Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Guildenstern wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

What is "C" Class currently we are in "A" whatever that means.

It's where all the cool kids are laughing at people running around doing 2 min pitstops to win nickels.

2 minute pit? sheeeet takes me that long just to get out of the dam car

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6gzOcTNKwE

Terribly Awesome Racing
Dozen time loser. You'd think I'd know better by now.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:

Ours has already been installed. Other leagues require them, same as window nets. Both make good sense.

There valid arguments against window nets...somewhat mitigated by a WELL DESIGNED and CORRECTLY INSTALLED fire suppression system.  I am not a fan of the nets but I am almost (almost) unwilling to race a car with one that does not have an oh-shit button for fire.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

What is "C" Class currently we are in "A" whatever that means.

It's where all the cool kids are laughing at people running around doing 2 min pitstops to win nickels.

2 minute pit? sheeeet takes me that long just to get out of the dam car

I know, some of these teams have full ride sponsorships to Try Hard Juice I think.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

OnkelUdo wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

Ours has already been installed. Other leagues require them, same as window nets. Both make good sense.

There valid arguments against window nets...somewhat mitigated by a WELL DESIGNED and CORRECTLY INSTALLED fire suppression system.  I am not a fan of the nets but I am almost (almost) unwilling to race a car with one that does not have an oh-shit button for fire.

I know I sure as heck wouldn't want to be in a window netted car WITHOUT a good Fire System!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

OnkelUdo wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

Ours has already been installed. Other leagues require them, same as window nets. Both make good sense.

There valid arguments against window nets...somewhat mitigated by a WELL DESIGNED and CORRECTLY INSTALLED fire suppression system.  I am not a fan of the nets but I am almost (almost) unwilling to race a car with one that does not have an oh-shit button for fire.

I hope you are running a full containment seat and have leashes on your arms

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

TheEngineer wrote:

While I kind of agree with the auto penalty laps on overall winners, it's really hard to do consistently across the country with a single rule. Each region seems to be a little different when it comes to overall winners and applying a single rule that fixes one region would likely not solve the others. I think the judges do try to equalize, but it comes down to that particular race in the end.

One thing that might work is allowing the judges to adjust penalty laps at the end of friday once they've seen the full field. I'm going to pick on New England for a second. But for example if at a future race Suncook shows up with the same unthemed car and none of the teams that were close to challenging show up, the judges could add a couple penalty laps to even out the top of the field.

Buuuuut that seems like more work for the judges and i fully expect them to tell me to shove this idea up something.

I feel like this is a failure at the application process level.  There was once a time where we felt we had to theme our car real good just to be accepted into a race.  We used to send in drawings and graphics to illustrate our theme and make a case as to why we would be good participants but now apparently your theme can be "paid entry fee on time".  I have no ill will against any teams in particular, but when I see a parade of black cars with not much more than a number on them lining up it makes me wonder if we should have spent less time worrying that we wouldn't get in the race without a theme and more time preparing the car mechanically.

26 entries since 2009
#30 & #39 Overengineer'd Racing - Wilton, NH
http://www.facebook.com/nhlemons

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

My first draft of this post listed a bunch of comments about "A" cars / teams that I have personally overheard at events.  I decided to not post them after all, however, I agree with most of them.

I too would like to see more "C" cars, but at the same time I understand that its hard to justify the time and effort to be put into a pile of junk (for some people, not me, I like junk).  Lemons is a business, and its management has an obligation to be successful as such; I get it.  At the same time they have options to work at staying truer to their roots. It would be great if they can find ways to encourage more "C" cars, and discourage "A" cars.   

Having super fast and super slow cars on the track at the same time is a safety concern for everyone.

The "Curse" kept the all-out races cars out, or at least to a minimum.  MAYBE bringing it back, slightly modified, might help get less "A" cars, and more "C" cars.  Maybe not a "vote" system, but a lottery of "A" class winners?  This would not guarantee a curse at every event, just a RISK of one.  Make it like a one in ten or a one in twenty, maybe change the odds on how many laps done, how close second place was, number of overall wins, stuff like that.

Anyone can build and drive a 'fast' well handling car, but driving fast in a 'slow' car takes talent.

2017 Thompson Motor Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan Racing...... WTF.........
2016 Thompson Motor Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

-SDR- wrote:

My first draft of this post listed a bunch of comments about "A" cars / teams that I have personally overheard at events.  I decided to not post them after all, however, I agree with most of them.

I too would like to see more "C" cars, but at the same time I understand that its hard to justify the time and effort to be put into a pile of junk (for some people, not me, I like junk).  Lemons is a business, and its management has an obligation to be successful as such; I get it.  At the same time they have options to work at staying truer to their roots. It would be great if they can find ways to encourage more "C" cars, and discourage "A" cars.   

