Re: Ideas for Vintage Ford or AMC Entry - Houston, San Antonio?

mechimike wrote:
bulletpruf wrote:
mechimike wrote:

460 bored 60 over, so a 472.  Yeah, it's pretty fun dusting off 4 bangers on the straights.  We've also apparently stumbled into the cheapest powerplant per pound ever made; my local craigslist is littered with running 460's for $500 and under every day.  I picked up a 30k mile RV engine with a C6 for $400.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from.  Plentiful, and cheap, and not too difficult to hop up, either.

How does your car do in finishing races?  Gotta think that you beat on the brakes, suspension, trans, cooling system, etc, quite a bit.  Do you know how much it weighs?

Thanks,

Scott

Stock, it weighed something like 4400 lbs.  We had to get a waiver from the judges it's first race.  The first couple of races it ran on the stock 400 engine, which, while it only had 153 horsepower, was stone dead reliable.

Then we swapped in the first 460, out of a junked 68 Continental.

That engine had sat for awhile before we got it and we had numerous teething issues with it before finally popping a head gasket and cracking the block. 

The 460 that's in there now came out of an 80's Ford pickup (mileage unknown) and while it's down on power compared to that hi-comp '68 plant, it's been pretty reliable.  We have had overheating issues, eventually solved by flushing 30 years' worth of crap out of the block and using a washer in place of the thermostat.  We also installed the biggest aluminum radiator Summit sells. 

We do have a recurring problem blowing out intake manifold gaskets and subsequent oil leaks.  Still haven't nailed that down.  PCV system is all new and we're running an aftermarket aluminum intake with a 650 Edelbrock.

Suspension has a cop rear sway bar and a doubled-up front sway.  Cut springs in front, clamped in back.  No issues.

The 460 eventually blew up the stock rear (WER, crappy Ford rear that shares no parts with a 9"), swapped in a 9", blew up a chunk, replaced it.  For next race we're building a new chunk.

Steering is de-powered, otherwise stock.  Not as heavy as you'd think.

Tires are 400TW BF Goodrich 245/50R16 on steelies.  Once we got the alignment settings figured out, they wear pretty evenly.  We figure we should get 2 races out of a set. 

C6 trannies are like anvils.  Add a $30 shift kit and go.

Brakes are Mustang front, Chevy Impala (94-96) disc rear.  Hawk HT10 pads in front, Raybestos metal in back.  Car stops like no other 1975 LTD on the Planet.  About a race and a half per set of pads. 

We've stripped out all of the interior, gutted the doors and hood, removed the front bumper, and removed every bit of weight we could.  With a cage, fuel cell, and aluminum seat, I would guess it's somewhere around 3800 pounds now.  The 460 with an aluminum manifold weighs about what a 400 with an iron manifold does.

Sounds like a well-thought out car.

On the intake gaskets, get rid of the Fel-Pro's, if that's what you're using.  They are one of the few Fel-Pro products that suck.  Go with some old school Mr. Gasket gaskets.

Easy to make a lot more power on the 460 without dropping too much $$$.  Shave the heads to bring compression up (have to mill the intake, too), get a mild cam/lifter kit for it, change timing chain while you're at it.  That and see if you can find someone who will swap the 650 carb for a 750 or 800.  Headers will drop some weight and add some hp, of course, but you might have difficulty finding something that will fit.

What intake are you running?  I'm assuming it's a dual plane.

FYI - great 429/460 tech at www.460ford.com

Re: Ideas for Vintage Ford or AMC Entry - Houston, San Antonio?

Oh yeah, we did the timing chain swap on the truck plant- adds 8 degrees of advance back and something like 40 HP.  $40 fix.

Yeah, Fel-Pros.  The issue we have is the end gaskets- the rubber dealies that seal the front and back.  We've tried with RTV and gasket, and with RTV and no gasket.  Always eventually leaks.  Will try Mr. Gasket.

We're running an Edelbrock dual plane.  I ran the #s on the carbs and we don't really need more.  The 650 should be OK at our power levels. 

Best fix for the crappy compression is actually better pistons.  Quench on these is terrible- like 60 thou.  I can get some zero deck height pistons, port the exhausts on the stock D3Ve heads, and a 30 thou head gasket and improve quench plus get like 10:1 compression.  For $300 worth of pistons and a $200 cam, and get an honest 350HP out of it. 

And all the torque,  :-)

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Ideas for Vintage Ford or AMC Entry - Houston, San Antonio?

mechimike wrote:

Oh yeah, we did the timing chain swap on the truck plant- adds 8 degrees of advance back and something like 40 HP.  $40 fix.

Yeah, Fel-Pros.  The issue we have is the end gaskets- the rubber dealies that seal the front and back.  We've tried with RTV and gasket, and with RTV and no gasket.  Always eventually leaks.  Will try Mr. Gasket.

