1 (edited by SpaceFrank 2018-03-20 03:35 PM)

Topic: Various fuel cell questions

EDIT: Ignore all the below. I decided I'd go the safer, more expensive, and less complicated route, so I bought an FIA-rated ATL 22-gallon Sports Cell from the Lemons store with an attached ATL Remote Fill Plate, plus an ATL Recessed Fender Fill Cap.

Now that my wallet really hurts, I need to figure out what AN fittings and hoses to buy.

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We finally decided to put a fuel cell in the Dart. After looking around a while, we found this one. It's an RCI, and it is not FIA-rated. We plan to put it in roughly the same location as the stock tank with its own cage built into the trunk floor (not connected to the roll cage, obviously). It'll be separated from the driver with a sheet metal firewall. I like the wedge shape, as we have the vertical room for it and the smaller floor area should reduce starvation from fuel slosh. Anyone have experience with RCI fuel cells?

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/RCI-22-G … 68831.html

It doesn't look like this unit includes foam. What foam do people recommend that will put up with ethanol-laced gas for a reasonable amount of time?

We want to run a remote fill hose, probably to the C-pillar. Wire- or nylon-reinforced hose, the bigger the better. What hardware is recommended for this? I assume I'll need a filler neck for the tank side as well as a flange with a cap for the fill side.

Since we'd be running the fill hose to the C-pillar, it would exit the trunk area that's protected by the firewall. I know I've heard of people surrounding the fill hose on a non-FIA setup with metal piping or conduit; does anyone have pictures of such a setup?

We've already been talking to John Pagel, but I'd like to get a parts list together so I can give him more specifics on our plan. I realize I could probably get some of these answers with an exhaustive forum/internet search, but I didn't get much from a brief one. This has been a long week, and I'm tired of thinking about open-ended questions. If you have any of this knowledge or info on hand, thank you in advance for making my life easier.

Re: Various fuel cell questions

We put one in that passed all tech inspections.   I used 1" square tube for the cage.  Bolted cage to 1/8" plate like you would the roll cage.  Just buy foam from speedway.  It holds up better than rumors say.  Be sure to put a big ass filter between the tank and the pump.  I did not and ruined a pump.  Pump jammed up with foam crumbs, no way to get them all out of the tank.

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Re: Various fuel cell questions

If it is FIA stamp or tag you can use the metal box it is in  as the fire wall . and use the fire rated hoses for fill and breather but use steel braided lines for gas pick up and return. If you do not follow this you must have a build fire wall between the fuel tank and driver! just ask for the FAI tag for the fuel cell it cost $50 more ask summit tech.

4 (edited by Mulry 2018-01-19 03:07 PM)

Re: Various fuel cell questions

Welcome to the fuel cell club, a/k/a set your wallet on fire smile

You'll actually want 2 fuel filters, one pre-pump (coarser, to prevent fuel cell foam from getting into the pump) and then a finer one after to make sure that anything small doesn't get to your carbs on the Dart

You might want to consider just running the fuel neck to the top/rear of the trunk and avoid compromising the firewall that way.

Fuel safe fuel neck hose can be pretty pricey, FYI. I got some Coast Guard-rated stuff for boats because it was the best price compromise that was also fuel safe. You could use the clear reinforced hose, but it's really not rated for that.

You can find a lot of remote fill stuff at Aircraft Spruce. I've also had luck with Speedway Motors on that too -- but the remote neck/flange is the toughest piece to find. I've not had great luck at that which is why we still flip the trunk open to fill on the e36.

If you can keep fuel lines out of the passenger area of the car, you don't have to use stainless braided hose, which is nice because that stuff is heavy and a PITA to build. I highly recommend using only PTFE-lined fuel hose because the alcohol in pump gas just wears out the standard rubber liners. Those are fine for oil and other fluids, but PTFE-only for fuel lines IMHO. I really like the XRP ProPlus hose and reusable hose ends for this application, it's better and slightly less expensive than the Earl's UltraPro line. I get mine through ANPlumbing.com, but I recommend calling them on the phone versus the website if you can't find what you need. They are super friendly on the phone and very, very helpful.

Oh, and make sure you install your fuel pump so that it is below the bottom level of the fuel pump so that it naturally siphons. Fuel pumps don't like to have to suck the fuel and they don't work very well (for long) if they have to do that. Learned that one the hard way.

Hit me up if you have any more specific questions.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Various fuel cell questions

Watch how high you put the remote fill opening.  Remember, you will be lifting 5 gallons of fuel and turning the jug upside down.  That can get difficult if the opening is too high.

For the hardware you can contact my friend Korey (kwashinger@sriperformance.com).  They handle new and used equipment.  You can also call him at 877-604-8077.  Just tell him Rob Keller referred you.

