and was wondering what had happened as well.

Our driver went too far left to avoid the situation, but I think he made the right call in not putting our front bumper under the back of the Camaro's rear bumper. I'm bummed that Eyesore got caught up in it, but to me, this is a perfect place to argue against the "OK to race to a yellow flag" rule. The Eyesore driver told me that he had seen the yellow and thought that he'd have plenty of time to complete the pass before getting to it. I agree that if everything had gone well, he could have made it happen, but this is Lemons. Nobody (our guy included) should have expected things to go that smoothly, especially with cars bunched up like that right before a flagstand with a yellow displayed.

I don't think we're 100% at fault; I think it's a racing incident that could have gone better or far worse. If our driver hadn't juked as far as he did, it wouldn't have been a problem. If the Camaro driver hadn't stood on his brakes, it wouldn't have been a problem. If Eyesore wasn't racing to the yellow, it wouldn't have been a problem.

I have offered Eyesore replacement parts and to have our driver wash the car or something. I'm mostly glad that the drivers are OK; I'm also sorta thrilled that there wasn't significant damage on our car (fender and tire are absolutely done).

I will also happily take input from other folks who were right there or who have watched the video; I think I have a pretty good idea as to what we can learn from this, but we always like to learn more.

You're right - I was looking too far up the track, and not paying attention to the Camaro.

bs

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

rb92673 wrote:

Can some explain "OK to race to a yellow flag"?  I thought if you see yellow you stop passing.

This was only my second Lemons, and the first time I was in a car that could actually pass, although not very often in the Spank Moke.

The intent of the station to station rule is to prevent what seems to have happened here.  With line of site rules, too many morons were locking up their brakes when they saw a yellow flag, for fear of getting penalized.

The station to station rule is not really meant to encourage racing to the yellow flag, the intent is that if you have a pass in progress, then complete it safely rather than lock up your brakes.

Under either set of rules, there is no reason for a car with nobody in front of him to lock up his brakes when he sees a yellow flag come out.

bs

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

That's a great point, Eric. After a bunch of races you get better at "this smells like trouble" situations brewing in front of you and back off to see what plays out rather than becoming part of it. The fast, contending teams have to balance this instinct to stay out of trouble with the need to not be continually held up by heavy traffic situations where problems are most likely to occur. Cerveza probably does this better than just about any team I've ever seen slice through traffic. The Silver Errors - Ziegel Scheißhaus Racing Mercedes 190E on the east coast was/is extremely good at this, too. A positive side effect is that teams being passed appreciate being passed cleanly   and tend to give those guys racing room when they see them coming up behind them in their mirrors. In a split second the Eyesore driver must have decided the risk was worth it.

There's not much of a way to anticipate someone over braking when a new yellow flag comes out at the station in front of them, especially if their car is blocking your own view of the flag. Just let off the gas and waive your arm to the car behind you to make them aware... so much safer in most situations. Just very, very glad the Miata and Rabbit both stayed shiny side up in this case.

Bert One - 1981 Volvo 262c Bertone | Ernie - 1990 Nissan 240SX

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

That's NOO ORDINARY Rabbit!!!!
http://youtu.be/cCI18qAoKq4

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Someone did something similar to me. But, it was a spun car that we were all avoiding.  I went far left but the driver to my right took 2x the room he needed too quickly.  I sympathize because in the moment it is scary, especially if you don't have a ton of track time.   The incident to me looks like no real fault - EXCEPT... People who brake on yellow.  Yellow is a lift to the flag station.  People who brake hard are very dangerous, or thought they were passing the race leader with great skills until they realized the real reason. 

Race management is knowing why you are passing people, not just that you are...

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Thanks for the race to the yellow explanations.  It will allow me to adjust my driving style. 

When driving Spank's cars my goal out on the track was 1) don't hit anything or be in a place to be hit, 2) be obvious - telegraph my line and use point bys, 3) not blow up and 4) try and pass someone every once in a while.

