Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Isn't that the reason for a "firewall" between the engine and the driver? Saying it's over the head of the driver is like saying that the fuel is INCHES from the driver's legs in the Duff car! It's technically true, but there is a sheet of metal between the driver and the fuel.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

rmcdaniels wrote:

Isn't that the reason for a "firewall" between the engine and the driver? Saying it's over the head of the driver is like saying that the fuel is INCHES from the driver's legs in the Duff car! It's technically true, but there is a sheet of metal between the driver and the fuel.

But there is that gravity thing that will try to push the fuel into the driver compartment.

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

rmcdaniels wrote:

Isn't that the reason for a "firewall" between the engine and the driver?

Yes, but the rules call for an "unbroken firewall" between the engine and the cockpit. "If you can see through it, we want it closed up."

For a roof-mounted engine, this requirement conflicts with the requirement that the front side windows be removed or left open, so my guess is the whole thing is just a no-go. Admittedly the windows wouldn't be in direct line of sight with the overhead engine, but given the foreseeable likely behavior of flammable liquids in such an arrangement, HQ probably still wouldn't be happy with such openings. I suppose you could offer to build a box enclosing the generator, but it still sounds pretty iffy, particularly since now you'd have a place for a fuel leak to form a substantial pool before calling attention to itself.

Besides, adding a generator would transform the car into a hybrid, so the short answer is that under rule 3.H.8 you'd need to contact HQ in advance anyway.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

ROFL, we've been in contact with HQ from day 1 on this build and have stayed in continuous contact with them throughout.

Generator on the roof will fail for other reasons, but fuel isn't one of them. A firewall is a firewall. The idea that the engine must not be visible from anywhere other than the cockpit is ridiculous. The rules state it clearly, an unbroken wall between the engine and the cockpit. There are plenty of cars that I can see the engine from outside the car.

Gravity is irrelevant, on all cars the fuel is under pressure. Any breach will cause it to spray in any direction. You just don't want it to spray on you, hence the unbroken firewall. There are cars with pressurized fuel lines in the cockpit with the driver, which, from a fuel leak perspective, is much worse than fuel on the roof. Read about the COTA fuel leak.

All that said, we may still bolt it to the roof for testing and maybe for the parade, just because it will be spectacular, but it will probably end up somewhere else, either in the passenger seat area or more likely in the back of the battery box, just because that's easiest. That will make it rear engined, so we'll have to put a piece of Lexan behind the driver.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

205

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

rmcdaniels wrote:

Gravity is irrelevant, on all cars the fuel is under pressure. Any breach will cause it to spray in any direction. You just don't want it to spray on you, hence the unbroken firewall. There are cars with pressurized fuel lines in the cockpit with the driver, which, from a fuel leak perspective, is much worse than fuel on the roof.

Agreed, which is why I was puzzled how the Porsche (the one with the GM 4.3 V6, pitted next to us at NCM) passed tech with their fuel cell basically sitting in the rear hatch area.  Yes, it was held in place by some stout angle, but all the high pressure lines were exposed with no barrier between them and the cockpit.  Having seen a car roll down pit road completely engulfed in fire at Daytona, in which the driver dove out the window while HE was also on fire, that was some scary shit.  He had a high pressure fuel line rupture, with no bulk head, and it sprayed him and the interior with fuel.  Nomex is fire retardant, but if you dowse it with fuel, all bets are off.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
#411
'93 Acura Integra

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

rmcdaniels wrote:

Gravity is irrelevant, on all cars the fuel is under pressure. Any breach will cause it to spray in any direction.

Gravity is quite relevant for those of us running carburetors. If the line running from my car's tank to its engine compartment springs a leak, it's the hydraulic head that's worrisome. On the plus side, at such low pressure it wouldn't instantly spray fuel everywhere, but on the minus side, the flow can't be stopped unless there's a way at hand to plug the leak.

Are you thinking of using one of those fancy new generators with a fuel-injected engine? I admit I was thinking in terms of a carbureted generator and its potential for a low-pressure fuel leak pouring gasoline down onto the roof and into the interior, but having a high-pressure system running overhead sounds even more terrifying.

rmcdaniels wrote:

There are plenty of cars that I can see the engine from outside the car.

