Topic: GingerMan fueling

Hey all,

My team is going to be racing at gingerman in a few weeks, for the second time.  From our experience last year, fueling trackside gets expensive, and driving into town to refill 5gal cans every stop or two gets to be a bit difficult.  With some quick calculation, it looks like it may be economical to have a fuel drum trackside (an idea we got at a race earlier this year at autobahn).  Does anyone know if gingerman allows that?  If so: has anyone done it before?

I figure we've got three options as far as getting fuel to the track:
A.) Bring an empty drum in the tow vehicle bed, fill it at a local station and move it the 3 miles.  we could use a hand crank pump in the back of the pickup to move fuel into 5gal fill jugs.

B.) Find a company to deliver fuel trackside (I've seen that this typically needs at least 100gal purchase).  We could potentially find out who delivers to gingerman and use them

C.) find a local place to us (eastern michigan - detroit metro area) and carry it all the way to gingerman.  (still trying to understand the legality and sketchyness of this)

as far as transferring from the drum to cans - do we need to follow the "normal" Lemons fueling rules (full gear, fire extinguisher, etc)?  We'd plan on keeping the drum under a canopy in our pit-stall area, likely on the grass, if we pit in a similar area as we did last year.

B Class winning Club 991 Prelude

Re: GingerMan fueling

I normally have a number of cheap 5 gallon cans and 2 good cans to fill the car quickly.  That way I only have to get gas once a day.  You don't need full gear to fill the cans but try to do it in as safe a way as possible.  No gas fights.

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Re: GingerMan fueling

I was on a team that brought a 55 gal. drum to the track in their trailer.  The member did live in a rural area and did have diesel fuel delivered to his house so getting the drum filled was easy.  Taking a drum to a local gas station should not be an issue as long as it's marked and colored correctly.  Or you can make the required number of trips to fill it with 5 gal cans. 

A hand held pump does works fine to re-fill  the jugs.  .

Re: GingerMan fueling

We have used a fuel buddy 30 gallon tank for years but this race we will be using a 50 gallon DOT legal marked drum.  FYI, the fuel station at the highway only can do $90 for pay at the pump but go in, use your credit card and it is unlimited.

Re: GingerMan fueling

OnkelUdo wrote:

... we will be using a 50 gallon DOT legal marked drum.

What makes a drum DOT legal?   What do they do to mark it?

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Re: GingerMan fueling

OnkelUdo wrote:

We have used a fuel buddy 30 gallon tank for years but this race we will be using a 50 gallon DOT legal marked drum.  FYI, the fuel station at the highway only can do $90 for pay at the pump but go in, use your credit card and it is unlimited.

So you're just going to fill it close to the track and drive the short distance? How are you going to dispense the fuel? I was discussing with a teammate the other day about pumps - fuel rate d ones are expensive and I don't know that I want to risk using a non-fuel rated one (something about making static electricity and whatnot)

B Class winning Club 991 Prelude

Re: GingerMan fueling

I used a VP Racing Fuel 55 gallon drum that I filled in South Haven. Hand pumped into the 5 gallon jugs at the track. No problems.

8 (edited by cwl37 2017-09-27 05:43 PM)

Re: GingerMan fueling

We have a two-drum (55 gal. each) set-up on the front of our trailer.  The drums use a custom made fixture keeping them sturdy and in-place, but I only travel with the drums empty and fill up as close to the track as possible.  We use a name brand (Fill-rite), made in the USA, rotary manual drum pump to transfer the fuel into 5 gal. jugs at the track.  I believe 130 gal. is the magic number to stay under in order to legally transport fuel on public roads.  Like mentioned earlier, you'll want to go inside the gas station and tell them how much you want.  Yes, you'll probably get some funny looks/questions.  If you don't go inside and pre-pay, the pump will typically stop between $75 and $100 depending on credit card vs. specific gas station agreements.

When refueling, we keep the drums on the trailer and use standard full Lemons fueling gear (fire extinguisher and all) to transfer fuel into the 5 gal. jugs.  No, this may not be required, but it's the safest way to do it and there isn't a good reason not to.  I would not recommend putting this much fuel under a canopy where you'll be regularly working.  Farther from people and hot cars/brakes the better.  Be sure to use a STEEL (not plastic) 55 gal. drum.

You're welcome to check out our rig at the upcoming Gingerman race.  We've been doing it like this since October of 2014 and are very happy with it.