I don't think I had to break for any yellows, but I would certainly lift before I got to the station.  When I saw someone flying up to me when I saw a yellow I would raise my hand.  In the same situation next time I will probably stay on the gas until I can get out of the racing line.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

as an owner of a former spank car, how'd number 4 work out? getting off the throttle when you see a yellow is not a /bad/ decision.

dead rabbit society: cultured 'n shit.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Not sure why everybody is assuming the Camero was slamming on his brakes.  Closing speeds of cars at turn one can be huge.  The Rabbit and the yellow car were closing at their normal turn 1 speeds, and the Camero as well.  But with the yellow coming out only feet down the track the Camero lifted, "maybe" hit the brakes a little, or a lot, but either way the rabbit was in trouble and that was doubled by the yellow car.  I have had to adjust my line many times in turn 1 to deal with much faster cars trying to "take" the apex.
Regarding the yellow flag rule.  It's not good either way.  I have had the flag come up just as I get to the station and lifted only to see cars behind me that probably couldn't even see it have to avoid me.
In my opinion, and I am sure few care, is that when you see the yellow, don't race.  It's a caution flag, not a race flag.  On the other hand I have come to yellows where you can see the reason, a car out in left field, and most drivers maintain speed because the danger is minimal.
Simply put, use your head, not your foot.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

MUSTANG 96 wrote:

Simply put, use your head, not your foot.

Best Lemons advice for EVERY situation!!

Peter St Pierre             #63 Hong Norrth "C" Supra
     5th Place: 2016 CMP Fall
     6th place: 2015 Autobahn 24 hour
     2nd place: 2014 CMP Fall : 17th place: 2014 CMP Southern Discomfort Spring

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

rb92673 wrote:

Thanks for the race to the yellow explanations.  It will allow me to adjust my driving style. 

When driving Spank's cars my goal out on the track was 1) don't hit anything or be in a place to be hit, 2) be obvious - telegraph my line and use point bys, 3) not blow up and 4) try and pass someone every once in a while.

I don't think I had to break for any yellows, but I would certainly lift before I got to the station.  When I saw someone flying up to me when I saw a yellow I would raise my hand.  In the same situation next time I will probably stay on the gas until I can get out of the racing line.

As the builder and owner of Spank's cars, I like THIS.

If I would amend it any, I'd say at first sight of a yellow flag: Step one establish your situation which includes checking mirrors. Decide whether to lift slightly or simply maintain speed. By no means is it appropriate in my eyes to "race to the yellow" or try to speed past one more car before the yellow. If you are alongside of a car you are in the midst of passing, take the safest option.

Usually my problem is the opposite-- people seeing a yellow flag up ahead and trying their damnedest to gun it past my Class C cars so they aren't stuck behind them for potentially long yellows.

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Spank wrote:

Usually my problem is the opposite-- people seeing a yellow flag up ahead and trying their damnedest to gun it past my Class C cars so they aren't stuck behind them for potentially long yellows.

Which is silly...they will still get stuck behind you if it is long yellow unless you pit.  It just means they gain 7/8th's of a lap before doing it but place themselves at the BACK of the clusterf&*^# that forms behind you.  Maybe on a track as long as this it does not happen but on the 2'ish mile tracks we race it invariably does.

I think TSOG said it best "My fastest laps are under yellow."

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Can I add not to creep around the track at 20mph during yellows?

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Thunderhill 2014: Eyesore "flies" around the track

Baron wrote:

Can I add not to creep around the track at 20mph during yellows?

Yes you can add it, but it won't stop noobs from doing it... or from grenading the brakes at the first hint of a yellow flag.

Peter St Pierre             #63 Hong Norrth "C" Supra
     5th Place: 2016 CMP Fall
     6th place: 2015 Autobahn 24 hour
     2nd place: 2014 CMP Fall : 17th place: 2014 CMP Southern Discomfort Spring