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Re: Various fuel cell questions

To make our lives easier and prevent as many questions from being asked at tech, I decided to shell out extra for an FIA-rated ATL cell. I also bought an ATL RF108 fender fill cap from the Lemons store. It looks like I can get a good SS braided fuel hose and all the AN fittings I need from the site Pat mentioned. Then all I need is a serviceable filter and reinforced hoses for the remote fill and vent line.

What I'm curious about now is what I should do with the drain line from the recessed fender fill cap. I don't want fuel draining back into the car, nor do I want it splashing out if we just cap that drain off. Can I run a reinforced line from here to tee into the vent line near the cell? I could run it to the return fitting on the cell, but when we eventually upgrade to EFI that won't be available any more. Would the fittings on this line need to be threaded AN fittings?

Re: Various fuel cell questions

DRVOLKS wrote:

If it is FIA stamp or tag you can use the metal box it is in  as the fire wall . and use the fire rated hoses for fill and breather but use steel braided lines for gas pick up and return. If you do not follow this you must have a build fire wall between the fuel tank and driver! just ask for the FAI tag for the fuel cell it cost $50 more ask summit tech.

I just had to reread the rules.  I feel like I'd still want a bulkhead for peace of mind and a little less hassle from the judges though.

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Re: Various fuel cell questions

So I'm working on the Lego set of connectors for hooking up the fuel line. The cell has a -8 AN fitting, and the 3/8" stainless hard line under the car will get a -6 AN tube nut (with a flare). Pre-made SS-braid, PTFE-lined hoses are about the same price for -8 vs. -6, so I'm wondering where I should put the reducer fitting. If I use a -8 hose I can eliminate one fitting from the stackup, which I like for eliminating leak paths. Is there any disadvantage to using a larger hose? Maybe taking longer for the pump to get primed?

Also for the fill and vent hose, what are people using for see-through reinforced hose? I want these hoses to be see-through so we can see when the tank is getting full. (On the Rambler, for example, fuel would start bubbling up the vent hose before overflowing into the fill hose, which was a nice indicator.) It's an FIA cell with no bulkhead, so the hose has to be wire- or fiber-reinforced. I need 2.25" for the remote fill and probably 3/8" for the vent line.

Re: Various fuel cell questions

There was at least one high-profile fuel fire (Espenlaub) in which the clear fill hose was implicated.  Some in the tech community frown upon the use of said hose and prefer the good old fashioned black stuff.

However, ATL (for example) does sell clear vinyl fill and vent hose.

Re: Various fuel cell questions

What was the reason for the hose being a concern?
Rigidity?
Static buildup?
Pinholeing?
Easy to install incorrectly?

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Re: Various fuel cell questions

I'm not planning to use clear vinyl hose; I'm planning to use fiber- or wire-reinforced hose of some fuel-safe translucent material so it's less likely to tear open during a collision. I appreciate the safety concerns, but my plan already got an email thumbs-up from The Evil One.

At this point I'm trying to shop for parts, and I'm wondering what other people have used along these lines that passed tech. Also where they bought it without spending an arm and a leg.

Re: Various fuel cell questions

Guildenstern wrote:

What was the reason for the hose being a concern?
Rigidity?
Static buildup?
Pinholeing?
Easy to install incorrectly?

I am interested. We are doing an installation and are using the clear hose that is approved for fuel.

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Re: Various fuel cell questions

chaase wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

What was the reason for the hose being a concern?
Rigidity?
Static buildup?
Pinholeing?
Easy to install incorrectly?

I am interested. We are doing an installation and are using the clear hose that is approved for fuel.

Just because the hose is approved for fuel that doesn't mean it will pass tech. I've seen numerous teams fail tech because they used non-reinforced hose on their filler neck. Pagel doesn't care if you bought it from ATL and it's approved for use with fuel. If it's non-reinforced hose, you're going to fail tech.

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14 (edited by chaase 2018-03-22 05:25 AM)

Re: Various fuel cell questions

piper.gras wrote:
chaase wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

What was the reason for the hose being a concern?
Rigidity?
Static buildup?
Pinholeing?
Easy to install incorrectly?

I am interested. We are doing an installation and are using the clear hose that is approved for fuel.

Just because the hose is approved for fuel that doesn't mean it will pass tech. I've seen numerous teams fail tech because they used non-reinforced hose on their filler neck. Pagel doesn't care if you bought it from ATL and it's approved for use with fuel. If it's non-reinforced hose, you're going to fail tech.

I just re-read the rules and you are absolutely correct. We are using this very thick, clear tubing and that will have to change.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner