Topic: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

I have a suggestion. In an effort to encourage greater diversity and a true "equal opportunity" racing experience, why not introduce penalties to any team entering a super lame car such as a civic/crx, neon, miata, e30, toyota mr2/corolla, etc. Basically any car that has had 5+ of the same model entered in previous races.

Seriously, what is anyone proving with a civic entry? BORING!

Just another crappy BMW and moto-powered MR2: http://www.facebook.com/BlackIronRacing
Gnome money, Gnome problems. (RIP) http://www.facebook.com/MetroGnomeRacing

2 (edited by Spinnetti 2009-05-03 06:38 PM)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

I second that!

(Proposed to the powers that be previously, but they weren't to hip to it).

To update a bit - don't penalize the miata/e30/crx/integra crowd, just give laps to the weird stuff to even it up a bit.

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

The problem with that idea is that these types of cars are often the easiest to get for $500, and allow many teams to have some semblance of a budget.

I don't like the unoriginality factor more than anybody else, but its almost like punishing somebody for just showing up to the race, which wouldn't be too good for attendance i don't think.

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

What is up with trying to dictate or regulate other people's car choices?

Show up with a sub $500 car, drive the wheels off it, and have a good time.

To finish first, first you must finish. -Rick Mears
Pandamonium Racing

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

I've tried that and failed a couple times already! So now I just want to complain. wink

Its easier to complain and ask for rule changes than to make my own cars faster or more competitive!


Just thought I'd get this board started on some good smack talk.

Just another crappy BMW and moto-powered MR2: http://www.facebook.com/BlackIronRacing
Gnome money, Gnome problems. (RIP) http://www.facebook.com/MetroGnomeRacing

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

laz wrote:

What is up with trying to dictate or regulate other people's car choices?

Show up with a sub $500 car, drive the wheels off it, and have a good time.

Spoken like a true E30 driver.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Judge Jonny wrote:

Spoken like a true E30 driver.

guilty as charged smile

To finish first, first you must finish. -Rick Mears
Pandamonium Racing

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

We will be setting the bar higher on such cars when it comes to theme and decoration, and lame themes on Miatas and E30s will make us that much more likely to start adding laps for the kind of cheatin' we might normally let slide. So knock us out with your artistic dedication and/or redneck engineering skills... and woe be unto the E30, Miata, RX-7, Mustang, CRX, MR2, or Integra that shows up to the BS Inspection with a sorry-ass, 77-second rattle-can "theme" that was applied in the motel parking lot the night before.

So, if you're driving an E30, we suggest you follow the example of the Porcubimmer. Miata teams would do well to take some tips from the Scalawags, SR-71, and the Ghettocharged Frankenmiata.

9 (edited by Troy 2009-05-04 09:33 AM)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

I think this debate will go on forever.  How do the Anti-E30 folks ever get to race?  They are clearly in violation of the whiner rule.

2.4: Whiner Eligibility. Whiners are not eligible to compete. If you believe that you might be a whiner, please check with a domestic partner, guardian, or health-care professional before getting the rest of your team kicked the hell out of the race.

I don't race a BMW but don't mind racing against them, Miatas, Integras or Mustangs.  To me, Lemons more or less is a war of the wrenchers.  Who can get the best deals and put a shine on an otherwise mechanical and or cosmetic turd.  Most of these guys are going to try and start with a car that has a chance of being competitive.

Every once in a while you get a car that is obscure and competitive.  The Gnome is a mechanically marvelous nightmare.  A plunger for a seal, that's just awesome!  The FrankenMiata is crazy too.

The reality is the growth of Lemons makes it hard to have a truly unique ride.  With 10 races and up to 100 cars per race, that 1000 entries.  There are only so many old French piles of crap, AMC's and truly odd cars to go around.  Most of those cars went to the crusher many years ago.

The other consideration is the time and effort put into these builds.  Until you have actually been heavily involved in building a car with your own hands and footed the tab, shut your trap.  It's a monumental load of work and it's still pricey.  These $500 crap cans often times cost $3000+ to build.  That's a lot of money to spend on a car to race it once. 