We're running an Edelbrock dual plane.  I ran the #s on the carbs and we don't really need more.  The 650 should be OK at our power levels. 

Best fix for the crappy compression is actually better pistons.  Quench on these is terrible- like 60 thou.  I can get some zero deck height pistons, port the exhausts on the stock D3Ve heads, and a 30 thou head gasket and improve quench plus get like 10:1 compression.  For $300 worth of pistons and a $200 cam, and get an honest 350HP out of it. 

And all the torque,  :-)

D3VE heads are pretty good; sounds like you know that already.  Just large chambers.  Agree that a few hours with the die grinder and exhaust ports will do you good.

Roger on having pistons too far in the hole; lousy quench.  You could get there from here with your existing pistons by decking the block.  And if you still need more compression, mill the heads, too.  Of course, then you're looking at the same amount of $$$ at the machine shop that you'd spend on the pistons, and you'd have to deal with the customary machine shop waiting period, too.   

Curious to hear what pistons you're referring to that will tighten up the clearance, though.  In my experience, these would be custom pistons and/or decking the block, too.

Shouldn't be too difficult to get 350 flywheel hp from this engine; might have 500 ft/lbs to go with it.

Scott

54 (edited by mechimike 2016-05-21 08:21 PM)

Re: Ideas for Vintage Ford or AMC Entry - Houston, San Antonio?

Summit Racing sells all kinds of pistons, many of them cheap.  And you can specify the pin spacing (forget the actual technical term), that is, how far from the wrist pin to the top of the piston. 

The fuel injected 460 pistons had more pin spacing (and thus, better quench) and are pretty cheap.  I'd rather swap pistons than deal with decking the block/heads and machining the intake.  Like you said, machine shop B-S.  I have a 30k mile motor that should need zero machine work if I find the right pistons. 

D0VE heads are about 74cc; D3VE are about 94cc.  But the '0' heads are scarce and getting scarcer. I have two sets of the '3's on hand to play with.  Even if I can only get it up around 9:1 with pistons, that's still good enough to start playing with moderate bumpsticks and making some power (over 300) in the 3k to 4.5k RPM range, and torque from 2k to 4.5k.  Everyone squawks about peak power but I'm more interested in area under the curve (sorry, engineer).  If I can get 300HP or more across most of the usable rev range I'll be happier than if it peaks at 450 at 5k where I'll never use it.  When you only have 3 gears and a pretty tall rear end your goals are a bit different. 

--Mike

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Ideas for Vintage Ford or AMC Entry - Houston, San Antonio?

mechimike wrote:

Summit Racing sells all kinds of pistons, many of them cheap.  And you can specify the pin spacing (forget the actual technical term), that is, how far from the wrist pin to the top of the piston. 

The fuel injected 460 pistons had more pin spacing (and thus, better quench) and are pretty cheap.  I'd rather swap pistons than deal with decking the block/heads and machining the intake.  Like you said, machine shop B-S.  I have a 30k mile motor that should need zero machine work if I find the right pistons. 

D0VE heads are about 74cc; D3VE are about 94cc.  But the '0' heads are scarce and getting scarcer. I have two sets of the '3's on hand to play with.  Even if I can only get it up around 9:1 with pistons, that's still good enough to start playing with moderate bumpsticks and making some power (over 300) in the 3k to 4.5k RPM range, and torque from 2k to 4.5k.  Everyone squawks about peak power but I'm more interested in area under the curve (sorry, engineer).  If I can get 300HP or more across most of the usable rev range I'll be happier than if it peaks at 450 at 5k where I'll never use it.  When you only have 3 gears and a pretty tall rear end your goals are a bit different. 

--Mike

I hear what you are saying on the power under the curve.  With a heavy automatic car, that's got to be critical.

Compression height is the term you're looking for -- http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Pistons … eight.aspx

D0VE heads are indeed getting harder to find, same with CJ and PI.  Frankly PI (D20AB or something like that) would be nice for your combo, too, if you could scrounge some up.

Scott

Re: Ideas for Vintage Ford or AMC Entry - Houston, San Antonio?

Edited the first post to note that I'm moving from Naples Italy back to the states on 1 July.  We are headed to San Antonio.  Anyone in the San Antonio/Houston area interested in racing some vintage Ford iron in November?  I could jump on an existing team or form a new one.  I have a very well-equipped garage, fab skills, and have some funds available.

Probably can't have a project at my house; garage is full of vintage iron already (68 GTO convt, 66 Fairlane GT convt, 72 Alfa Romeo GT, 71 Javelin road race project) and if I brought another home, I would be spending all my disposable income on a divorce attorney...

Scott

Re: Ideas for Vintage Ford or AMC Entry - Houston, San Antonio?

Bump...