Having super fast and super slow cars on the track at the same time is a safety concern for everyone.

The "Curse" kept the all-out races cars out, or at least to a minimum.  MAYBE bringing it back, slightly modified, might help get less "A" cars, and more "C" cars.  Maybe not a "vote" system, but a lottery of "A" class winners?  This would not guarantee a curse at every event, just a RISK of one.  Make it like a one in ten or a one in twenty, maybe change the odds on how many laps done, how close second place was, number of overall wins, stuff like that.

Anyone can build and drive a 'fast' well handling car, but driving fast in a 'slow' car takes talent.

Maybe the curse would be a 20 lap penalty for their next race if they bring the same car.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

-SDR- wrote:

The "Curse" kept the all-out races cars out, or at least to a minimum.  MAYBE bringing it back, slightly modified, might help get less "A" cars, and more "C" cars.  Maybe not a "vote" system, but a lottery of "A" class winners?  This would not guarantee a curse at every event, just a RISK of one.  Make it like a one in ten or a one in twenty, maybe change the odds on how many laps done, how close second place was, number of overall wins, stuff like that.

IMO, part of what you describe (if I'm understanding you correctly) is part of the reason why the Curse got tossed.  When we started, the curse was really meant for the team who drove like ass-hats, which had nothing to do with the class or speed.  It worked well in the first two races at CMP, where the first was a Spec E30 that was crushed because their goal was to drive like an ass-hat.  The dive-bombed the chicane every lap until finally one team had enough and pushed them over into the guardrail.  I was standing at the fence and everyone cheered to see those ass-hats get theirs.  IIRC, the following day they stopped counting votes at 100 because it was clear the field wanted that car crushed.  The definitely deserved it.  The next race, the Superkak Mustang was crushed because they too drove like complete ass-hats, and thought blasting a siren all night might be fun.  In subsequent races, people started voting for the car they thought was cheaty, or just because they were the leader, not because they drove like ass-hats.

The part I find ironic, is most of the worst offenders don't need to drive like that to win.  The cursed Superkak Mustang was about 2 seconds faster per lap than any other car on a 1 mile course.  When you are that fast, you can simply wait for the next straight and never have to take a chance on any sketchy passing.  The Boom Surprise Probe GT at PBIR back in 2010 was a perfect example of how to do just that.  The drove fast and clean, waited for the easy passes, and were so far ahead they could have stopped an hour early and still won the race.

I have no problem with a modified version of the curse for ass-hat driving teams.  It should not be limited to faster A-class cars though because there are ass-hats in class B & C too, though I'll concede most are in class A.  Something like a one-hour penalty to start day two would be a good start IMO.

TLDR;  Lemons is Jay's sandbox, Jay makes the rules, so we're all just talking to ourselves here about changes we'd like to see.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
#411
'93 Acura Integra

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I for one would love for the winning teams in each class bring donuts to the drivers meeting the next race they attend.  Enough to giver everyone at least two.

Skip "Mongo" L.
Team DadBod

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Bad driving has little to do with the car.  Black flags already solve that issue.
Isn't there a 'claimer' rule in Lemons that someone can buy your car for $500?
that would kill all the cheaters.   

Building a cheap car is a lot of work, and getting constantly passed by everyone doesn't seem like fun to me.

Did I see two corvettes and boxster in sonoma pics?  Not to mention those LS swaps.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

nimblemotorsports wrote:

Bad driving has little to do with the car.  Black flags already solve that issue.
Isn't there a 'claimer' rule in Lemons that someone can buy your car for $500?
that would kill all the cheaters.   

Building a cheap car is a lot of work, and getting constantly passed by everyone doesn't seem like fun to me.

Did I see two corvettes and boxster in sonoma pics?  Not to mention those LS swaps.

There is a claimer rule, but it's not that anyone can buy your car. Only Jay can buy your car, and it's clear that he has no interest in taking peoples crapcans home with him.

13x Lemons Loser
#33 Ford Festiva - We Are Not Really From Iran (sold to new owners)
#928 Porsche 928 - West German Pushrodders (Coming soon to a West Coast event near you!)

39 (edited by TheEngineer 2017-12-07 10:42 AM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

n0m4d wrote:

  I have no ill will against any teams in particular, but when I see a parade of black cars with not much more than a number on them lining up it makes me wonder if we should have spent less time worrying that we wouldn't get in the race without a theme and more time preparing the car mechanically.


Looks at black saab with only numbers that I've raced the last year. Hides.




What's showing here is what always shows up now and then, and it's simply a difference in opinion that comes with having hundreds of people interested in a thing. Everyone has a slightly different vision of what they think this should be. On top of that people's own views shift. I spent years suffering my way though C-class. And it was fun. But honestly? now I want reliability and speed. I've paid my dues to the C-class gods and showing up with a car that can sit top 30 with no effort, and can make top 20 if we push and make no mistakes has been a real joy lately. Building and racing shitty cars is an effort in burn out. It's fun for a little, but eventually you just stop finding joy in wasting a ton on money to come wrench at a race track and not turn laps. It takes new teams to step up and pay their dues to the IOE gods.

speed creep was always going to hit this series. Just from the fact of how long it's been around. Everyone whines about E36s, but those cars are just as old now as E30's were when the series kicked off. Cars from 2000 are almost 18 years old. 1995 is antique in most states. The field of available cars is opening up to faster and faster options. So we can sit and grumble, or we can just accept it and continue to enjoy what we're doing.

17 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Ok, here's a legit modification to the operations that I'd like to see, but admittedly it is waaaay overly complicated and does nothing for the bottom line in the short term. To paraphrase someone on the other side: "It's easy to spend $1 to make 80¢"

Driver wristbands have a barcode or similar to scan that for each race is tagged for that driver and linked to a database. Every time that person comes in for a BF offense, their wristband is scanned and the offense is logged for the individual driver both for that race and for future reference. There's someone who runs a messenger setup from the tower to black flag at every race that denotes car and reported nature of offense and location of offense. A pen and paper is currently used to record those offenses for each event and then it is tossed when the event is over.  Making a program that allows it to be logged electronically and then referenced by driver may be helpful or at least help identify habitually douchey or incident-prone drivers who drive multiple cars at events.

(as someone who has traditionally brought multiple cars to events, having 8 drivers for 2-3 cars means one car can get BF'd out for the day and the drivers still can get track time in the other car)

The logistics involved include:
Printing wristbands with unique identifiers on them, ideally something scan-able by a smartphone app or other handheld device that can bluetooth the info to the BF laptop.

Linking the driver database at HQ with a program that will allow the info reported by the flaggers to BF to be attached to said driver with the same info of who what where and when and that can have a means for including things like "self-report" or other notes like they disputed the flag or were the hit-ee not the hit-er, they just did a driver change and have no idea why they were bf'd, etc

When driver checks in at the event HQ and receives the wristband, it is scanned and clicked to link that scanned barcode to the driver for that event.

Every time a car comes in the driver's wristband is scanned and the offense is logged. It can eventually help BF so that there is another way to record that a car has come in for BF (I know I've forgotten to immediately cross a car off before that did show up for its lumps). The short term benefit is it can help identify problem-prone drivers at the current event, and it can help identify problem-prone drivers over multiple events. Heck, if they really cared, they could use that info when deciding whether or not to accept a given team's application that has multiple drivers who have BF magnets listed on the roster.

There are probably some insurance tracking benefits, marketing tracking benefits, and it could conceivably be used to scan drivers as they are going onto the track and coming off to monitor stint lengths if they ever got to that (but that would be further complicated by cars/drivers getting towed off at someplace other than track off). It could maybe become some Uber-like customer rating app for the OKStupid feature for A&D.

It's a level of sophistication that Lemons probably doesn't need nor want and the judges and competitors have a pretty good handle on who's who and whatnot. But it could be a good stepping stone towards automating some stuff should the series look to expand/grow. It would take away from the feel of "This series is run by 2 dudes in pool loungers splitting a case of PBR at HQ" but might help institute a level of "were watching you, douchebag" like the people's curse used to do.

But, the truth is, we teams and drivers do a pretty good job of policing ourselves.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Red Lemons Racing wrote:

I wouldn't even consider trying to build a class C car.  We have been in A from the start even with a 4 cylinder automatic.  I have seen the same type of car be in both A and B at the same race so not worth it imho.

I wouldn't even consider trying to build a class A car.  We've been in C from the start.  Trying really hard to win a race where the top prize is for the shittiest car doesn't seem worth it.

2008- 2010:  1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
2010-present:  1975 Ford LTD Landau...doesn't have a name?

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

n0m4d wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

While I kind of agree with the auto penalty laps on overall winners, it's really hard to do consistently across the country with a single rule. Each region seems to be a little different when it comes to overall winners and applying a single rule that fixes one region would likely not solve the others. I think the judges do try to equalize, but it comes down to that particular race in the end.

One thing that might work is allowing the judges to adjust penalty laps at the end of friday once they've seen the full field. I'm going to pick on New England for a second. But for example if at a future race Suncook shows up with the same unthemed car and none of the teams that were close to challenging show up, the judges could add a couple penalty laps to even out the top of the field.

Buuuuut that seems like more work for the judges and i fully expect them to tell me to shove this idea up something.

I feel like this is a failure at the application process level.  There was once a time where we felt we had to theme our car real good just to be accepted into a race.  We used to send in drawings and graphics to illustrate our theme and make a case as to why we would be good participants but now apparently your theme can be "paid entry fee on time".  I have no ill will against any teams in particular, but when I see a parade of black cars with not much more than a number on them lining up it makes me wonder if we should have spent less time worrying that we wouldn't get in the race without a theme and more time preparing the car mechanically.

It all depends on how full the race is. The BIG races have few flat black rattle canned Miatas and E30's. The races that maybe get 75 or 80% entry take who they can get. They still have to run a race first.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Fishah wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:

Bad driving has little to do with the car.  Black flags already solve that issue.
Isn't there a 'claimer' rule in Lemons that someone can buy your car for $500?
that would kill all the cheaters.   

Building a cheap car is a lot of work, and getting constantly passed by everyone doesn't seem like fun to me.

Did I see two corvettes and boxster in sonoma pics?  Not to mention those LS swaps.

There is a claimer rule, but it's not that anyone can buy your car. Only Jay can buy your car, and it's clear that he has no interest in taking peoples crapcans home with him.

No one was a pity purchase, and the other still hasn't actually been collected from Prat & Miller and was mostly done to put the fear of god into everyone else.

https://blog.caranddriver.com/yes-24-ho … heres-why/

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

TheEngineer wrote:
n0m4d wrote:

  I have no ill will against any teams in particular, but when I see a parade of black cars with not much more than a number on them lining up it makes me wonder if we should have spent less time worrying that we wouldn't get in the race without a theme and more time preparing the car mechanically.


Looks at black saab with only numbers that I've raced the last year. Hides.

Go buy some finger paints already. Warhol that swedish puppy up!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

Guildenstern wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:
n0m4d wrote:

  I have no ill will against any teams in particular, but when I see a parade of black cars with not much more than a number on them lining up it makes me wonder if we should have spent less time worrying that we wouldn't get in the race without a theme and more time preparing the car mechanically.


Looks at black saab with only numbers that I've raced the last year. Hides.

Go buy some finger paints already. Warhol that swedish puppy up!

There's a slowly developing theme happening. No one has noticed it yet. We'll start making it more obvious in 2018. Juuuuust in time to debut the E36 hate machine.

17 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

VKZ24 wrote:
Spank wrote:

The rule that I would like is that every time a particular car with a particular team wins a class or an overall, they get an automatic 1 lap "penalty'. Win 5 overall races and they get 5 bs laps.

I'm all for this except the penalty laps should be much more.  If you are the overall race winner, you should get at least a 10 lap penalty for the next race.

Call them "hero laps". Sounds better.

47 (edited by m610 2017-12-07 06:19 PM)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

I like Spank's idea. Drivers would in effect have a documented history, a batting average, a resume even, they can use when they try to get a seat in a realracecar and/or not get a seat in my car.

I'm not keen on the laps penalties for winners. The winners are doing everything right. The problems are with other teams.

Maybe awarding penalty laps to teams who BF'ed in the previous race would help encourage people to drive better. Call them unhero laps.

We've got a fire system and a window net. I had wanted the former for a while. At first my guys did not want a window net but then after seeing the video of a car putting a wheel inside the passenger-side window they changed their mind. I'm currently thinking of a scatter shield for the clutch and flywheel.

Mike

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

nimblemotorsports wrote:

Did I see two corvettes and boxster in sonoma pics?

I do remember going by one of the Corvettes quite handily with my solidly B class driving in our solidly B class car. Everybody looks fast in pictures.

14X Loser - Delinquent Racing - '86 TRUMPACO Merkur - '17 Arse Freeze, Arse Sweat, Sears Pointless, '16 Pointless, Vodden, Arse Sweat, Button Turrible, Arse Freeze - 2015 Vodden, Arse Freeze. '96 Ford Taurus SHO Skunk - '17 Vodden (Hope for the Future award - not me, the rookies), '15 Pointless, Button Turrible. A&D w/Panting Polar Bears - Ugly Brown Camero - '17 Button Turrible.

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

nimblemotorsports wrote:

Did I see two corvettes and boxster in sonoma pics?

Aaaaaaaand they finished 50th(vette),72nd(boxster),and 118th(vette).............

20+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
4x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    1 Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: 2018 Rules Update: Class C cars will get to race for half price!

BigBird wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:

Did I see two corvettes and boxster in sonoma pics?

Aaaaaaaand they finished 50th(vette),72nd(boxster),and 118th(vette).............

Thanks for the perspective. So, among other things, beaten roundly by an Olds Omega and a stock S500 smile

OMG Racing '94 Benz S500 #140: https://www.facebook.com/pages/OMG-Raci … 2774944199
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15. Inde '16,17.Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12...look for the #820 Audi back on a track near you in 2017!!