Treating the roof as a firewall and not worrying about open windows still doesn't strike me as equivalent to the question of whether one can see a conventionally-located engine from elsewhere outside the car, because in a conventional arrangement gravity isn't guaranteed to send pretty much any fuel leak towards the driver. I would expect a more comprehensive standard than 'line of sight' if one is proposing to sit directly under a supply of fuel, but if you've been in contact with HQ and they didn't object, then so be it.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

But it's not gravity fed, so no hydraulic head, or more accurately a hydraulic head that works in our favor. As with any other carburetor-fed generator that isn't gravity fed (the one on my RV comes immediately to mind), you bolt a small electric fuel pump inline on the generator by the carburetor so the pressurized line is immobile and only a few inches long. If I'm especially paranoid, then I make a hard line, but I'll probably use a reinforced rubber hose. The one on my RV has been working without leaks for over 20 years. If there is a breach before the pump, then it drains back to the tank due to the hydraulic head. If there is a breach after the pump, then you stop the leak the same way any other car on track stops the leak, with the kill switch.

All fuel hoses external to the car, or running inside it, would have to be run in conduit, so no leaks mid-line would be a problem, and fuel dripping on the roof is handled the same way as any other situation where fluid leakage could be a problem. I'd put an engine diaper pad under it, or just use a drip tray with a drain tube. Maybe a combination of both, although the pad would not be viable in the rain, but rain doesn't drip from the roof on to the driver, either, it runs down the rain gutter (80's cars still had rain gutters) out the back, which kind of makes my point. I'm not sure we even want to drive that car in the rain, the handling is exciting enough on dry pavement, and high voltage. None of these things in any way invalidates an unbroken sheet of metal as a firewall or changes the reasoning behind the rules.

As I said before, the generator on the roof will probably not be deemed track worthy, but not because of fuel. You have to ask what happens if the car gets upside down? It will either break away and fly off in some direction as a 200 pound projectile (most likely scenario) or get mashed through the sheet metal of the roof into the cockpit, where it would be an unwelcome intrusion, possibly damaging our large bust of Nicola Tesla, which took me over 24 hours to 3D print and melted the paint off of one of my servo motors. I don't want to have to print that thing again. Racing with it up there would require an exo-cage around it, which, while pretty damn cool, probably isn't going to happen.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

want the generator from my RV, think its 3kw rated.

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu - 4 races, IOE, Incredible Feats in Badge Engineering 1996 Ford Probe GT - under a knife
http://i.imgur.com/m3KbADo.gif

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Thanks, but I think that we're going to need at least 9K. I'm going to test it with one of the 5.5K generators that we've still got laying around from the generator farm that we ran at the last CMP race and see how it works. There's always the Mercedes if this all blows up.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

210 (edited by rmcdaniels 2017-07-20 09:13 PM)

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Update, apparently the chargers are hand-built to order and undergo an extensive QA process. Their QA engineer called me to verify the testing scenario, which I told him was CC/CV on the output side with an input power limit of 240V at 37.5A for 8 straight hours while the output cycled up and down because it was constantly in use. I then had to explain what the hell we were doing with their charger, but he said that he'd set the parameters up in their QA lab and do the testing.

I work for a company that in-house builds ruggedized tactical communications solutions and we do our own extensive QA for our customers, and it was very much like dealing with my people.

That said, I will do what I can, but I have to finish two other cars in the next month, one for HPDE's now that the Duff car is retired and sold, and one for the Targa Southland next month, so this may or may not be ready for the Fall CMP extravaganza. If not, then we will be campaigning the '81 Mercedes 240D that we ran at NCM, which is actually slower than the Electrica 007, but way more reliable and efficient. I am hoping to have Sparky ready though, just because it will be fun with the parade and all.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Still no ETA on my fancy charger, but enough chargers, power supplies, and batteries have sold to pay for the big-ass generator that I'll need to buy if this scheme works, so as of right now this boondoggle is fully funded. I have two of the old medium-ass generators still sitting around here, a few old chargers, a bunch of DC power supplies, and a good number of batteries. If I keep selling crap on eBay, then this could fund my Bosozoku-style diesel Chevette and my rear-engine Opel Kadett Caravan.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

It would be nice if we had a track equipped with sufficiently beefy electrical infrastructure to just charge your batteries without the use of a generator, but race tracks are barely able to power the popcorn machine at the snack shack. As we often say in this business, Electricity Is Impossible™.