Here's a link to our build cost: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0Ob-ScC0CK … 20Cost.pdf

Once they are built, they still break.  The more rare your car is, the harder it is going to be to keep it on the track.  There are time and money economics going on here.  You've only got so much time and money to go around and we are restricted by the $500 rule.  I've seen plenty of cars run one race and they're done because of the time and money involved in keeping these cars going.  We built our car with the intention of racing it for a long time.  These cars see way more abuse than most SCCA and NASA cars and they are on a $500 budget!

The LS400 from Houston 10/08 basically blew a head gasket and more or less ruined the motor.  It's an expensive and time consuming repair.  I hate to see all there efforts rotting away in the guys back yard.  I've offered to help them fix the car but it ain't looking good for the Lexus.  They have a kid on the way.  By, by to the time and money.

The CRX that got the metal shavings punishment is also down for the count.  I haven't heard about that punishment since Houston 10/08.  Maybe the powers that be decided it was a bit harsh.  The 280ZX they got it is still racing though.

I suggest all the non-E30 whiners get an E30 build punishment.  If you guys think it's so easy to build and race an E30 shut up and build one.  I doubt it's the walk in the park it's made out to be.  Race it and pass it along to a less mechanically inclined team. 

It ain't like our beloved crooked Judges race a veggie burning Volvo diesel, they've got a V8.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

I would like to point out that without meaning to, you've all come to an agreement here:

- Lemons is about originality and creativity, and lots of people are sick of seeing the same old car with no creativity effort
- It's hard to build a Lemons car, any Lemons car

So, build whatever car you can find.  Just make your theme cool!  If your theme is 'hey we pulled this bmw 2002 from the weeds and left the weeds intact, that's cool.  It takes a lot of effort to do that.  If you theme is 'hey we pulled this bmw 325 from the weeds and left the weeds intact', you're going to quickly find out what the wrath of the BS judges can be.

This, coming from a guy that drives a very competitive MR2....with a large windmill, solar panel and electric supercharger bolted on various body panels (and a protector spotted owl flying over head)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Effef wrote:

The problem with that idea is that these types of cars are often the easiest to get for $500, and allow many teams to have some semblance of a budget.

I don't like the unoriginality factor more than anybody else, but its almost like punishing somebody for just showing up to the race, which wouldn't be too good for attendance i don't think.

I second this (third?)!  You guys sure are whining!  Our civic couldn't finish the '08 Arse Freeze before throwing a rod.  What more do you want out of us than to get out of your way?  ;-)

We went with the civic because it was cheap, like us.   Our TOTAL budget is ~$3k, including hotel and fuel, etc.  We've replaced our blown motor for Reno, but who knows how long that will last?  We did a so-so job with our theme last time (better than many, much less than the best).  We're upping the anty and putting a lot more into our theme this time as opposed to putting that time into resurrecting a steam powered antique (though that would be fun!)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

You could enter a Taurus SHO like we do and blow the motor or transmission, crap is crap, race hard and have fun!!!!!!!

Team Zip-tie!
92 Taurus SHO #37

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

moneypit wrote:

You could enter a Taurus SHO like we do and blow the motor or transmission, crap is crap, race hard and have fun!!!!!!!

The SHO is always an excellent Lemons choice.

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

From our perspective, bringing an E30 is better than not signing up at all. We want to encourage people to bring unique stuff but don't necessarily want to actively discourage people to bring mainstream stuff--everybody is welcome. That said, all of us at Lemons HQ are weird old car guys, and we admit that we get more excited when we see weird/old/cool stuff.

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

I think you have a much better shot at getting into the race with something weird as well, something to think about when choosing a car.

Team Oly Express
Current car - 1964.5 Plymouth Barracuda, Former car - Size Does Matter 1967 Plymouth Fury
07 IOE Winner Thunderhill, 12 IOE Winner Sears Pointless
https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Team- … 4609354407

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Getting into the race - sure.  Making past the first hour, not so much.  How much fun is it for everyone (drivers, course workers, organizers, etc.) if 3/4 of the field is in the garages working on thier cars?  With costs as they are, is it really worth $5000 to bring a Citroen DS to the grid that might not make it past the first driver change? 

Whenever I poll my team, they always come back with that they want to be on track as much as possible and they don't want to drive a rolling chicane of a car.  Both of which are possible with the exact cars that you say are "super lame."

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

So get creative and stuff something reliable into something weird. Say for instance 2.3 turbo Ford into a Peugeot. Best (worst?) of both worlds.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

18 (edited by Jer 2009-05-05 05:33 AM)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

What do you think of a Citation?

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

RobL wrote:

With costs as they are, is it really worth $5000 to bring a Citroen DS to the grid that might not make it past the first driver change?

105% worth it

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

20 (edited by Spinnetti 2009-05-05 04:38 AM)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Judge Jonny wrote:
RobL wrote:

With costs as they are, is it really worth $5000 to bring a Citroen DS to the grid that might not make it past the first driver change?

105% worth it

In fact, I was thinkin, where the heck can I come up with a DS under $500? I love that car.. that's all we had when I was going up. Took european delivery on our last on in 1971 in Paris - a silver DS21 Pallas smile

Actually, to paraphrase an earlier comment, I still think: don't penalize the ordinary, reward the extraordinary! I plan on building a monster type car if I can pull it off for the budget, and don't care what penalties we get -.. its just for the fun and the engineering exercise, and those who complain about the penalties are the whiners!  smile

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Judge Jonny wrote:
RobL wrote:

With costs as they are, is it really worth $5000 to bring a Citroen DS to the grid that might not make it past the first driver change?

105% worth it

That's really easy to say.  Even if I wanted to, I don't think that I can convince 3 other guys to "invest" about 40 hours of work and $2000 into the car, travel, and safety gear each into a car/weekend where they probably won't get to drive on the track.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Lemons Economics:

This thread is evolving into something a bit different.

Spectator Entry = $20 a day, $30 weekend
Driver Cost = $500ish in personal safety gear
                  + $100 driver entry
                  + $500/# drivers  car fee
                  + $??? car cost (a crap load)
          Total = $500 on up may well exceed $1000 just for the car

In the first Houston race in October 2008, 4 cars died during the initial yellow lapping session.  More than 1/2 the cars died Saturday.  By mid-day Sunday we were down to about 30 out of 80 cars.

It is not uncommon for teams to have drivers never get to drive.  So now you've paid the fee to drive and only get to watch.  These cases seem to be declining, teams are seeing the value in reliability.  Most folks would rather watch for $30 than $500+.  I did not get a chance to drive my own car in February, we broke stuff.  In October we all got to drive.  This is REAL racing and it's hard on cars, $500 or otherwise.

So while a Peugot or Citron would be a really cool car, it's a huge up hill battle.  Sure some teams may score a sweet car deal that's an easy build but for the most part all builds are an uphill battle even E30's, Integra's, Miata's or whatever.  A Fiat, Peugot or Citron is like climbing Everest.

For us to rerun our car starts at about $2000 a race.  I/we look at a lot of things and try to make the car as good as we can for each race.  If something happens and we are out of the race, we are out the $2000.  That $50 part you didn't replace that put you out of the race in the first hour really cost you $2050.  Remember, you can watch for $30.  We strive for as much reliability as we can get which leads to more seat time, a better finishing position too and way more fun for the $$$.

In the February race in Houston, we started with about 100 cars and most of them were still out there at lunchtime on Sunday.  Then they started to drop, happened to us.  We lost another clutch.  I think a lot of teams are grasping the fact that reliability is priceless whether your racing Lemons, SCCA or Nasa.

Things I see happen that are just stupid:

1. Anything covered under safety failing.  It's an unlimited budget, make sure all that stuff is perfect!  Sure it's an unlimited budget but you still have to pay for it, suck it up and pay for it.  Racing on crappy tires and questionable brakes is an all-in gamble.  You could lose your car, get injured, injure someone else or their car.  Maybe there's no accident, you just end up on the sidelines with a blow out, a bad caliper or brake line or something.  Now you're in the cheap seats over something you could have and should have replaced.

2. Crappy cooling systems.  Racing with a leaky radiator or other cooling system problems, vintage belts or hoses are like playing Russian roulette with a single shooter.  It would be a miracle if it didn't bite you in the ass.  Even if it puts you over the $500 limit, I would suggest it.  You risk ruining your whole car and becoming a spectator over this too.  The cooling system took out the LS400 in 10/08 and it hasn't returned.  They probably could have fixed it reasonably before the race, now it needs a motor.

I think it's cool to see crazy cars like Peugots and Citrons.  They completely throw any form of rational thinking right out the window.  I guess it shows the limits of my insanity. 

For all the guys strongly encouraging this, I say "Put your money where your mouth is."  Haven't you guys run the Volvo enough, take on the Citron.  I'd love to read about Jonny and Phil personally turning a Citron or Fiat into a Lemons racer.  They can chronicle their build on their respective blog sites.  None of that cheater crap like some race shop custom fabbed and installed a roll cage for them either.  They can either pay market value for the work or even better, do it themselves. 

What I am getting at is, for all the guys encouraging you to spend your $3000 - $5000 for a 10 lap circus, talk/text's cheap!  For those of you willing to take on a crazy car like that, aside from bonus points, maybe you should get a free psychological evaluation.

I encourage everyone wanna be racer to build a car and race in Lemons.  Stop dreaming and start wrenching.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Troy wrote:

For all the guys strongly encouraging this, I say "Put your money where your mouth is."  Haven't you guys run the Volvo enough, take on the Citron.  I'd love to read about Jonny and Phil personally turning a Citron or Fiat into a Lemons racer.  They can chronicle their build on their respective blog sites.  None of that cheater crap like some race shop custom fabbed and installed a roll cage for them either.  They can either pay market value for the work or even better, do it themselves.

Jonny and I are no longer on the V8olvo team- it's too much work judging and/or writing about the race for us to have any energy left to wrench and/or drive (though I remain the team's artistic consultant and will be doing a writeup on the new theme). We recuse ourselves from our judging duties when it shows up in BS inspection or the penalty box and let Jay handle it (and, unfortunately, he gets the team's judicial bribes as well).

As for money-meeting-mouth, here we've got a $100 Volvo that was turned into what amounts to a Fox Mustang (same suspension design, same weight) via thousands of gallons of sweat and god-knows-how-many weekends shot through the head. Why not just start out with a Fox Mustang and avoid all those junkyard trips and endless fabrication headaches? Or, given that John "Evil Genius" Pagel- owner of a Miata shop and builder of that so-called "cheater crap" cage- was a team member, why not run a Miata? Well, hell, where's the fun in that?

That said, my personal preference isn't to see a track full of Citroën CXs, Lancia Scorpions, and Citation X-11s (though I'd be overjoyed to see such a sight). No, I want to see a track full of full-on art cars! The day we see the Sashimi Tabernacle Choir duking it out with a Nash Metropolitan for the checkered flag will be the greatest day in 24 Hours Of Lemons history!

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

Keep in mind, all you racers feeling feeling a deep sense of persecution because we're picking on your car, that the vast majority of E30s, Miatas, RX-7s, Mustangs, et al get zero penalty laps during the BS inspection. We do, however, scrutinize such cars much more closely than we would, say, a Kia Sephia or diesel Golf.

As for BMWs... why, we love Lemons BMWs! Think of all those $300 E24s, E23s, and E21s out there!

25 (edited by Jer 2009-05-05 11:48 AM)

Re: Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties?

MurileeMartin wrote:

That said, my personal preference isn't to see a track full of Citroën CXs, Lancia Scorpions, and Citation X-11s (though I'd be overjoyed to see such a sight).

Hmmm.  Well, you'll see the Citation X-11 in Stafford.  What an absolute piece of crap it is, too.  Morons R Us for bringing it to a race...

To get that out of our system later in the year, we'll be bringing a bone stock POS Miata to Nelson Ledges...

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)