- Cooper
Team Rod Throwin' Fools (#31 MR2)

9 (edited by zeoalex 2017-09-28 04:59 AM)

Re: GingerMan fueling

cwl37 wrote:

We have a two-drum (55 gal. each) set-up on the front of our trailer.  The drums use a custom made fixture keeping them sturdy and in-place, but I only travel with the drums empty and fill up as close to the track as possible.  We use a name brand (Fill-rite), made in the USA, rotary manual drum pump to transfer the fuel into 5 gal. jugs at the track.  I believe 130 gal. is the magic number to stay under in order to legally transport fuel on public roads.  Like mentioned earlier, you'll want to go inside the gas station and tell them how much you want.  Yes, you'll probably get some funny looks/questions.  If you don't go inside and pre-pay, the pump will typically stop between $75 and $100 depending on credit card vs. specific gas station agreements.

When refueling, we keep the drums on the trailer and use standard full Lemons fueling gear (fire extinguisher and all) to transfer fuel into the 5 gal. jugs.  No, this may not be required, but it's the safest way to do it and there isn't a good reason not to.  I would not recommend putting this much fuel under a canopy where you'll be regularly working.  Farther from people and hot cars/brakes the better.  Be sure to use a STEEL (not plastic) 55 gal. drum.

You're welcome to check out our rig at the upcoming Gingerman race.  We've been doing it like this since October of 2014 and are very happy with it.

That sounds like a really good setup...we may have to work on a similar setup for the trailer.  We may avoid doing the full on drum thing for this race, but I'd love to come swing by and check out your setup. I think somehow we've managed to paddock by you guys at this gingerman race last year and in Joliet earlier this year.  Maybe we'll end up doing it again

B Class winning Club 991 Prelude

Re: GingerMan fueling

BoB wrote:

I normally have a number of cheap 5 gallon cans and 2 good cans to fill the car quickly.  That way I only have to get gas once a day.  You don't need full gear to fill the cans but try to do it in as safe a way as possible.

This is how the teams I've raced with have done it every time:
1. Get a bunch of 5-gal fuel jugs, they don't have to be nice, just legal and safe.
2. Get two or three (depending on how big your race car's tank is, enough to fill it) nicer ones that flow fast enough for refueling stops.
3. At the start of each day, fill up all your jugs at the local gas station and bring them to track.  If you're not camping onsite, do this on your way in.
4. During fuel stops refill the car from the good jugs
5. Between stops, transfer fuel from the cheap jugs to the good ones.  Unscrew the caps, use a big funnel and just pour it in.  Have someone nearby with a fire extinguisher just in case.  You don't have to wear a suit for this, but it's not a bad idea.  If you do it right after a pit stop, someone will still have a suit on.  Obviously don't do it near ignition sources, and use your body to block the wind.
6. Once you no longer have enough gas to fill your tank at the next stop, run to the gas station and fill all your jugs again (or however many you need to finish the day).

This is probably easier and cheaper than getting a drum, and empty fuel jugs are easy to transport (just throw 'em in the back of the truck, hang 'em from the trailer ceiling, whatever).  When I was racing the Festiva, it only took 10 gallons of gas per stop, so fueling was quick.  We typically had to make just one fuel run during the day.

No gas fights.

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Re: GingerMan fueling

VP will also drop drums (Full ones of course)  where you are going to race. You have to call the track so they know about it though.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: GingerMan fueling

zeoalex wrote:

That sounds like a really good setup...we may have to work on a similar setup for the trailer.  We may avoid doing the full on drum thing for this race, but I'd love to come swing by and check out your setup. I think somehow we've managed to paddock by you guys at this gingerman race last year and in Joliet earlier this year.  Maybe we'll end up doing it again

Stop on by any time.  We really like the set-up and it sure beats dealing with a bunch of individual gas cans all weekend (plus added safety not transporting fuel in plastic).  We make one stop at the gas station on the way to the track and 110 gal. is enough for Friday practice and Saturday/Sunday race.  You can probably find someone who can get drums for you for free (I can get them empty, used at work), but they're probably not too expensive if you have to buy them.  The only real investment is the drum pump and you can probably go cheaper than we did.

- Cooper
Team Rod Throwin' Fools (#31 MR2)

Re: GingerMan fueling

cwl37 wrote:
zeoalex wrote:

That sounds like a really good setup...we may have to work on a similar setup for the trailer.  We may avoid doing the full on drum thing for this race, but I'd love to come swing by and check out your setup. I think somehow we've managed to paddock by you guys at this gingerman race last year and in Joliet earlier this year.  Maybe we'll end up doing it again

Stop on by any time.  We really like the set-up and it sure beats dealing with a bunch of individual gas cans all weekend (plus added safety not transporting fuel in plastic).  We make one stop at the gas station on the way to the track and 110 gal. is enough for Friday practice and Saturday/Sunday race.  You can probably find someone who can get drums for you for free (I can get them empty, used at work), but they're probably not too expensive if you have to buy them.  The only real investment is the drum pump and you can probably go cheaper than we did.

I'll absolutely take you up on that.  I'll trade a look at the fueling for a pull or two of beer off the kegs in our pits friday/saturday night.

Since we started discussing all of this, we figured two things:

1.) all the pumps we were looking at aren't necessarily rated for fuel

2.) We may avoid doing this, at least this time around...we don't want to buy up 50-100gal of fuel to potentially have 40-90gal of fuel if we don't make it through the race (we're hopeful this time). 

how do you deal with these issues?

B Class winning Club 991 Prelude

Re: GingerMan fueling

Just curious, what is wrong with plastic fuel drums?

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Re: GingerMan fueling

zeoalex wrote:

I'll absolutely take you up on that.  I'll trade a look at the fueling for a pull or two of beer off the kegs in our pits friday/saturday night.

Since we started discussing all of this, we figured two things:

1.) all the pumps we were looking at aren't necessarily rated for fuel

2.) We may avoid doing this, at least this time around...we don't want to buy up 50-100gal of fuel to potentially have 40-90gal of fuel if we don't make it through the race (we're hopeful this time). 

how do you deal with these issues?

Deal on the beer!

1.)  I'd definitely recommend one rated for gasoline just so you don't have to worry about something breaking down and leaving you with a drum full of gas that you can't pump out.  We use a Fill-Rite FR112 which was somewhere around $160, but the Fill-Rite SD62 is rated for gasoline and is less than $40.  It just doesn't have the fancy hose and solid mounting base, but would be just fine.

2.)  This is a legitimate concern considering we're racing $500 cars!  We've broken down and not been able to use all the fuel, but we usually have between 3 and 5 other vehicles there (including our tow vehicle).  We have just used the extra fuel from the drums to fill everyone's personal vehicles.

One other recent modification we did that you can check out, was to make all the fuel rig connections tool free.  We replaced all threaded connections with cam-lock fittings, so we don't have to mess with thread tape, pipe wrenches, and waste time assembling everything.  I really want to have fun racing, so we've been working to make any "necessary evil" tasks as simple or non-existent as possible.

- Cooper
Team Rod Throwin' Fools (#31 MR2)

Re: GingerMan fueling

racinrob wrote:

Just curious, what is wrong with plastic fuel drums?

Plastic is flammable.   Steel is also much stronger, especially at the threaded connections.  It only takes a split second for something unpredictable to happen and get out of control, whether it's an unexpected fire or a drum falling off of your trailer.  Any threaded fittings could be ripped right out of a plastic bung.  I've also seen people welding, grinding, and smoking right next to their fuel jugs at Lemons races, so no matter how safe you are, you never know what the idiot parked next to you could be doing.

In industrial settings, flammable liquids in plastic containers are highly frowned upon and is a fast way to raise your insurance rates or necessitate an upgrade of your fire suppression system.

- Cooper
Team Rod Throwin' Fools (#31 MR2)

Re: GingerMan fueling

racinrob wrote:

Just curious, what is wrong with plastic fuel drums?

Lemme tell ya a Story bout my friend JEFF. Jeff's a handyman type and was driving around with a lawn mower and some gas in the bed of his truck. Well as he pulled into a place he was going to mow he noticed a weird shimmer in the shadow his truck was making. His can was on fire. I dono how, Jeff just seems to anger the gods often. Well Jeff put that fuel can as far back in his bed as he could in a metal basket for easy grabbin. So he had to climb up and move some stuff to get at the now quite on fire can. He grabs the basket with the can and as soon as he moves it, Plastic does what plastic does and melts wide open. He jumped away in time. But what was an inconvenience fire became a full on Goodby truck and Tools in truck, and some of the tree above the truck.

Now obviously a FIRE EXTINGUISHER would have solved the problem easy enough. But so would Jeff still paying full loss insurance on his truck and tools. That's just how Jeff, Jeffs.

Still, plastic likes to melt, then things get WAY out of hand!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: GingerMan fueling

cwl37 wrote:
zeoalex wrote:

I'll absolutely take you up on that.  I'll trade a look at the fueling for a pull or two of beer off the kegs in our pits friday/saturday night.

Since we started discussing all of this, we figured two things:

1.) all the pumps we were looking at aren't necessarily rated for fuel

2.) We may avoid doing this, at least this time around...we don't want to buy up 50-100gal of fuel to potentially have 40-90gal of fuel if we don't make it through the race (we're hopeful this time). 

how do you deal with these issues?

