Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Seems like it's a combination of engine and car.  Small engine, small car.  How about oneadem TDI's in a Miata?  Or even lighter, like some 50's French car (meeting minimum wheelbase, of course).

The rules state a fuel cell of a maximum size.  But what if the stock fuel tank is larger than that?  I'm thinking of a 2WD Suburban.  Get a weight waiver, and some of them had 40 gallon tanks.

2008- 2010:  1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
2010-present:  1975 Ford LTD Landau...doesn't have a name?

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

mechimike wrote:

Seems like it's a combination of engine and car.  Small engine, small car.  How about oneadem TDI's in a Miata?  Or even lighter, like some 50's French car (meeting minimum wheelbase, of course).

The rules state a fuel cell of a maximum size.  But what if the stock fuel tank is larger than that?  I'm thinking of a 2WD Suburban.  Get a weight waiver, and some of them had 40 gallon tanks.

I seem to recall the Smokey Unit Fiat intended to run all day non-stop, but it of course blew the hell up 13 minutes into the race. That's a TDI-swapped (I think?) Fiat 124 with a fuel cell. The one time that car worked the way it was supposed to, it finished 2nd, though I think they made one stop. It was also properly quick.

eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

SpaceFrank wrote:

I would ask the Duff Beer guys what kind of economy they saw in their 240D with the original engine.

Something like 27mpg. We drove it like a tractor (fixed - "on the floor" - throttle) all weekend. Of course, I was the only one to get it over 60mph (60.2) all weekend. It was a good system, but in a 2ton chassis, it was not a quick race car, and the hairpin just killed it. That engine (which Knoxvegas has) would do well in something you could get to less than a ton. (the engine itself is like 800lbs)

You'll need a baffled fuel cell at minimum. At RA the car would fuel starve in the corners after about 5 hours. (2 once the turbo was doing something. And it's still not getting enough fuel.)

(And yes, my right foot never left the floor for ~2 hours. Left foot brake. Left foot clutch. Sometimes both!)

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

The mighty Wagovan can do 4 hour stints these days on a 22 gallon cell in its current configuration, with respectable lap times.  It was capable of 2 1/2 hours with the OE 10 gallon tank and original engine - we finished 2nd overall in its second race many years ago. 

We would have done a single stop both days in its last race, but the judge was such a complete DB when we got a black flag that we packed up and left. 

I believe the car will be able to do a single stop each day and win at most tracks now that it's gotten some other issues sorted.  I wouldn't want to try to drive it slower in order try to make it without stopping as there would only be a couple of laps to be saved, plus it wouldn't be as much fun as it is now...

and yes, it's for sale....


                Stew

                     Lemoncello racing

Dirty Some Beaches - Lemoncello Racing

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

jfbeam wrote:
SpaceFrank wrote:

I would ask the Duff Beer guys what kind of economy they saw in their 240D with the original engine.

Something like 27mpg. We drove it like a tractor (fixed - "on the floor" - throttle) all weekend. Of course, I was the only one to get it over 60mph (60.2) all weekend. It was a good system, but in a 2ton chassis, it was not a quick race car, and the hairpin just killed it. That engine (which Knoxvegas has) would do well in something you could get to less than a ton. (the engine itself is like 800lbs)

You'll need a baffled fuel cell at minimum. At RA the car would fuel starve in the corners after about 5 hours. (2 once the turbo was doing something. And it's still not getting enough fuel.)

(And yes, my right foot never left the floor for ~2 hours. Left foot brake. Left foot clutch. Sometimes both!)

What's funny is that I have a 1983 240D as a sometimes-daily driver.  I pretty much drive it as you describe- foot to the floor constantly, left foot brake or clutch.  I do let off as the car approaches traffic signals, though, which is probably why I average 30 mpg with it.  ;-)

2008- 2010:  1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
2010-present:  1975 Ford LTD Landau...doesn't have a name?

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

therood wrote:
mechimike wrote:

Seems like it's a combination of engine and car.  Small engine, small car.  How about oneadem TDI's in a Miata?  Or even lighter, like some 50's French car (meeting minimum wheelbase, of course).

The rules state a fuel cell of a maximum size.  But what if the stock fuel tank is larger than that?  I'm thinking of a 2WD Suburban.  Get a weight waiver, and some of them had 40 gallon tanks.

I seem to recall the Smokey Unit Fiat intended to run all day non-stop, but it of course blew the hell up 13 minutes into the race. That's a TDI-swapped (I think?) Fiat 124 with a fuel cell. The one time that car worked the way it was supposed to, it finished 2nd, though I think they made one stop. It was also properly quick.

Smokey Unit has the added benefit of discouraging other drivers from putting up a fight after they get passed. The knoxvegas van had no problem keeping up with it when running right, but it was so damn terrible following it I backed way off and let them get a few turns ahead of me.