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Barber (and COTA, but Lemons can't afford VIR much less an F1 circuit) had the power to manage it, but, of course, our technology blew up. The correct answer is "don't try" -- take the Formula E route and keep a shipping container full of already charged modules. We don't have that kind of budget. And Tesla won't return my calls. :-)

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

This is thread necromancy but can the big generator be called the BFG 9000?

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce Faithful Devotee
Writer of novels and not-novels. Co-host of Crossthreaded, an Exocet project.
http://jimhodgson.com - @jimhodgson - @xthreadedshow

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

I do not believe at this point that it could be called anything else.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Woo Hoo! The charger shipped today. There's no way this will be ready to race at CMP next weekend, but I'm tempted to ratchet-strap a big generator in the back and drive it to CMP for the parade and driving around the paddock. Maybe a judgemobile? I can see no way in which driving this totally untested solution a couple of hundred miles to CMP can possibly fail. It may, in fact, be my best idea ever.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

217 (edited by rmcdaniels 2017-09-13 08:48 AM)

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

I finally got done prepping cars for VIR and taking care of the City's official complaint that the Duff Beer and Amalgamated Enterprises Global Center for World Domination looks like the set from Sanford and Son. A 20-yard dumpster is now full, and we'll probably need another one before it's over, but all of the stuff that the city inspectors can see from the front of the building (and cite me for) is gone.

The new charger is arriving on Friday, so I rearranged the batteries and dropped a generator in the back of the car. It actually fits like it was made for it. Between having one less battery pack and getting rid of the battery swap mounting plate, which was really heavy, I think that we lost some weight as well as moved more of it farther forward.

This generator will not provide enough power for racing, but should work for driving around town to test the charger and validate the general idea. Witness Sparky Mark 3 Mod 0. Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! 

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-stuff-picture6655-hybrid1.jpg

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-stuff-picture6656-hybrid2.jpg

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

All this needs now is a solar powered refinery to produce gas for the generator which produces electricity for the batteries.

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce Faithful Devotee
Writer of novels and not-novels. Co-host of Crossthreaded, an Exocet project.
http://jimhodgson.com - @jimhodgson - @xthreadedshow

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

+1 for the Ozymandias reference.

-1 for Code Enforcement pricks.  I've had a lifetime's worth of run-ins with those shiny, happy folks.

2008- 2010:  1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
2010-present:  1975 Ford LTD Landau...doesn't have a name?

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

In an unexpected development, FedEx has informed me that the charger will be here one day earlier than expected. I'm taking this as pretty much a burning bush telling me to take the car to CMP. I'll see if Jay will let me drive it in the parade.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

The charger came in this morning. This is all coming together:

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-stuff-picture6657-charger.jpg

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

For those who missed it, I took the hybrid system on a 14-hour 166-mile road trip to the CMP fall race:

https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=35546

After doing that, I think this idea will work (for various definitions of "work"). My next step is to sell off all of my little generators and buy a big-ass generator. I'll also need to build one or two more battery modules and figure out where to put them. I may completely re-do how batteries are mounted, as I no longer need to keep them in a configuration that lets me swap them out. I'm thinking another battery box in the passenger area with another 12kwh of batteries in it for 24kwh total and 12kw of generator/charger capacity. This is going to be badass!

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

I think the concept is validated at this point, or maybe the concept is simply rationalized in my mind, but at any rate it's time for a real generator.

A quick CL search revealed these massive hunks of cast iron awesomeness just 12 miles from the shop. These have never been run, just sat in the back of a garage under a tarp for over ten years. I bought them this morning. There was a running/drivable Trabant under a tarp next to these; I'm working on getting that:

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-pj-picture6671-changfa1.jpg

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-pj-picture6672-st15.jpg



A Chang Fa ZS1115G diesel engine and a Tawasi ST-15 generator head is exactly what you want for powering your rural Indian village or stuffing in the back of your 1981 Plymouth Horizon. The awesomeness of this project just keeps escalating.

I'm going to have to see if hopper-cooled engines can be topped off in the hot pit. I wonder if there has been another one in Lemons?

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

As hoopie as this is getting, why not seal the water chamber and spin a water pump off tire friction and recirculate it through a radiator?

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

It actually has a water pump and a belt for it if I need to use that, but from what I've read, these old cast iron horizontal diesels actually maintain cooler cylinder temps if I use the hopper. I just have to rig up a high temp float switch to cut it off if the level drops too low.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!