Deal on the beer!

1.)  I'd definitely recommend one rated for gasoline just so you don't have to worry about something breaking down and leaving you with a drum full of gas that you can't pump out.  We use a Fill-Rite FR112 which was somewhere around $160, but the Fill-Rite SD62 is rated for gasoline and is less than $40.  It just doesn't have the fancy hose and solid mounting base, but would be just fine.

2.)  This is a legitimate concern considering we're racing $500 cars!  We've broken down and not been able to use all the fuel, but we usually have between 3 and 5 other vehicles there (including our tow vehicle).  We have just used the extra fuel from the drums to fill everyone's personal vehicles.

One other recent modification we did that you can check out, was to make all the fuel rig connections tool free.  We replaced all threaded connections with cam-lock fittings, so we don't have to mess with thread tape, pipe wrenches, and waste time assembling everything.  I really want to have fun racing, so we've been working to make any "necessary evil" tasks as simple or non-existent as possible.

Great! brewed up a couple batches yesterday, we'll be around (at least most of the team).  Just look for the trashcan with a faucet and con-rod poking out of it

I'll have to look into that pump...at $40 it's pretty easy to eat that

yep, that was what we got told as well form one of our friends who has done this once or twice.  He said to ensure that all vehicles show up empty just in case.  Only downside to me is driving a diesel heh.

My whole brew-setup is all cam locks...they're wonderful.  I could see those making life incredibly easy for the fuel setup

B Class winning Club 991 Prelude

Re: GingerMan fueling

Cooper,

I might pick one of those fuel jugs up off you if that's ok. I bring 4 hunsuckers and 3 regular red 5 gals and this could replace the 3 5 gals as far as truck space and greatly increase capacity.

IIRC, you're not that far from where I'm based in Kokomo

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A&D of middling proportions

Re: GingerMan fueling

zeoalex wrote:

.

My whole brew-setup is all cam locks...they're wonderful.  I could see those making life incredibly easy for the fuel setup

Make sure to include some of your homebrew in the Potluck Friday night.  I am bringing the trashcan kegorator with one each of Lawnmower RyePA, Tarrytown Rusty Brown and Black and Mild (dark Northern English Mild).  If you need details on the potluck, look in this section of the forum or PM me.

Re: GingerMan fueling

OnkelUdo wrote:
zeoalex wrote:

.

My whole brew-setup is all cam locks...they're wonderful.  I could see those making life incredibly easy for the fuel setup

Make sure to include some of your homebrew in the Potluck Friday night.  I am bringing the trashcan kegorator with one each of Lawnmower RyePA, Tarrytown Rusty Brown and Black and Mild (dark Northern English Mild).  If you need details on the potluck, look in this section of the forum or PM me.


waitwaitwaitwait
the potluck is Friday night? for some reason I was under the assumption that it was saturday (I have to be gone for a wedding...yaaaaay)...I may have to do that then! I TOO will have a trashcan kegorator (or two) with a spiced brown and a lemon-wheat.  Knowing that it's friday night, maybe I will bring the smoker along with me too

B Class winning Club 991 Prelude

Re: GingerMan fueling

zeoalex wrote:

waitwaitwaitwait
the potluck is Friday night? for some reason I was under the assumption that it was saturday (I have to be gone for a wedding...yaaaaay)...I may have to do that then! I TOO will have a trashcan kegorator (or two) with a spiced brown and a lemon-wheat.  Knowing that it's friday night, maybe I will bring the smoker along with me too

Friday was such a hit at NCM (which went BETTER than Gingerman) that I think it will be standing appointment any time I plan one.  Less cars are blown up and even the delicate flowers that stay in hotels are willing to hang out for a couple hours for good grub.

Re: GingerMan fueling

OnkelUdo wrote:
zeoalex wrote:

waitwaitwaitwait
the potluck is Friday night? for some reason I was under the assumption that it was saturday (I have to be gone for a wedding...yaaaaay)...I may have to do that then! I TOO will have a trashcan kegorator (or two) with a spiced brown and a lemon-wheat.  Knowing that it's friday night, maybe I will bring the smoker along with me too

Friday was such a hit at NCM (which went BETTER than Gingerman) that I think it will be standing appointment any time I plan one.  Less cars are blown up and even the delicate flowers that stay in hotels are willing to hang out for a couple hours for good grub.

Alright, knowing that..let me see what I can put together!

do AirBNB's count the same way hotels do? heh

B Class winning Club 991 Prelude