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Yep, buy a W123 240D and race all Saturday, drive to the gas station to top it off, then race all Sunday and drive it on the trailer.  It's also incredibly reliable, really easy to drive, and built like a tank. It is a bit slow though.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

rmcdaniels wrote:

Yep, buy a W123 240D and race all Saturday, drive to the gas station to top it off, then race all Sunday and drive it on the trailer.  It's also incredibly reliable, really easy to drive, and built like a tank. It is a bit slow though.

You're not helping my decision progress, what with having two w123 300TD wagons on my driveway right now, one of which runs fine but needs basically everything interior and a paint job/dent repair...

Curious how much consumption has increased between om616 and om617 turbo power?

#88-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140...
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15,'17. Inde '16,17. Other foolishness: Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12.

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

616: 6-8 hours at NCM
617 non-turbo: 5 hours at Road Atlanta, which has a lot of WOT
617 turbo: 2-3 hours at Road Atlanta

From a racing perspective, the 617 turbo is a legitimate C contender, while the 616 is a pretty good contender for the cool trophies, but requires some pretty good situational awareness and traffic management skills to operate safely.

I did not race it with the 616, I missed that race, but I did with both iterations of the 617. The turbo is the most fun, but the non-turbo was a nice balance of long driving stints and enough speed to not be horribly dangerous to myself and others. Put some sticky tires on it and it will carry decent speed, and baby the brakes.

If you've got a 300TD  that you can cage, then I highly recommend it. Just pull the boost reference line at the back of the intake manifold and cap the fitting if you want the non-turbo experience. We ran it like that for 1.5 races before we figured out there was supposed to be a hose in there.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Type44 wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

Yep, buy a W123 240D and race all Saturday, drive to the gas station to top it off, then race all Sunday and drive it on the trailer.  It's also incredibly reliable, really easy to drive, and built like a tank. It is a bit slow though.

You're not helping my decision progress, what with having two w123 300TD wagons on my driveway right now, one of which runs fine but needs basically everything interior and a paint job/dent repair...

I Honestly don't know how FATE could explain it to you any better without sending you a written invitation here.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/ … zoQAvD_BwE

Two, you say...

That guy

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

The rules may state 24 gallon fuel cell max, but you could go all Smokey Yunick on it and put in huge fuel lines. Tech won't pass you but you could .. conceal .. them. Somewhere.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Well, the ugly one already has one of those. No joke...

#88-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140...
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15,'17. Inde '16,17. Other foolishness: Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12.

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Add a Diesel generator and an extra fuel tank and you can go anywhere ...

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

So we get to see the diesel Benz version of this:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7347/9936422556_4ab1518bf8.jpg
?

That guy

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Type44 wrote:

Not that it's remotely possible driving a thirsty beast like ours smile

But when thinking about another build, I ponder trying to do something silly. Like avoid all chance of fueling-related penalties. Be turning laps from flag to flag with one driver change mid day. By running effiiciently enough that a refuel is simply not needed.

The recipe I'm thinking of is something really light, like a Fiat 128 or so. With the biggest cell allowable, and a tuned VW TDI from the '97 or so generation. Back of the napkin math says it's feasible.

Anyone already do it? NO fuel added during hot track hours?

My understanding is that the Helly Sh*tty 911, with stock 19 gallon tank and VW TDi, was able to run all day without refueling.  I hope I'm not spilling any trade secrets here.

bs
.

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

With feather foot noobs, we ran all weekend (minus an hour on Saturday morning) at inde on less than 25 gallons. Indications are that normal lead foot drivers will consume maybe twice as much fuel per hour.

That guy

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Well, I don't want to repeat our performance of avoiding refueling the way it happened.

Not making it to the first fuel stop isn't how I like to run.

There are still 20 gallons or so next to the garage after hauling home to Phx.

Next build, hopefully, not so fuel-friendly smile

#88-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140...
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15,'17. Inde '16,17. Other foolishness: Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12.

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Our Sentra-powered 924 could do about 6 hours on a 21-gallon stock tank. If you were to run it with something like a 2ZR-FXE, you'd easily see 8+ hours and it wouldn't be that much slower than our car.  Use 86+ chassis for bigger oem tank and better aerodynamics.

K Car Stalker

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Mine is a first generation 924, I think the stock tank is only 11 gallons. For the math geeks, Inde was 14 hours of "racing" for us. So something under 2gph with no turbo.

That guy

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

1st gen steel tank is 17 or 18 gallons, also pretty big. We used a later plastic tank because there's no metal 924/944 tank in this area that doesn't leak. This only works if you already have late style transaxle mount, though.

In general, a 944 is a pretty good design for endurance racing, if you remove all the german-ness out of it and resist the urge to run it with a 400hp LS motor.

K Car Stalker

Re: Anyone succeed in avoiding refueling altogether?

Not sure where I got that 11 gal number.

That means it took more than 27 gal and less than 32.

We could have probably done Saturday without fueling, but I didn't trust the suddenly working fuel gauge. If I'd realized the tank was that big, I'd have put more in that night and skated through Sunday.

That guy